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I had the opportunity to go and work in Australia. Without a doubt the best thing that could have ever happened to me. It’s when I grew up and learnt to stand on my own 2 feet.
To deny our young people that experience on our doorstep without having to jump through hoops is a disgrace.
As a child of the early 70s being a racist prick was the default mode in my family and that was how I was raised . Even reverting to my flag waving, English mans home is his castle mode I can not see just one benefit of brexit. Only this country being reduced to the laughing stock of Europe again. Even if a beneficial brexit was possible , do we really have the people capable of delivering it? No we do not. All of our best players have ****ed off.
To you leavers who come on here with your Engerland swagger , I was more of a **** than you’ll ever be , so grow up ,think straight and just put your hate away.
Times have changed.
And whose life will be utterly turned over by a Brexit with customs union and in what way?
Mine potentially. For over 10 years i've exercised my right to freedom of movement and worked around Europe. I don't make much money but i get a fair quality of life and had some great experiences. However this does rely on freedom of movement, right to work in the EU, reciprocal health agreements and EU pension agreement. The exact status of all of these things following Brexit is unknown, maybe it will all be fine, maybe i'll be forced to move back to the UK, who knows but the whole thing does make me more than a little angry /shrug
UK people won’t be able to go on holiday to Spain anymore?
Have you visited Spain recently?
Have you visited the US recently?
Were those two processes comparable?
Have you visited Spain recently?
Have you visited the US recently?
Were those two processes comparable?
Different processes but so what. It is hardly difficult to go on holiday to US is it. Just a bit dramatic.
Mine potentially.
Okay so yours, potentially. Again, to the average person (i.e. the 90+%) it will make no difference.
Ask people in 5 years what has changed and what was the point of leaving the EU and most won't have even noticed other than being told we left. Obviously that goes the other way and is why we shouldn't be leaving in the first place.
Ask people in 5 years... what was the point of leaving the EU
We've been doing that for three years so far and not got a credible answer yet, so you're probably right there.
So if 90% of people still have no idea how major policy decisions effect the other 10%… will that be as a result of people who keep pointing out those effects… or those that keep denying them… @kerley?
(I think those % are utter nonsense by the way… a quick consideration of my immediate neighbours suggests that everyone has a family or work interest that will be effected by ending FoM and/or leaving the Single Market).
It's not holiday that's the issue Kerley, it's work; have you ever applied for a US Green card or even presented at the US border and said 'business' rather than pleasure ? compared to the EU where we get on the Eurostar at London and get off at paris with no questions other than the guard checking your train ticket and passport
edit: also we access the US as a member of the EU. We have no method for doing this when we leave (thanks to that useless nerk Fox) so if we were to crash out then our passport would be as useful as a Cuban one
what difference does it make to our daily lives whether we leave the EU or remain??
Directly, probably very little. I don't get to travel much and whilst we're going to France and Italy on Holiday this year, we're flying into Switzerland and will likely not face passport checks to travel between the 3.
Indirectly? Who knows, we still don't know what the situation will be do we? The most dramatic possibility / answer is a clean break / no deal - we'll leave at the end of Oct or whenever the latest deadline is. My Employer could, in theory at least be in real, real trouble day one.
Microsoft, who provide us will 70%-ish of the stuff we use/sell haven't given any real indication of how things could work in a no-trade or this so-called WTO scenario - mostly likely we'd have to trade with their US HQ which would mean a trade tariff and a jump in pricing. A 'worst case' potential out-come is that our cloud services, e-mail and office suite (and that of our clients) effectively stops working as it's all subscription based now and not bought outright.
The rest of the tools we use or resell aren't UK based, ironically our AV provider was until a few weeks ago but have moved to a global platform which we might technically mean we can't resell until we have an international trade agreement of some sort.
TBH I don't suspect we'll 'go dark' at 11pm or whatever, common sense (which up to now doesn't seem to have played much of a part in the Brexit debate other than the usual Daily Mail sense of the word aka 'opinion that suits my purposes') will means a few pop ups and warnings but otherwise business as usual.
Our clients, who we sort of need to keep paying us to stay in business equally don't really know how they'll be affected until we know, well, how they'll be affected. Some trade with the EU directly, some indirectly - one is especially vulnerable as they make small bits and bobs for various car makers, they're desperately looking for new customers as they don't expect to have their contracts renewed at the end of their current terms and have been warned that all contracts are null and void in the advent of a 'no deal'.
Some sort of deal would be preferable then, Corbyn's Customers Union and Single Market deal would be nice short-term as effectively nothing changes from a business point of view - but long term, as our influence diminishes within the EU our terms will our biggest trading partner will worsen, that's just how international trade works. As the angry man on the news said the other day, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. May's harder break would be worse short-term and I don't know if it could ever be made better long-term - national ego aside we're the worlds 5th largest economy at the moment, but with 6 of the other top twenty all in the same league (along with 20 other large economies) and an economy largely based on servicing the rest of the world, we might find ourselves falling down the order.
It is just the usual right wing dogma though, isolate another few percentage of the population, throw them on the scrap heap, blame the victims. It has been hugely successful for the past 40 years, the cult of "self" has allowed the few to really repress the many.
And again it is a campaign methodology that exposes who is really behind brexit.
As a Franco British family, end of FOM is big for us. For the past 20 years we have traveled between the two countries very easily, and lived and worked in both as well.
Ask people in 5 years what has changed and what was the point of leaving the EU and most won’t have even noticed
I only have three cousins, one lives and works in Sardinia. One lives and works in Germany and the other France. All of them have the freedom of choice to do so. I can visit them easily and cheaply. I love doing so as I feel lucky to be able to spend time in different cultures. My eldest kid was planning to fly to Sardinia this summer to hang out with my Cousin, that has been binned due to the uncertainty of Brexit (young solo flyer traveling alone for the first time, didn't want to risk it). In the future my kids will not have ease of movement and opportunity afforded to our generation, that sucks.
The reason most leavers claim they won't notice leaving is that they do not read economic arguments, they don't understand trading relationships, they don't have an interest in living abroad, they don't understand how the EU works, they don't have the ability to form their own, informed opinions. But hey, we're taking back control.
Some sort of deal would be preferable then, Corbyn’s Customers Union and Single Market deal would be nice short-term as effectively nothing changes from a business point of view – but long term, as our influence diminishes within the EU our terms will our biggest trading partner will worsen, that’s just how international trade works. As the angry man on the news said the other day, if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu
Ken Clarke,that arch Brexiteer 😉 said something interesting about being in the Custom's Union and seemed quite relaxed about still having an influence on EU policy.He has been there and so should know what he's talking about.He said that when the EU are deciding policy then everyone who is affiliated to the EU in the varying degrees of membership is there and has their say in formulating policy and their views are taken into account.When the final decision is to be made then only the voting members go into another room and vote and make the actual decision.In his experience the final decision taken has always been what was agreed outside the room.Now obviously there are no guarantees that it will always be like that but his view was that is how the EU works,it wants consensus.
The customs union is the deal the brexiters don't want, it's the best one to vote on as it's not great for anyone but simply won't satisfy the full on leavers.
It's the same with the Single Market Nick… of course the EU "listens" to what those operating in the Single Market but not EU members want… but ultimately it can ignore them… or, to be more polite, give them less weighting than the concerns of actual members who have voting and veto rights.
The customs union is the deal the brexiters don’t want, it’s the best one to vote on as it’s not great for anyone but simply won’t satisfy the full on leavers.
The ERG ones anyway, this really is one of those "bad referendum" problems - lumping everyone who had an issue with the EU in the same camp has made some odd bedfellows.
The hardcore Capitalists couldn't give two hoots about FOM or really immigration at all, as long as they can make a quick buck now.
The hardcore Socialists don't care about incoming trade tariffs as long as they can end FOM to stop UK workers being under-cut in the UK.
The Xenophobes don't care about the economy (because it's all bollocks anyway isn't it?) as long as they can stop 'em coming over 'er amd send 'em back! (providing they can ex-pat to Spain to live the rest of their lives looking like old leather).
And the arsehole Politicians, of which there are surprisingly few, just care about putting the boot in as much as possible to further their own career.
Try going on holiday to USA with a criminal record....
But hey, we’re taking back control.
...and giving it to...?
I had the opportunity to go and work in Australia. Without a doubt the best thing that could have ever happened to me. It’s when I grew up and learnt to stand on my own 2 feet.
and I was sat in Australia wondering what the impact of a fairly significant life event was going to have on my ability to keep my job and stay living there, it's a really stressful thing and really doesn't lead to stability or happy people.
People working in the US not on green cards are faced with the need to pack up and leave if they lose their job - that is the level of crap that we want to impose on thousands of hard working people who have helped shape modern britian.
But hey, we’re taking back control.
…and giving it to…?
Working class man reckons someone called ‘Annunziata Rees-Mogg’ is on his side
When i explain to my vote leaving mum that "they" are trying to make a law to stop English people retiring, moving or working abroad she asks" why are they trying to do that?
I then explain that " they" are she.
Slowly the penny is dropping. She still likes that nice Mr Johnson.
“they” are trying to make a law to stop English people retiring, moving or working abroad she asks”
I'm with your mum, what law is that
?
Better phrased change the law to make it harder, more expensive and remove a lot of the reciprocal arrangements.
Working class man reckons someone called ‘Annunziata Rees-Mogg’ is on his side
Quite. Depressing isn't it? They haven't quite got the party name right for real popular appeal. They need something which suggests socialism and the nation. Any thoughts?
Try going on holiday to USA with a criminal record….
Which is precisely why the "taking back control of our borders" has gained so much traction don't you think?
Yup, and iirc and we've been over this about a million times, we can apply very similar laws on immigration even while remaining in the EU and abiding by their laws, but in order to enforce those laws we would need an effective border force at ports. Which would cost money, which our govt are allergic to spending, unless it's for expenses or buying off religous extremists.
It’s the same with the Single Market Nick… of course the EU “listens” to what those operating in the Single Market but not EU members want… but ultimately it can ignore them… or, to be more polite, give them less weighting than the concerns of actual members who have voting and veto rights.
Which is why I posted what Ken's experiences were and said
"Now obviously there are no guarantees that it will always be like that but his view was that is how the EU works,it wants consensus."
As regards the veto and voting rights I'm not sure what the position actually is now with getting things passed, does it still need unanimity? Happy to be enlightened.I know the UK famously had a veto but not so sure what it can use it on anymore or if it still even has it.
Happy to be enlightened.I know the UK famously had a veto but not so sure what it can use it on anymore or if it still even has it.
No offence but have you tried google there? It's all out there, heaps and heaps of information on all of this.
I'm disappointed mike.Why Google it when you know everything and are usually so happy to enlighten everyone on every possible subject.
because we are just repeating stuff over and over again....
Sometimes if you want to know something take a look, have a read up and then ask the question, that is how some of us learned something.
And the reason I made the comment was precisely because the EU fanbois might google it themselves and see the complexity of the EU decision making process.Clearly that went over your usually so smarty pants head.
Edinburgh Defence or just a bit of trolling there?
the EU fanbois
You do realise, don't you, that it's possible to understand that the UK being a member of the EU is preferable to us not being so, without being a "fanboi"? I live in a shitty mid-terrace in a deprived area of the country, but just because I've no desire to be homeless doesn't suddenly imply that I believe that it's a mansion in a leafy Surrey suburb. If you can find anyone in the last 60-odd thousand posts here claiming they think the EU is perfect you can have my bike.
Honestly, it's this sort of "if you love the EU why don't you live there" cretinous attitude that helped get us to where we are now in the first place. This thread is over 1,600 pages long and I'd guess that fully a third of it is people explaining things, but it's ultimately futile because those asking questions and stating "facts" don't want to listen to answers and explanations.
EU fanbois
👆 that description is so funny. 🤣
Another valuable contribution.
So I quickly Googled UK veto and the first link was to fullfact.org
British influence in the EU Council of Ministers
Some interesting information there not just on the veto but other areas of practice in the EU. It really does sound pretty democratic.
EU fanbois
Sounds like some sort of French liqueur TBH.
You do realise, don’t you, that it’s possible to understand that the UK being a member of the EU is preferable to us not being so, without being a “fanboi”?
Exactly. I don't really like the EU, I wouldn't want to join if not already in it and I think it needs to be radically reformed. But, there is no way I think leaving is a good idea.
That's a good point. If roles were reversed - if we never joined and were discussing whether or not to join - I'm not sure how I'd vote for many of the concerns leavers are citing now. But voting in and voting out are very different affairs.
Consider, in 1975 we decided to have a heart transplant. In 2016 we decided to have the transplant removed, and now three years later some of us are going "I can't understand why you can't just take it out!"
Good way of putting it Cougar, if we had not joined we would be the basket case hanging off the side of the continent, isolated and stunted begging at the door while whistling Rule Britannia
Probably, but TBH it's hard to say what might have happened in the Mirror Universe in those intermediate 40-odd years.
Point was, for better or worse we've spent years slowly integrating more and more with the rest of the EU, delegating to the Union all the shit that we don't want to or have to deal with ourselves. Whether or not we were "OK before" is by the by, you can't just rip out all that integration and replace it with nothing at all other than the hope that we'll "probably be OK again."
Probably also worth noting that a USA trade deal won't be good for the UK either with or without a hard Irish border.
Probably, but TBH it’s hard to say what might have happened in the Mirror Universe in those intermediate 40-odd years.
A lot of egg and pineapple
Plenty of the investment coming over to the UK would not be here, it's what will not come to the UK from any leave point forward.
Ratty bits of gammon aways seem to have egg on thier face.
It's the metaphor that keeps on giving.
Tinned pineapple ring on top sir?
It's hard to see how the UK economy would have grown quite so much without all the EU immigrants coming here and working. The work they do generates profit for businesses.
On the other hand though... Without them, but with the skills and expertise perhaps we'd have been forced to automate further... Hmm.. interesting economic point.
Did I tell the story about the tree stump machine I saw being used to remove a tree in the USA? Two blokes cut down a small tree, fed it whole via a machine into a chipper, then removed the stump with another machine all in about half an hour. Spending money on machines only makes economic sense if you can't get cheap workers to do it buy hand for less. So the lack of cheap labour makes the workers more productive and also creates a highly skilled economy in the design and manufacture of the machines.
So perhaps with less cheap labour we'd have been forced to mechanise; or maybe we'd have just not bothered and left the tree where it was. Or not built the car, so someone couldn't buy it and remained a one car family, so one spouse had to get work in the corner shop instead of being able to drive to the skilled job at the tree stump machine maker.
Any economists in?
Did I tell the story about the tree stump machine I saw being used to remove a tree in the USA? Two blokes cut down a small tree, fed it whole via a machine into a chipper, then removed the stump with another machine all in about half an hour. Spending money on machines only makes economic sense if you can’t get cheap workers to do it buy hand for less. So the lack of cheap labour makes the workers more productive and also creates a highly skilled economy in the design and manufacture of the machines.
That would prove a point if the US did not have cheap labour available to them, both in the form of immigrants going cash in hand and the locals being screwed over. Automation is not about saving the labour cost it's about doing it again and again and again the same way in the same time until time stops. It's one of the more common misconceptions when replacing labour with automation, it doesn't need to be faster just pay back over time, for the guy in the states he just needs keep doing it when he has the machine. Plenty of farm contractors in the UK exploiting the same equation.
Not an economist - just sack people and replace them with robots
Also,
Removing tree stumps by hand is an abject bastard of a job.
Any economists in?
They won't really help as your guess is as good as theirs on what may or may not have happened over the last 40 years.
What trade relationship would we have developed (could be similar to what we have in EU), what immigration policies would we have (again could be similar to what we have in the EU) etc,.
What trade relationship would we have developed (could be similar to what we have in EU), what immigration policies would we have (again could be similar to what we have in the EU) etc,.
Alternatively, we could all be speaking German by now.
(-:
could be similar to what we have in EU
A timely reminder that we shaped the EU, especially as regards the creation and extension of the Single Market, and the expansion of our trade area to the East. We are not passive hangers on (yet)… so what we have in the EU now simply wouldn't exist if we hadn't been central to its creation.
Also, this smacks of…
" all the benefits of, but not a member of " nonsense that Conservatives and Labour alike have either utterly misunderstood, or used to mislead us, over the last few years.
damn turks coming over ‘ere stealing our building jobs
I'm actually working on a site in Central London run by a Turkish main contractor right now and all the staff there seem to be Turkish.
duplicate deleted
Well it looks like the TIGgers have got their shit together and are now an official political party who remainers can vote for in the upcoming EU elections, should they fancy
I can only see one result of this: The Tory's and Labour will now ensure a stitch-up to get Mays deal through as the leadership of both parties would much rather this than no Brexit at all, and they both know they will be decimated in any EU elections. So I reckon they'll both whip their MP's (or at least try to) to get this through in time to make sure that we're not participating in them, possibly with a couple of token amendments chucked in
Nah, Labour will expect to do very well in these elections… and I suspect they are right… most voters, understandably, won't have a clear view of their Brexit policy… but feel it can't be as bad as May's or those in her party that seek to replace her. There are people who post here that still think Corbyn wants a Soft Brexit, or supports a referendum if he becomes PM… and they are probably far more in touch with what has actually been said by key politicians and their staff than the average voter.
The Conservative party on the other hand…
good thing about the elections is that the parties will have to write something on paper that is pro-EU which will come back to haunt them.
although if either/both get a drubbing there may not be that much impact as the general election is a long way off yet and the papers will just ignore the EU elections when the GE comes round.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/16/how-may-miscalculated-the-brexit-numbers-game
Good summary of the misreading of the situations all the way
That would prove a point if the US did not have cheap labour available to them
Not necessarily, the US is not homogeneous. Immigrants will go to places with lots of work. This particular place was a dull quiet place with low immigration and a static workforce. They can't get people in from New Mexico just to look after the park.
You've never seen a stump grinder in use in the UK? Most people can't be bothered to remove them I suppose, and they are pretty lively bits of kit.
Not necessarily, the US is not homogeneous.
The US doen not need immigration for cheap labour, it has its own citizens for that, working 53 weeks a year and paying their own healthcare. It might be good for the ones in nice jobs it's fairly shit for the others.
Worth a watch, Carole Cadwalladr (pullitzer prize finalist along with the NY times OR mad cat lady according to "not a sexist" A.F. Neil) at TED. HERE
Also worth a watch, Channel 4 news last night. HERE
Jon Snow says theres more to come from Channel 4 this evening.
If only there were some talking points or themes that the official opposition in the UK could use to highlight why Brexit might not be our best interests.
Ho Hum.
Has everyone been enjoying the brief re-emergence of normal pre-Brexit life?
Where you can actually turn the news on and you're not immediately greeted with Farage or Rees Mogg looking disgruntled, or Theresa Mays rictus grin as she placates them? Or open a news website and read a story that doesn't involve any reference to the customs union or the backstop?
It's coming to something when watching an iconic cathedral burn down is infinitely preferable to the alternative?
eat_the_pudding.... those are interesting videos.
seriously thinking of removing myself from facebook....
Unfortunately Lazy Nigel is being anything but lazy with his campaigning to get re-elected to the European Parliament. So I'm still catching a lot of glimpses of a campaign going on that doesn't appear to have a counter campaign. Where are the pro-EU parties campaigning? Why is Farridge holding rallies when the rest of the political class are taking a holiday, whilst partially distracted by impending local elections?
I fear he may be getting the run-up to the EU Elections that he craves, and there's going to be another "mandate for Brexit" that will be hard to counter.
It turns out that Scotland are polling very well for SNP in the Euro Elections, why did they let themselves down so badly in the 2017 General Election?
The US doen not need immigration for cheap labour, it has its own citizens for that, working 53 weeks a year and paying their own healthcare. It might be good for the ones in nice jobs it’s fairly shit for the others.
Well aware of that, but why does the city pay tens of thousands for a machine instead of paying labourers peanuts?
Well aware of that, but why does the city pay tens of thousands for a machine instead of paying labourers peanuts?
Many reasons, reliability and repeat ability, no need to worry about alchol and drug issues, better long term performance, ROI calcs to show at what point you hit profit etc. deploying the good staff you have somewhere useful
Very true about no counter argument. There's no big backer or newsworthy politicos with a vested interest in the remain side of the argument, Leave is an easier sell as it's something new and the grass is always greener. Even when we've looked over the fence and it's not.
alcolepone,
Yup me too.
I've not been on facebook for long, or for much, but it would still be inconvenient to leave as it just sucks you back in.
But is that any excuse after what they've done?
I just hope that there is some sort of reckoning for political advertising. At this stage a ban on political advertising on social networks would be the best easiest and most effective option.
Theres no real point in getting uptight about the possible implications of the european elections. The parties _can't_ practically work together enough to have a single "remain" vote. But even if Nige wins more MEPs (which he might) its the numbers of voters that matter more.
VOTE!
Point was, for better or worse we’ve spent years slowly integrating more and more with the rest of the EU
Absolutely, we've expanded the docks at places like Felixstowe and closed them in Liverpool, built the Tunnel, etc. Infrastructure changes like that are not cheap to do.
why does the city pay tens of thousands for a machine
Quicker, for one thing, minimises the disruption to the area.
the TIGgers have got their shit together and are now an official political party who remainers can vote for in the upcoming EU elections, should they fancy
They've stated that they will treat the European elections as a proxy referendum.
My mum bought my daughter this lovely cuddly toy in Austria this week. I think it’s the perfect Brexit emoji
[img] 
[/img]
A presentation drawn up by the Home Secretary's Policy Unit and sent to HMRC and the Treasury implies that they think a technological solution - which would aim to keep the Irish border entirely open and without physical checkpoints - is a distant (and likely very expensive) prospect.
Of course the brexiters will, rather than admit that they have again been bullshitted by the likes of the ERG, will take that as justification for not being "trapped" in the backstop.
All the technological border options are limited to managing compliant traffic. They can't stop smugglers or illegal immigrants. Consider that we still have a hard border at Dover with both sides in the EU.
All the technological border options are limited to managing compliant traffic. They can’t stop smugglers or illegal immigrants.
You just killed a Unicorn.
Brexit Unicorn in the wild
https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1117516865331396609
Bwhahahah - Corbyns still a brexiteer deep down isn't he judging by the pic! The 6th former just got told!
Is that Corbyn realising that the Demos don't like him and nor do any of the lefty European parties? Who are going to be his mates if he becomes PM, Cuba?
PA: Here is a handy list of Brexit supporting business in the UK.
Feel free to boycott (or support) depending upon your disposition.
List 1
https://www.reddit.com/r/brexit/comments/be60wb/lets_make_a_list_of_brexit_funding_businesses_to/
List 2
https://www.reddit.com/r/brexit/comments/bejsxp/more_brexit_backers_to_boycott/
Mmmm Stonehenge
http://blog.english-heritage.org.uk/excavation-restoration-stonehenge-1950s-60s
May have had a makeover 🙂