IGM. I stand by the first post. What needs changing?
Abstaining until the proper vote.This CMD stuff is just a rather silly sideshow.
There is only one question or not - do you want to be part of a Europe that involves full monetary, fiscal and political union - Yes or No
You seem to say that the referendum is going to be irrelevant, we should ignore it and instead wait for the second referendum.
That’s definitely counter to your current view - although I accept you may just have failed to communicate your actual view properly.
But do an experiment for UK only - google Brexit and note links on first page.
Express, Telegraph, Guardian, Independent. In that order.
That may be because I read the Brexy press quite a lot - know your enemy and all.
IGM
You misinterpret - I talked about a proper vote NOT a second referendum.
My point which was repeated a few times - the EU cannot survive in its current format so the vote is/was a sideshow.
For complete clarity I even stated what a vote should have been on. You quote it but ignore it oddly.
But thanks for the test result as that is interesting. When I google brexit the first page is always dominated by guardian and Indy links. I read a lot of moaning press for a laugh so perhaps that explains the google result
THM - I don’t ignore what you suggest the second vote should be on - actually I think it’s reasonably sensible.
I merely note that you though the referendum to be a sideshow and now it’s a vote that must be followed to protect democracy.
I too regard the referendum as not a proper vote (ok now I’m heading for trolling).
Rugby’s good at the moment.
Just misquoting not trolling 😉 find the word second in my post
CMDs rhetioric about reforming Europe was the sideshow.
All clear. No need to misquote even for effect 😉
the EU cannot survive in its current format
This sort of statement is trivial and pointless. It's like saying the Euro is doomed to failure. Fundamentally unfalsifiable because the person making the assertion never indicates the time scale nor what "failure" actually means in reality(*). In the long run we are all dead and the EU has not stayed static in any specific format for more than (mumble) years in the past, so of course it will continue to change and evolve in the future. The ref question was over whether we wanted to be part of that evolution or watch from the sidelines.
(*) If one of the project fear-mongers were to say "the Euro will not be used as a currency in 2 years" then we'd have a basis for debate, and a large bet. But they never do say anything like that, because to them, the "failure" of the euro is a shibboleth rather than a meaningful description of reality.
PS - I could be persuaded by full union by the way. Particularly if the Germans get to run the economy. 😉
I couldn’t because the euro area does not fulfill the criteria for an optimum currency area. Hence it’s failure. But we have discussed this before 😉
THM - there is no misquote. I lifted your words on a cut and paste.
Misinterpret perhaps?
Cross post - yes we’ve discussed it and I wasn’t convinced by your argument- but that’s fine
Sorry, I'm kind of late to this and the thread is frankly too long to read.
@ Team Hurt More - can you please explain for a remoaner like me how all of the negatives already stacking up for the economy and the many more being forecast (OBR), are going to be solved by Brexit.
Furthermore, to nudge me out of my smug, liberal, metropolitan, elite (but really, Just About Managing) bubble, can you explain in concrete terms how my life will be better in 2 years time, 5 years time and 10 years time as a result of Brexit. I could really do with the emotional boost.
I'm still struggling to see how the bogus arguments about sovereignty are going to make a positive contribution to my day-to-day life, or indeed those of the poor saps who voted for this out of understandable but misplaced anger. They should be railing against the financial services industry (in the broadest sense), but we can argue about that for another day.
And @THM, if this task is beyond you, please feel to get @Jambalya or some other Brexiteer to do your bidding - you all seem such hearty, caring types that I am sure you will all have each other's back and a plan to make sure that no-one gets left behind. Oh, wait...
Why me? I voted remain and expect a negative hit. I am preparing for that mainly. The only difference might be that I believe we will come through it without the doomsday scenarios imagined by remoaners. You will have seen the massive exaggeration to date ^
Colour me shocked.
Having dipped in and out of this, at no point THM did I think you were a remoaner or that you thought this was all a terrible idea.
*note to self - you're gonna have to read this more closely and master the detail
True. You will also note that the leavers have been bullied off here so I doubt you will get an answer at all
Yeah, fair enough.
I think the issue is that the Brexit arguments are so intellectually flimsy that there are few people who can make them stand up to offer the reassurance that at least 48% of the voting 70% want.
So, STW is like the rest of the UK... the leavers and their positive visions of the future (assuming they have them, because they must, right?) are M.I.A.
Still, makes me wonder who the true snowflakes are?
Like I said. The "failure" of the euro as a shibboleth rather than as any meaningful description of reality. I'm currently getting paid in euros and quite happy about that.
the leavers have been bullied off here
I weep for all these fragile leavers either on here or in the rest of the country who are being bullied by the force of the bleeding obvious. It's a good sign though. The more they retreat, the more chance there is of reversing this ridiculous decision, because lets be honest, that's what needs to happen.
Not sure how calling people out for basically BS counts as being bullied.
This was part of the problem during the referendum. Essentially unsubstantiated claims were presented as facts so both sides got equal air time. The leavers then went awol the next morning.
I'm currently amused about Gove whining about social media leading to bias. It was fine fine when his 'side' were the culprits.
Anyway onwards and upwards!
DP - oops!
Capn - good job you are a leaver otherwise your comments would otherwise be picked up as being selfish, overly focused on money and ignoring the plight of the young and vulnerable who have been made to suffer on the basis of a flawed ideology.
They even had to suffer proper austerity not our pretend version. Imagine that. Europeans believe that is the right thing to do. Amazingly awful isn’t it?
THM, care to clarify what you mean by the "failure" of the euro, given that it still exists, seems pretty stable and is used by several major economies?
Unemployment, asset bubbles, social deprivation, increased inequality, broken banks, wage pressure, real austerity, democratic deficits, large and sustained problem of non performing loans.
That’s just for starters. As elsewhere covered up by stealing off savers and the prudent
But are those things the fault of the Euro? We have all of that in the UK, and in Australia, neither of which has the Euro. Is it not more about the fact that free-market capitalism is fundamentally flawed, that service economies don't have enough depth to sustain themselves, that trickle down simply doesn't work and that as the proportion of economies dominated by financial services - that we are all told to bow down and worship - inequality and all other measures increase.
Seems to me that we should be looking more to Germany and Sweden than anywhere else for a blueprint of how to run a country successfully. That's not to say they don't have challenges, but on balance I would much rather Britain paid attention to the Swedish and German way, rather than the American way or perish the thought, the Singaporean way.
The euro was built to benefit the Germans at the expense of others. In that respect a tremendous success.
Read Varoufakis on the minotour and why the weak must suffer. Two good books
Odd to want a Swedish housing bubble bet each to their own
The Swedish housing bubble is not as bad as the UK one, and the Swedes have not fully abandoned the sense that a house is a home - whereas here a house has become the core topic of conversation at dinner parties. A house should never be an investment, it should be a machine for living in.
And the property bubble in the UK is directly responsible for our horrible productivity problems. The banks have stopped lending to businesses who would make a sensible return, in favour of perilous mortgage lending.
And businesses have stopped investing in business in favour of property and financial engineering - value extraction rather than value creation.
The Swedes have their issues to sort, but they are still investing in business and people.
The euro was built to benefit the Germans
At last we get to what's really driving this. Can't have those Germans doing better than us. Who won the bloody war after all!
To be honest I have no idea if that is true or not. All sounds a bit conspiratorial to me though. Is it not just the case that Germany in the last 30 years has been much better governed than our fair country, and has taken some long term strategic decisions rather than simply turning everything into a quest for shareholder profits via the shortest route?
Unemployment, asset bubbles, social deprivation, increased inequality, broken banks, wage pressure, real austerity, democratic deficits, large and sustained problem of non performing loans.
Remember THM that when we checked the unemployment figures, particularly youth unemployment, it turned out to have more to do with education culture and how figures were counted.
The rest I have no opinion on whether the Euro was a cause or just incidental - mainly because I haven’t checked and I don’t deal with it daily.
No it didn’t.
Go back and check
No need I study it every day.
Australia, New Zealand, the US and Brazil making noises about the UK not getting into the WTO unless they get favourable deals. And you can be sure that if they do, others will follow. Another brexit fantasy crumbles.
Australia, New Zealand, the US and Brazil
Do "they need us more than we need them" too?
teamhurtmore - Member
No need I study it every day.
Then you’re not as good as you think you are.
Seriously, the majority of the difference in the 15-24 year old range was education and given as a second year at university in Italy I was a year younger than the first years that pretty much makes the difference in Italy at least. In Spain you may have more of a point but it’s still not clear cut.
However If you’re sure of yourself then there’s no need entertain my thoughts - of course the truly confident would consider them.
Unemployment, asset bubbles, social deprivation, increased inequality, broken banks, wage pressure, real austerity, democratic deficits, large and sustained problem of non performing loans.
THM, are you seriously claiming that none of these things exist in the UK?
You will also note that the leavers have been bullied off here so I doubt you will get an answer at all.
No. They have not. Everyone is challenged when they post here, no matter their views. Some don't like their views on this subject matter being scrutinised. On all sides.
THM, are you seriously claiming that none of these things exist in the UK?
Sterling failure is fine. It's "our" failure.
the leavers have been bullied off here
They won we lost I just want to see what their victory actually looks like.
and we note that you have bullied someone of here yet you still feel the need to lectures others 🙄note that the leavers have been bullied off here
WHen it was you did you apologise to them ?offer an olive branch?say how bad this was ? They name checked you so I assume you must have?
DO say what you did seeing as bullying is so bad and you despise hypocrites. What did you do again?
HFCAY
Over 40 leavers declared they would be voting out in the first pages of this thread. Some have left the forum completely, some rarely post on politics threads anyhow. Some were people theat were already in the habit of making fools of themselves and some have made fools of themselves over the course of this thread. A tiny number continue to contribute.
The arguments in favour either don't stand up to scrutiny or demonstrate character traits that people are rightly ashamed to air in public.
Having dipped in and out of this, at no point THM did I think you were a remoaner or that you thought this was all a terrible idea.
Ah you haven't been watching closely. THM was indeed a remainer but feels the correct approach in a democratic society is to accept the will of the people and move on, accommodating the result in the best way possible. I, on the other hand, am a crotchety, cynical, old **** who will not shift from my stance that the whole thing is disastrous and should be opposed at all cost.
Aye that is it in a nutshell and both are fine within a democracy
the rest is just the noise of someone going on about name calling and the need for respectful debate via the method of insults and name calling.
Personally I think jamby got "bullied" with facts and the personal stuff was due to the repetition of claims we all knew were untrue.
I think it would help if we a just had a debate as this is just sniping around a theme
Some magnificent whataboutery here https://eand.co/the-rise-and-fall-of-nations-6ff1d9a6b044 to combat THM's whataboutery yesterday with regards to Sweden's housing bubble.
It's a good piece from American economist Umair Haque - he's always worth reading.
[img] 
[/img]The Politburo would like to remind people that discussion needs to stop.
#Brexit #ForThePeopleToOpressThePeople
Ireland will veto anything that involves a hard border. Is that good or bad?
Since the UK has already ruled out a hard border between NI and RoI, there's no need for Ireland to use their veto.
All we are waiting for is the solution that achieves a hard border between France and England, that does not involve a hard border between France and RoI, or Roi and NI, or NI and England. Seems easy enough. I'm sure THM will be along shortly to explain how the "grown-ups" are working it all out in secret without bothering our tiny minds over the details.
