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labour, as with all the other parties in a position to be a government (ie the tories) are primarily democratic parties.
If your definition of democratic involves going directly against the wishes of 68% of the people who voted for you, sure. It's a bit of an odd definition, but I guess in a world where we are allowed our own facts, words can mean whatever we want too.
The Tory brexit bus has juddered to a halt but Theresa is still strapped into the driving seat. There is no need for Labour to change their position on another refendum. Cameron's belief in a referendum to settle things is what got us into this mess, any re-run will be complicated and the result uncertain- so Labour need maintain flexibility so long as the timing and nature of another referendum remain in the gift of the Tories, so as the DUP carry on propping them up.
There is no need for Labour to change their position on another refendum
Another rational non-bandwagon jumping voice. Welcome!
And some idiot thought it would be wise to put the future of our country to a referendum where people so catastrophically ill-informed actually get to vote.
Precisely the argument(when they weren't imprisoning or killing them) the ruling elite used for hundreds of years when those pesky, illiterate,unwashed, brawling, drunken ,licentious proles were clamouring for universal suffrage.It's no wonder you don't like Labour binners.
Are you arguing for or against the proles having a say on whatever the politicians cook up for us?
Are you arguing for or against the proles having a say on whatever the politicians cook up for us?
I see what you did there 😉
If you are Labour, you are in favour of folk getting a say on whatever the Tories come up with, but not on whatever Labour come up with. A fair, honest and principled position, I'm sure you will all agree.
If your definition of democratic involves going directly against the wishes of 68% of the people
Hence why I said the ‘perception’ of it. It’s irrelevant whether it is democratic or not, the only thing that matters to political parties is whether the voters believe it is, and on brexit they definitely do.
More than happy to have a debate on the shortcomings of democracy though if you like, I can trot out all my old anarchist stuff from back in the day.
Who is creating that "perception"…?
And who is working to change it?
What a shitshow and what a terrible indictment of our politics.
Both major parties in thrall to the racist/xenophobic/bigoted/insular/backward-looking vote. One middle class, the other working class, but with more in common when it really gets down to the nasty than divides them. The gutter press has done its job magnificently.
This country is screwed.
racist/xenophobic/bigoted/insular/backward-looking
FFS get a grip. I used to think much the same in the heat of the moment after the refendum but if you still think that’s still case you haven’t been thinking or opening your eyes.
FFS get a grip. I used to think much the same in the heat of the momen
I don't think anything has particularly changed.
Instead of red and blue, we now have 4 descrete sub parties.
Red remain
Red leave
Blue remain
Blue leave
The Conservatives are in full on melt down over it, and Labour knows very well they'll also be in full on melt down if they ever get off the fence.
Yey!
FFS get a grip. I used to think much the same in the heat of the moment after the refendum but if you still think that’s still case you haven’t been thinking or opening your eyes.
3 years of chaos no one has a plan to make Brexit work, if people still think Brexit is a good idea they need to open their eyes!
The alternative is that they're so racist/insular/backward looking or whatevs to see what's obvious.
if people still think Brexit is a good idea they need to open their eyes!
Totally agree, but calling them all racists isn't going to do that. If we want to stop brexit, we need to persuade those who have been labelled racists to change their minds. Carry on with this blinkered them vs us mentality and we'll end up with the thing you don't want.
Give the patronising holier than thou shit a rest.
If you had even the most basic understanding of human behaviour you'd see why trying to persuade people to change their minds in any significant numbers is an entirely futile endeavour.
PS. I like where you object to labelling people as racist but then label people as blinkered because they don't share your view - top quality hypocrisy.
If you had even the most basic understanding of human behaviour you’d see why trying to persuade people to change their minds in any significant numbers is an entirely futile endeavour
So why are people calling for a 2nd ref then?
Totally agree, but calling them all racists isn’t going to do that.
True but I don't think that's what we're trying to do here. Brexiters will tell you all kinds of reasons why they voted Leave, and to persuade them to vote otherwise you'd have to address those concerns. However, their votes came down to blaming all those ills on foreigners ( Yes, an exaggeration, but not by much) and that's nothing but racism.
So why are people calling for a 2nd ref then?
Because a million or so have change their minds, died etc,. Agree that a significant number could never be made to change their mind but to swing it 52:48 the other way doesn't need a significant number (i.e. it needs 1 out of 17 million - 6% of which 3% are dead. so 3%)
As for racist Brexiters, if I wanted to leave the EU it would have nothing to do with foreigners and all to do with the EU being too free market and many other things. If when I weighed up the pros and cons they led to me supporting leave that would not be based on racism or stupidity but simply different priorities.
I will vote Labour as they will give a shit about society, equality etc,.
Blair and Brown governments didn't.
if I wanted to leave the EU it would have nothing to do with foreigners and all to do with the EU being too free market and many other things.
It's Britain that is one of the most free market countries in the union and has consistently dragged the union to the liberal free-trade right wihin its possibilities (mainly through British based lobby groups). Britain is far to the right of the EU political mean. Brexit is all about a more free trade liberal Britian, that is one of the stated objectives that was sold to the public. And yet you want to leave because the EU is too free trade! Please do some research.
Brexit is all about a more free trade liberal Britian, that is one of the stated objectives that was sold to the public.
Over here, people were sold both ideas to back Brexit… sticking it to globalism… and a more global Britain… that those two fundamentally contradictory motivations were behind the Brexit vote is one of the reasons it is impossible to now get a Brexit that most Leave voters can back… never mind a Brexit most of the UK as a whole can accept.
Looks clear to me, they want (and have always campaigned for) free trade without EU restrictions:
Loving the labour acolytes here. I haven't seen so much doublethink since I read the book that coined the term doublethink.
As someone (@jonlis) said on the twitter "Labour had an open goal and opted to impale itself on the goalpost"
All the pish about representing both sides is like saying your supporting celibacy by only getting a little bit pregnant.
Pure unadulterated 24 carat bellendery.
Both main parties will deliver brexit. may will leave, and then gove johnson or rees-mogg will be in charge of setting out our attitude to human rights, workers rights and unions and the NHS for the forseeable future.
And if that path is truly the only one they see leading to an "eventual" Labour government, then what are they for and whose side are they really on.
EDIT: the unicorns, sorry I forgot the unicorns! Schrodinger's unicorn brexit thats better than brexit. I feel so much better now that I love the party.
So why are people calling for a 2nd ref then?
I don't know ask them?
I can think of 7 reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure if you put some thought to it you could get a few.
PS Remember 2015 anyone
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/27/jeremy-corbyn-labour-membership-policy-leadership
The official Corbyn stance is in.
People's Vote good.
No vote better.
If you voted Remain and want to cancel Brexit, don't vote for Labour or Tories, simple as that.
There is no need for Labour to change their position on another refendum
From a Westminster perspective, this makes total sense. From a membership perspective it's weak pish. Labour is failing consistently to have a clear message (because it's stance isn't readily clear) and will be hammered in the next couple of elections because of it. The paradox being that the PLP want a general election to get into power, which they may ultimately not get as they're failing to get a clear message out, and Labour support is draining away. I don't think to other parties, they just won't turn out in the numbers needed.
Brexit is a Tory shit show, and rather than pander to the Labour out minority, the PLP should be hammering the message home that support for brexit is going to hurt them, Labour should be making sure that every Brexit Labour voter understands why their decision of 2016 was wrong, and become a strong remain/back in party.
won't happen under Corbyn
And yet you want to leave because the EU is too free trade! Please do some research.
They want the total free market. That's how the socialist utopia will be born when people get sick of free market economics.
I could say that the labour supporters here arguing the case could be classed as principled, or possibly naive, but actually they are f*cking idiots.
but actually they are f*cking idiots
Nice! Got anything intelligent to say?
If you had even the most basic understanding of human behaviour you’d see why trying to persuade people to change their minds in any significant numbers is an entirely futile endeavour.
You do understand don't you that if you're right then brexit can't be stopped?
Macron's success was born from people not needing to change their minds, he just offered them centrist policies that corresponded to their existing views that the PS and Républicans had lost along the way. There's a host of people willing to vote for remain that don't need their minds changing - given the chance.
You do understand don’t you that if you’re right then brexit can’t be stopped?
doesnt take that many to change ther mind, coupled with demographic shifts
and majority of labour voters voted remain after all and even bigger majority now oppose brexit
and majority of labour voters voted remain after all and even bigger majority now oppose brexit
There's a lot of assumptions around how the demographics and polls have shifted. If a new vote is to be held and then used to stop brexit, it needs to be decisive and not another small difference of a few percent. That's going to need more than a few old people dying and a better turnout from labour voters.
If a new vote is to be held and then used to stop brexit, it needs to be decisive and not another small difference of a few percent. That’s going to need more than a few old people dying and a better turnout from labour voters.
Where's the logic in that? If a small difference can get the country into a mess a small difference to get it out is all that's needed. Decisive wil never happen for either in or out. It doesn't even need old people to die, it just needs people to vote in the way they are currently telling the pollsters they'll vote, the main thing that's needed is a high turnout.
When you look at the referendum results it makes Corbyn's attitude to Brexit astonishing as it is clearly allienating over 60% of his electorate:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
Where’s the logic in that?
Because obviously if it's not decisive the leavers will simply do what the remainers are doing now, and call for yet another vote.
Because obviously if it’s not decisive the leavers will simply do what the remainers are doing now, and call for yet another vote.
And so? This issue won't suddenly die because we do or don't have a vote… which is why all the "why isn't this done yet" stuff is such infantile politics. We are looking at step one in a decade plus long process, for which we have no agreed plan, path or direction. And even if we decide not to take that first step, the conflicts over how we operate with the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world, will still be there… and changes will still be fought over and argued for.
Well it can be stopped it's just your total inability to understand how a representative democracy works (still) that means you can't grasp it.
and call for yet another vote.
I genuinely think that most folk have realised that Brexit is a fantasy world created by people that do not have the best interested of the working class in mind. Labour need to bang this drum much much harder than they do now...
[rhetorical] I wonder why they don't?[/rhetorical]
I think any re-run of the referendum would be more decisive, folk are much more educated about the pros and cons.
Labour MPs from Leave seats who want result respected but jobs and standards defended.
They can want it all they want it but they ain't gonna get it. Once Britian's out I want my government to protect me from unfair competition from the UK. I've no doubt voters in the other remaining EU countries feel the same way. That means jobs in the UK will suffer, ask Renault-Nissan, Honda, Toyota... .
folk are much more educated about the pros and cons.
I'd love to think so, but I see little evidence of that in the brexit heartlands of North East England etc. If anything they're even more entrenched thanks to the failure to implement it. They voted to leave because they are not listened to by politicians, and they believe the same politicians are ignoring them again by not enacting the result. It's a self-reinforcing cycle which is only going to end via decisive action one way or the other. Probably impossible I admit but that's where I think we are.
Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) will build its next-generation Land Rover Defender 4x4 in Slovakia rather than the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-48103070
Probably impossible I admit but that’s where I think we are.
Probably. In my ideal world the Labour party should be telling these folk why a vote fro Brexit will not work out how they think. The cynic in me tells me that Corbyn is ignoring the fact that this was a protest vote and telling himself that these "true socialists" believe the same red Brexit crap that he believes in. (perhaps even a few mad bastards actually do)
The cynic in me tells me that Corbyn is ignoring the fact that this was a protest vote
On the contrary, Corbyn won the leadership by positioning himself as a challenger to the establishment. One explanation of his position on the brexit vote is that he thinks he can harness the anti-establishment sentiment it demonstrated and combine it with the leftwing anti-establishment views which defeated the the blairites. This would fit with the rhetoric about 'unifying' the country, which really means unifying the working and lower middle classes against a tory establishment. It's a big ask though, trying to unite reactionary sun-reading white people in northern estates and cosmopolitan rich liberals in the cities is very ambitious, possibly even naive. What I find most depressing is that it's the liberals who seem to be demonstrating most resistance to this. Brexit is preventing everyone from seeing the bigger picture.
Because obviously if it’s not decisive the leavers will simply do what the remainers are doing now, and call for yet another vote.
Well if we could have simply 'left' under a mechanism that had been clearly outlined beforehand then there wouldn't be the need for a second vote would there?
A second vote returning a remain majority however doesn't create the same issue. We vote remain, we stay in status quo. The issue is then closed and we move on. As it would have been if the leavers had actually been honest with what 'leave' means in the first place, and the public had voted for that.
The issue is then closed and we move on.
And people say I'm naive! Do you really, honestly think that would be the end of it?
Yeah… it wouldn't be over. But we would still have EU membership (for now), and there are very real benefits to us still arguing on the inside, rather than arguing on the outside.
The only way JC is likely to unify the country is to makeost people worse off so more people are angry with the establishment.
And people say I’m naive! Do you really, honestly think that would be the end of it?
No but it would give a better chance of sorting the underlying issues. Which Brexit doesn't.
And people say I’m naive! Do you really, honestly think that would be the end of it?
Not naive, just don't really factor in the grumblings of a tiny minority of bigots and selve servers in the grand scheme of things. So yes we'd still have the euro sceptics and UKIP bleating away, but so what, we've put up with them for years previously.
I believe whilst a small minority of vocal right wingers would continue to bump their gums, the vast majority would simply move on, as to remain would have absolutely no impact on their quality of life one way or other. It would be forgotten about by most normal folks within 12 months.
The reason that the remainers are so vocal is because the consequences of leaving will actually impact a significant proportion of the population for decades to come.
It's pretty evident that those who are passionate about remaining far out weigh those who are passionate about leaving.
It’s pretty evident that those who are passionate about remaining far out weigh those who are passionate about leaving.
Is it? I can take you to loads of places where the exact opposite is true. The very fact that we are where are proves this is not the case. The reason I take the position I do is because whilst I am a hardcore remainer, I'm not blind to the fact that there are a huge number of people (roughly half of us if you believe the referendum) who think the opposite. What are we going to do? Carry on shouting at each other for decades like children, or do the mature thing and find a compromise that most of us can live with before it descends into something much darker? I don't want my kids to have to live in a society which is divided into two sides who hate each other.
do the mature thing and find a compromise that most of us can live with before it descends into something much darker?
The SNP (and others) have suggested compromises… the Tory and Labour leaderships have ruled them out because … "Freedom of Movement of workers must end" …so all that's on offer is a Hard Brexit, and more than half of the population would prefer keeping our EU membership to that. It's all still about immigration in the end… to satisfy those that want migration curbed the majority of the country are being told that they have to live with a Hard Brexit… including many who voted Leave hoping to be on an outer ring of Europe, staying in the Single Market. A reminder that many people voted Leave expecting to stay in the Single Market… (polling after the referendum showed that most did at the time)… and polls since have shown that a large majority of people would be happy for FoM to continue to stay in the Single Market.
It would seem I'm on exactly the same page as Owen Jones
“The biggest thing you could do to help the Tories in the next election is to make Labour a party of remain,” says Spectator editor Fraser Nelson
haha, Fraser Nelson has been wrong over brexit time after time, seems an odd choice to quote
Aaaand Owen Jones article seems to have backfired, plenty of people on social media now saying they are more convinced than ever not to vote labour!
Not his smartest move the day b4 local elections!
And I’m one.
Vote early vote often kids.
If my local councillors are anything to go by its a good idea to have a clear out.
I believe whilst a small minority of vocal right wingers would continue to bump their gums, the vast majority would simply move on, as to remain would have absolutely no impact on their quality of life one way or other. It would be forgotten about by most normal folks within 12 months.
Agree. And why parliament should have voted to ignore the advisory result 3 years ago. Would have been long forgotten by most people by now as most didn't even think or care about the EU before it was all stirred up. Those that did were already backing UKIP.
Aaaand Owen Jones article seems to have backfired, plenty of people on social media now saying they are more convinced than ever not to vote labour!
Not his smartest move the day b4 local elections!
My choice this morning was limited to 1 Labour and 2 Conservative councilors. I voted Labour.
I don’t want my kids to have to live in a society which is divided into two sides who hate each other.
They already do tbh.
Rumours abound… looks like Binners was right, and I was wrong, and the May/Corbyn cook up (Hard Brexit with a "Customs Arrangement", no FoM, and vague promises on rights and standards that May's successor can just ignore) is looking more and more likely. No public vote on it as part of the cook up, of course. Timed to be after the local elections… Shit.
It often takes just one thing to switch public opinion - the final straw, if you like. I wonder if the Bombardier thing will be it? Or the next one? After all, a key argument for leave was that everything would be fine, we'll do more business outside.
Kelvin - if its gone quiet, then fear the worst. Nobody even mentioned Brexit at PMQ's this week. Its been obvious for a while that they're just waiting for the local elections to be out of the way, then announcing their stitch up in time to make sure that the EU elections don't take place. And a referendum has always looked like it would only ever take place over Corbyns dead body
The pro-brexit labour party leadership is about to sell their voters and their membership down the river on the back of their 70's, retro, anti-EU instincts. And when it does so, the labour party is finished!
Will the stitch up have to be voted through parliament?
Yes. Assumptions about Tories voting against might well change after they see the local election results… and polls for the European Elections. I dunno. They know their next leader can change it all after the vote anyway… I suspect they'll lose the support of another 100 Tory MPs, but that Labour will deliver them more than that with a three line whip. They'll then be a separate vote on a referendum, which will be narrowly lost. That's my bet… but Binners seems more on it… what you got Binners…?
In the same way as May's deal, but it would also have to be agreed by the EU if there's any deviation in the meat of the agreement with them.
I guess the withdrawal agreement itself won't change at all. Mostly because nothing will change beyond assurances about future arrangements, which won't bind Boris or notBoris anyway, and will leave the EU and all the state governments to do/say whatever they want later as well. Nothing additional for them to agree to at this stage. Current WA doesn't rule out any kind of customs cooperation, or have anything to do with the UK unilateral underpinning our workers rights and product standards with the EU ones (for a time).
I agree with you Kelvin. That’s exactly what will happen. Corbyn has 3 line whipped his MPs to enable Brexit at every critical juncture, and the deafening silence from the negotiations, plus the anti 2nd referendum position stated last week, make it pretty obvious the leadership is preparing for an epic Brexit stitch up to get Mays Deal through.
I’m sure Kier Starmer, Tom Watson and others will walk, but Corbyn won’t mind that as it’ll increase his hold on what will then be a totally unelectable Labour Party and avoid EU elections which they’re presently just as scared of as the Tories
Which one is notBoris?
I dunno, but I fully expect it to be Boris versus a "Stop Boris" candidate in the leadership contest, don't you? Both will probably promise to reject the "Labour elements" of any cook up, and will have to win Back support from the Brexit "party".
The bottom line is that pretty much any of the potential Tor leadership candidates will make May look like Kenneth Clark when it comes to Europe. That the labour leadership is too driven by its anti-EU instincts to see this is a reflection of just how rubbish they are at this politics lark.
Whatever 'concessions' they agree for this stitch-up won't last a week once May is deposed
what will then be a totally unelectable Labour Party
Just because a few on here have vowed not to vote Labour - you think so?
I reckon you're wrong.
I doubt "a few people on here" has anything to do with anything. A lot of people who voted for Labour, with Corbyn as leader, are now waiting for Labour members to take back control of their party before voting for it again.
You reckon a pro-brexit, anti-EU, anti-immigrant, hard left labour party, once the sane ones have walked, and led by Magic Grandad, will be electable?
Good luck with that.
It'd actually be comical in its political cluelessness if it wasn't going to lead to permanent tory government, probably with some absolute nutter taking over from the Maybot
Will Corbyn get a Tory or labour peerage? He has been more of an asset to the blue cause than the red.
Just because a few on here have vowed not to vote Labour – you think so?
I reckon you’re wrong.
Agree. People contributing to this thread are not the typical voter, not even close.
I voted Labour this morning, go Corbyn.
You reckon a pro-brexit, anti-EU, anti-immigrant, hard left labour party,
That only exists in your imagination and that of the right wing press?
Dagnamit - I had decided not to get involved any more in this thread
I reckon you’re wrong.
I'm pretty certain that the country at large are far less obsessed with this than the brexit denial faction on here. A deal will be agreed, there will be howling from the chattering classes at how unfair it is that the referendum result hasn't been overturned, and the rest of the country will breathe a sigh of relief that they can move on to other more important issues.
I still can't get my head around what you lot don't understand about holding a referendum and then enacting the result (yeah I know, they lied, advisory blah blah blah). Trouble is the vast majority of people outside of what is fast becoming an elitist anti-democratic cult understand it perfectly fine. You hold a vote, one side wins, you implement the result. It really is that simple in the minds of the vast majority of people.
*awaits a repetition of the usual logical gymnastics*
You hold a vote, one side wins, you implement the result.
thats working out well eh...
and the rest of the country will breathe a sigh of relief that they can move on to other more important issues.
so youre just goingto pretend the next 5+ years of futurre relationship negotiations wont be happening?