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I wonder if the Bombardier thing will be it?
Bombardier selling Norin Ireland has been coming for ages and is squat to do with Brexit.
They had some useful tax breaks by locating in Northern Ireland.
The US* decided they didn't much like that sort of thing, because tax breaks are dang un-American** so the US government, entirely of their own volition decided to impose an enormous customs tax fee on Bombardier imports into the US, in order to make sure that US firms* were competing on an even***** playing field.
PS That's the US that is going to be our very best friend after Brexit, demonstrating how competitive they will allow our exports to be in world markets.
PPS Details may not all be 100% correct, but you get the gist.
*Boeing
**Boeing didn't get any
Boeing lobbied them
*Boeing
*****heavily in favour of Boeing
You hold a vote, one side wins, you implement the result. It really is that simple in the minds of the vast majority of people.
"There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."
Bombardier selling Norin Ireland has been coming for ages and is squat to do with Brexit.
Mebbe, but the lack of buyers lining up to take over a firm outside the EU may have something to do with Brexit.
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit? How does Brexit help a labour vision for the UK, or how does the UK impinge on that vision / not being in the EU allow that vision to happen more easily / at all?
A deal will be agreed, there will be howling from the chattering classes at how unfair it is that the referendum result hasn’t been overturned, and the rest of the country will breathe a sigh of relief that they can move on to other more important issues.
I know Im labouring the point but this either misdirection or ignorance over what comes next with Brexit is quite annoying
looking back at the last 3 years of farce, what or who have you seen that makes you think that the next much more complex & lengthy negotiations will be any less destructive or divisive?
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit? How does Brexit help a labour vision for the UK
The EU is an evil capitalist conspiracy to oppress the working man. Once free of its tyrannical rule the UK will be reborn as a socialist utopia
I know... completely laughable, isn't it? But the Corbynite left truly believe this shite
Anyone seen ninfan lately ?
from yougovs latest polling
yet still corbyn wants it to happen...
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit?
Votes (in their white working class heartlands).
The EU is an evil
capitalistsocialist conspiracy to oppress theworkingfree=-thinking entrepreneurial man. Once free of its tyrannical rule the UK will be reborn as asocialistfree market capitalist utopia
what or who have you seen that makes you think that the next much more complex & lengthy negotiations will be any less destructive or divisive?
Totally agree, It's going to be extremely difficult. The crux of the issue though is that having asked the voters what they want, and got an answer, the politicians are now duty-bound to enact it irrespective of how difficult it is. The voters are simply not going to accept the excuse 'sorry, we should never have asked your opinion in the first place, so we're going to pretend it never happened'. I don't want to labour the point either, but any party which says this will not be voted into government.
So do we think, then, that the prospect of asking those same people "now we know what it looks like, so do you still want it?" will be similarly unacceptable?
I can't see it...
Anyway.... in some positive news about Europe, the delightful Tommy Robinson was round our way yesterday, campaigning to be MEP for the north west, and somebody covered him in Strawberry Milkshake 😀
Milksheikh, shurely ?
The voters are simply not going to accept the excuse ‘sorry, we should never have asked your opinion in the first place, so we’re going to pretend it never happened’.
Another spot of wisdom from H L Mencken:
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
campaigning to be MEP for the north west, and somebody covered him in Strawberry Milkshake
https://twitter.com/JLRFB/status/1123689058218184704
Trying to work on a Yaxley intolerant pun but it's not quite there yet.
Mebbe, but the lack of buyers lining up to take over a firm outside the EU may have something to do with Brexit.
To be fair, purchasing a factory (and staff rota) which produces high value specialist components for a specific customer, and will require significant re-tooling - even assuming the prospective purchaser knows what they will do with it - is not going to be a quick sale in any economic climate.
I can’t see it…
It's clearly more probably than revocation, but still has huge dangers. As I've said before, if a new vote is to be held, it needs first to have clear support in the country. Can you honestly say it has?
Even then there's still a huge uncertainty it resolve anything. Seeing as it will be a confirmatory vote on a deal with no alternative leave option, we can expect an orchestrated boycott campaign from Farage's mob and the tory hardliners. No doubt the remain ultras will celebrate this as it will result in a remain vote but all it will do is start the whole cycle again but with Farage's party strengthened even further.
are now duty-bound to enact it
Do those that voted for "it" think that the "it" being enacted is the "it" that they voted for?
No doubt the remain ultras will celebrate this as it will result in a remain vote but all it will do is start the whole cycle again but with Farage’s party strengthened even further.
I don't care what "ultras" think… I do think the public need a say on what we do next though… rather then their "will" of 2016 being used to force through a Brexit that they didn't have sight of back then, and may not want now.
Also… whatever happens next, even if we give up EU membership, the whole "not real Brexit" and "not what we voted for" narratives are ready for Farage and the Bannon linked Tories to exploit. Leave or Remain that is going to happen. You can see that already.
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit?
As a left wing person there are loads of reasons I would not join the EU. However as we are already in it those reasons don't outweigh the impact of leaving. If my priorities were slightly different then I could be pro Brexit.
Barry Gardiner nicely summing up why I won't be voting labour anytime soon
Gardiner later told the station that Labour voters had already accepted that Brexit must be delivered by voting for a pro-Brexit 2017 general election manifesto.
Driving through Bradford today - far fewer Labour posters up than there usually is for elections (still more than for anyone else, but they usually dominate by a far greater margin). Is this a sign that Labour isn't succeeding in its attempts to be all things to all men, or just disinterest in local elections and politics in general, I wonder?
I still can’t get my head around what you lot don’t understand about holding a referendum and then enacting the result
Well clearly you haven't been listening.
As a left wing person there are loads of reasons I would not join the EU
Please expand. I see the right wing argument but not the left. The only left wing argument is an extreme one where by you cut off the country with protectionism and try and have some sort of fantasy self sufficient country.
Real question btw not a piss take.
As he says though, this is trumped by the need to prevent the Tory nutters from having the opportunity to pursue their version of it.
I don’t really disagree with the case against the EU. I’m a strong believer in devolving power and removing coercive power of governments and corporations. The EU is the opposite to that. But it does have it’s benefits, and right now the real threat is from US asset strippers not EU paternalists.
Sadly Paul mason failed at the first few hurdles there
The Laval/Viking judgements have stopped eu workers striking when & where exactly? It's just as much a myth as bendy bananas..
But he's absolutely right brexit is a dream of the Tory elite, & you'd be very naïve if you thought that removing the protections it affords us won't be exploited by future right wing government s, it's madness that Corbyn & co won't oppose it
Just for dazh as apparently these things haven't been posted enough in this thread.
This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented.
The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there is no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy.
Some bloke called Winston Churchill.
Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion
And the bit from Edmund Burke (he was an MP and stuff).
You need to fact check that Guardian article, Dazh. In particular I'd like you to point me at which EU treaty is refered to here.
Its central bank is committed, by treaty, to favour deflation and stagnation over growth.
It's more anti-EU bollocks but this time it's in the Guardian. The ECB's objective is and always has been managed inflation and sustainable growth.
Just for dazh
Ha! I know all about how representative democracy works thanks, hence why I mostly disagree with it. Always nice to be patronised though with the results of a google search. Let me return the favour...
https://libcom.org/library/case-against-representative-democracy
As he says though, this is trumped by the need to prevent the Tory nutters from having the opportunity to pursue their version of it.
I think we're in the situation now though where the Brexit fiasco has handed control of the Tory party over to Moggy and the ERG "ultras" regardless of the outcome of the next few months and any further referenda or elections the nutters will own the party.
Best yet if you are a right leaning Tory you don't really take ownership until May has finally finished making a bollox of the whole affair, so you can stay relatively untarnished by it...
Not only that Labour's obvious splits and failure to offer an effective opposition means despite it all, a new Conservative leader will probably still win the next election...
The thing is its not really about Brexit anymore, that's simply the cover for re-drawing the party boundaries and setting up the players for a decade of divisive domestic politics. Whether we're in or out of the EU is now almost irrelevant...
Thankfully whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant because it's the system that we have.
And for reference just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean you speak for the rest of us; so if you'd kindly pack it the **** in with fallacious nonsensical propaganda dressed up in some kind of hero of the people narrative because reality doesn't suit your agenda that would be great.
****ing trolls.
As an aside I fully appreciate the system we have isn't perfect - but neither are the alternatives. The issue around Brexit should serve as a prime example of what happens in a direct democracy and how it can fracture society - which is why it isn't a great alternative.
The ECB’s objective is and always has been managed inflation and sustainable growth
Bit like the Bundesbank then. Coincidence.
doesn’t mean you speak for the rest of us
I would never presume or hope to speak for people such as yourself. 🙂
Ha! I know all about how representative democracy works thanks, hence why I mostly disagree with it.
Interesting statement Dazh. Seems a fairly sensible way to do democracy to me, but what do you prefer?
I’m a strong believer in devolving power and removing coercive power of governments and corporations.
I know all about how representative democracy works thanks, hence why I mostly disagree with it.
There are few, if any, positive things to come out of this. But it’s restored my faith in this country that throwing milkshakes over Tommy Robinson seems to have become a thing
My adoptive home town started it and my actual home town has carried it on. I’m so proud of where I’m from
* right off you racist *s!
https://twitter.com/julian5news/status/1124006078138736641?s=21
The left wing case for brexit
Sounds as mental as the right wing nut jobs.
Seems a fairly sensible way to do democracy to me, but what do you prefer?
Edukator has already twigged. 😉
Posted the wrong link earlier but this sums it up better than I can describe. Try to see past the anarchist label though, it has too many silly connotations.
in the context of Europe, this could work much better under a federal system with more transparent democratic structures. The way the EU works now though is barely distinguishable from a dictatorship, even if it is a relatively benign one (as long as you're not a debtor nation as Greece proved).
Greece would be in a similar position to Turkey had it never joined the EU and Euro.
The way the EU works now though is barely distinguishable from a dictatorship
Sorry - what?
You know those dictatorships where the elected heads of each member state meet to set the direction it should take and each nominate someone to a 'Commission' - the leader and members of which are approved by a parliament. This parliament is made up of elected representatives of each member state that the public can vote on - damn them allowing me a choice.
And they are so horribly nontransparent that they have press conferences every day, and the committee meetings are live streamed on the internet and available in numerous languages.
I mean some of these dictatorships even have a website that explains all this, you might even be able to google things as well.
It's awful really.
Bombardier selling Norin Ireland has been coming for ages and is squat to do with Brexit.
That's as may be, but my point was about public perception, not fact.
The way the EU works now though is barely distinguishable from a dictatorship,
Im now starting to think dazh is perpetrating an elaborate troll, thats just too silly to be genuine
Labour vote holding up well in Sunderland I see..
LDem: 42.7% (+42.7)
Lab: 23.3% (-26.8)
UKIP: 16.6% (-3.6)
Con: 12.6% (-11.9)
Looks like Remain parties are doing rather well.
Where is the will of the people?!?
Labour don't seem being that baldly. Big losses for the Tories while the lib dems gain. Maybe labour fence sitting is working. That bigger loss in Sunderland (and subsequent lib dem gain) is interesting, that was a pro brexit area. Wonder if they fancy a second referendum?
Maybe labour fence sitting is working
They are still losing seats, while the most incompetent government in history is ****ing up everything it touches, they should be 300-400 up by now.
The frustrating thing so far is trying to find out if "others" contain large inroads for changeuk and/or brexit party.
Lib Dem’s killing it in local elections, Remain indies doing well I hear, Tories taking a kicking, Labour no doubt saying “yeah we’re doing less-worse than the Tories” like a sort of victory as-per. UKIP left in tatters.
Will this be a turning point? Will it balls, May and Corbyn will be shouting that we’re all just mad that they haven’t delivered Brexit yet and they should work together to get it down before EU elections...
Well, looks like my Lib Dem anti-Brexit protest vote scuppered labour here in the Wirral Riviera.
Labour majority but no overall control.
I saw a retweet this morning along the lines of "it makes a refreshing change to wake up to an election result and be fairly pleased". It's been a while....
I saw a retweet this morning along the lines of “it makes a refreshing change to wake up to an election result and be fairly pleased”. It’s been a while….
That is a very good point!
Is the ‘age of stupid’ coming to an end?
Mogg now has a LibDem councillor. I suspect that he'll now be one of many MPs now considering a snap General Election a very dangerous thing (for themselves).
The frustrating thing so far is trying to find out if “others” contain large inroads for changeuk and/or brexit party.
It does not. Both parties were set up in time for the European Elections, but not these local ones. UKIP were taking seats off of Labour last night before I went to bed. Lots of gains for independents at the expense of both Tories and Labour.
The way the EU works now though is barely distinguishable from a dictatorship
And yet one to which you claim to be, personally, a ‘hardcore remainer’ whilst only being ‘reluctantly’ dragged along by Brexit?
There are some inconsistencies appearing and something has a bit a fishy niff to it........
The will of the people in 2019 is very different to the 2016 version.
Last nights results are appalling for labour. At this point in the electoral cycle, against this shambolic government, they should be gaining massively
I imagine Jeremy, Seamus and Len will now be pretty determined to get their Brexit stitch-up sorted ASAP to try and stop the EU elections taking place, where both main parties will get (deservedly) hammered
I thought Labour were going to get punished, but not this hard.
Sunderland is ****ing hilarious.
It's like the electorate are just going out of their way to do the most unexpected things to troll politicians.
BBC says labour hold Sunderland?
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1124101382561255426
And yet one to which you claim to be, personally, a ‘hardcore remainer’ whilst only being ‘reluctantly’ dragged along by Brexit?
Dazh is a libertarian communist who has likely read "The left wing case against the EU" and not realised that the book is full of bollocks. As evidenced by the fact that Dazh claims it's a dictatorship and claims in an era when we need better central control of this planets cumbersome body of humanity, that what we need is more parochialism and arguing. I suspect even the UN is considered to be a dictatorship.
Libertarian communism is a do-nothing strain of ultraleftism that rejects all successful revolutions as being authoritarian or totalitarian or whatever. They specialize in holding past movements up to today's standards in terms of personal freedoms, for example, writing off all the successes and anti-imperialist internationalism of the Cuba revolution because gay men weren't allowed to serve in the Cuban military for a few years in the 1960's. They generally aren't down with Lenin and uphold obscure figures who never accomplished anything, or who died before they could accomplish anything.
Ultraleftists tend to believe all the lies about socialist states and groups put forward by the CIA, FBI, etc. They line up with liberals to shit-talk DPRK, Venezuela, China, etc etc etc.
They also claim certain movements as being of their tendency when they are just not. For example, the Kurdish socialists operating in Syria and the Zapatistas in Mexico. Libcoms want to act like these two movements are libcom movements when both movements will tell you they are communist or indigenous socialist movements (whether that is the case or not is debatable, but the point about libcoms being shitty stands).
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/7x1frz/what_is_libcom/
You need to read the coments in your own link, docrobster, only a third of the seats in Sunderland were up for election. So Labour have held the seat that were'nt up for election.
It’s like the electorate are just going out of their way to do the most unexpected things to troll politicians.
Its going to be entertaining watching how both Labour and the Tories try and spin this today. We did shit but not quit as shit as we expected is a difficult line to sell
So Labour lost every seat in Sunderland that was up for election? Wow!
Indeed, the "hold" was because of seats not contested. In the seats contested votes left Labour in both directions (as regards Brexit policy). Weirdly, Labour peeps doing interviews this morning seem to be paying a lot of attention to loses to UKIPTory, and none to the LibDem and Green gains, when relating these results to Brexit.
Labour should be destroying the Tories
May fired her defence secretary the day b4 an election for leaking security info to the press!!!
But surprise, surprise John McDonnell & Brandon Lewis both tweeting that this result says voters want Brexit sorted (well called P-Jay)
Gardiner suns up labours Brexit position
https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1124097468185174016?s=19
John curtice on R4 this morning saying labours fence sitting cost them votes & more remain than leave...
Sunderland result is interesting. Labour lost 12 seats. 7 to Tory/UKIP. 5 to libdem/green. So in the most ardent leave part of England, there’s a strong feeling to stay... maybe wishful thinking.
Edit: ah ok I see. Read the above now
Good point here
The big swing to the lib Dems was inspite of their being no elections in remoaner capital London!*
*Didn't stop Johnson tweeting that he'd just voted, later deleting it when was pointed out there was no election!
I've had to turn the radio off… every take was "this is a message to both parties that we have to get Brexit done." Ie, as others have said here, press ahead with cooking up a deal and keep voters at arm length from the Brexit process.
Corbyn and those in his inner circle are all lifelong Brexiteers. And as we al lknow, they couldn't give a flying **** about anyone else's opinion. They just want Brexit
I know that lots of his incredibly naive and gullible supporters are in denial about this, but surely even these lot must be coming round too accepting this uncomfortable truth that Magic Grandad is just as keen to get us out of the EU as IDS, John Redwood or Rees Mogg.
That Barry Gardiner clip pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the labour leaderships position
A stitch up to get Mays deal through, involving Jezza 3-line whipping his MPs to get it over the line is surely pretty much nailed on now? In order that they can both avoid the humiliation and electoral wipeout that the EU elections would mean for both of them
Get ready to be sold down the river....
A stitch up to get Mays deal through, involving Jezza 3-line whipping his MPs to get it over the line is surely pretty much nailed on now?
He can three line whip as much as he likes, how many of those MP's will defy it?
Its going to be entertaining watching how both Labour and the Tories try and spin this today. We did shit but not quit as shit as we expected is a difficult line to sell
Some Conservative lady on thectelly said it's a clear message to get on with Brexit, then said we shouldn't draw conclusions when the interviewer suggested that the Lib/Green swing might indicate a public appetite for remain. I don't know who it was as my head exploded and it's only my subconscience imagining me watching that and then typing this.
Re Sunderland
26 seats up for grabs. Previously labour had 24? (There is a blue splodge in the map. Do some wards have more than one councillor?)
They lost 12 of them. Something like that. About half anyway. And the ones they lost have gone 58:42 to brexit. How strongly in favour of brexit was Sunderland in 2016? 61:39 apparently. What does that tell us?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-sunderland-result-vote-brexit-leave-live-latest-remain-a7098776.html
how many of those MP’s will defy it?
I don't know. I'm pretty certain that we'll be finding out next week tough, now these local elections are out of the way
I've just had a look at the bookies and the odds of a second referendum are 5/1, the odds of us leaving the EU this year are now 1.5/1, so it looks like they think a stitch-up to get Mays deal through, without a second referendum, is a done deal
how many of those MP’s will defy it?
Many. But that vote will be all about how a combination of Tory & Labour MPs will vote. Of course, afterwards, we still have a Tory government, with Brexit legislation all sorted, and a leadership election on the way. Their "fresh" face can take credit for the Tories getting Brexit through, and blame the other side for it not being everything promised. Corbyn similarly will be able to take credit for delivering the will of the people, but blame the other side for the damage. I still think that "strategy" will play out much better for the new Tory leader than the Labour leader, don't you? None of it makes sense… unless of course you actually listen to what Corbyn&Milne&Murray&co have been saying about the EU since before it was even called that.
Dazh is a...
You presume to know me from a few comments and links on an Internet forum? I don’t claim to be anything, and my various political opinions spread across a number of ideologies. Got anything to say on the actual subject rather indulging in personal abuse?
I’m out of this from now BTW, it’s got way too personal. Seems this place is infected with the same culture of petty abuse as other platforms.
I know that lots of his incredibly naive and gullible supporters are in denial about this
You may not appreciate this, but it is possible to hold a nuanced opinion about politics and politicians.
dazh -
I’m out of this from now BTW, it’s got way too personal. Seems this place is infected with the same culture of petty abuse as other platforms.
This makes me sad, although I totally understand - I think you've been a constant, balanced and logical contributor to this thread. I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, but I do think, whenever I've popped in here (which has been less frequently of late), yours has been a reasoned and reasonable voice, and I'm sorry for what seems to have been the increasingly personal barbs slung your way.
F me, I cannot fing believe it.....BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit! How the F do you come to that conclusion when you’ve just been handed your ass to you on a plate?!
Fing deluded both of them..