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Even the Queen is now being called a traitor by some in the Daily Mail comments section (I saw it on twitter, I don't visit the hateful wesbite myself!)
Amazing how many people (about 17.4 million) are very fond of what they think is democracy but when it comes down to what it actually is, alongside those minor inconveniences like parliamentary process and, oh yeah, sovereignty, they don't seem to like it at all.
Vote Lib Dem??
Well if you do let's not hear you complain about austerity,food banks,Universal Credit and the lack of PR.We are where we are on these matters precisely because of the Lib Dems not forgetting the fact that they wanted a referendum on EU membership over a decade ago.....And that magic great grandad Cable was as complicit as that t88t Clegg.Some people have got very short memories.
.And that magic great grandad Cable was as complicit as that t88t Clegg.Some people have got very short memories.
As a list it still makes them very much better than the rest.
Of all the cockwombles in the ERG he really is the wobbliest cock
Wombliest surely?
Let's not forget that the country's finances were in a wee bit of a pickle back in 2010 so some cutting back needed to be done at that point.
In fact even Labour (Ed Milliband) at the time stood on a manifesto of austerity being required.
So short memories indeed....
I'm not taking anything away from the level of crud this Tory government has inflicted upon us all - and the Libdems were damned by association, but let's not be so daft as to think that if we hadn't had the coalition gov then there would have been no austerity as we'd have had some of that in any instance.
If we aren't going to vote for any party that has in the past made mistakes, then there is not a single party to vote for other than a brand new one.
The point is, if you don't want Brexit then vote for a party that might stop it... if you are not bothered enough about Brexit and the damage it will do to hold your nose and vote for Libdems, TIG or Green etc. then carry on as you were.
Vote for now not the past.
All TIG will do is split the anti tory vote thus leading to more tory representation. Read some history
Your only realistic anti tory choice is lib dem in a very few constituencies manly in the south west. Labour in the rest of england and SNP in Scotland. anything else is a vote for the tories by proxy.
TIG are tories anyway. Just pale blue ones
Well if you do let’s not hear you complain about austerity,food banks,Universal Credit and the lack of <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">PR.We</span> are where we are on these matters precisely because of the Lib Dems not forgetting the fact that they wanted a referendum on EU membership over a decade ago…..And that magic great grandad Cable was as complicit as that t88t <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">Clegg.Some</span> people have got very short memories.
In my opinion we are where we are because lots of people overlook the Lib Dems moderating the excesses of the Tory party for 5 years, decided to punish them for not implementing every aspect of the Lib Dem manifesto (despite being in coalition so both parties had to renege on some commitments), thereby allowing the Tory party to make up for lost time at the next election.
PR - Cameron only offered the choice of the shittiest form of PR and then spent the entire run up to the referendum telling people that it would deliver a BNP led government.
I could go on.
Blaming the Lib Dems for being moderating minor partners in a coalition and punishing them for the Tories being Tories is a bit....shortsighted? self-defeating?
Maybe Lib Dem voters demand 100% delivery of their ideals so are angry when it doesn't happen (probably need to grow up and be a bit more pragmatic). Tories will always vote Tory regardless because they are selfish, thoughtless ****s so the Tories were less affected by the coalition years.
Let’s not forget that the country’s finances were in a wee bit of a pickle back in 2010 so some cutting back needed to be done at that point.
In fact even Labour (Ed Milliband) at the time stood on a manifesto of austerity being required.
So short memories indeed….
Yeah and the financial pickle was all Labour's fault......or so they said at the time.The whole austerity agenda as the supposed solution to the country's financial ills was debunked but seems some folk are still believeing the hype.And Ed Milliband wouldn't have been there if Clegg had got into bed with Brown rather than Cameron.....
Well if you do let’s not hear you complain about austerity,food banks,Universal Credit and the lack of PR.We are where we are on these matters precisely because of the Lib Dems
This is absolutely incorrect. Austerity was not a Lib Dem policy. It was a Tory policy, the LDs simply couldn't stop the Tories implementing it. But the Tories came up with it and did it, so we have it BECAUSE of the Tories.
If you're suggesting that simply re-running the election would have delivered a Labour majority or LD/Lab coalition, well, you're a dreamer.
Nah, all three parties stood on austerity manifestos at that election. Current Labour leader was dead against that at the time, but his party leadership at the time were not. Tories were least transparent about where cuts would occur, and tax rises would happen… both Labour and LibDems make suggestions about the shape of austerity… and the Tories hit them hard in the campaign because of it (only to enveil their own priorities after the election).
TIG are tories anyway. Just pale blue ones.
Exactly, they just happen to be remain. I would imagine their manifesto will hardly differ from the Tory party. A number of them were in the Tory party and only someone with zero empathy or care for equality would ever be in the tory party. Leaving the tory party because you don't like their brexit stance is about the weakest thing you could leave the party for.
Maybe Lib Dem voters demand 100% delivery of their ideals so are angry when it doesn’t happen (probably need to grow up and be a bit more pragmatic).
Spot on, so many people here are willing to screw themselves over to deliver a message nobody is going to listen to.
All TIG will do is split the anti tory vote thus leading to more tory representation. Read some history
...
TIG are tories anyway. Just pale blue ones
And some of the Labour ones too, they will take from both sides (or the middle) Pale Blue also represents a decent chunk of people in this country no matter how much that annoys you TJ - is it not better they get a bunch of MP's that represent them?
TIG are tories anyway.
Sigh - if you think that everyone that disagrees with you is a "Tory" - you are the problem (for the party you claim to support, just as much as for the country as a whole).
TIG are tories - look at them and their history. Ummna joined the labour party because they were right of centre at the time he joined and he thought it his best chance of power. Once he realised they had gone back to being a leftish social democratic party and he had no chance of power he jumped. they are a bunch of chancers with one policy - remain. No programme, no manifesto, no philosophical underpinnings.
Lib Dems by entering coalition with the tories enabled them to do what they wanted. They should have done supply and confidence instead - look at the power the DUP have and compare it to what the Lib Dems had. Don't rewrite history. Clegg acheived zero in coalition. BTW - again remember history do not rewrite it. Lib Dems + labour + everyone else was barely enough for a majority and was unworkable anyway. LIb Dems + Labour would have been a minority.
If you buy the argument that we needed a stable government so the lib dems had to support the tories ( and I don't) then Supply and confidence was the right thing to do.
I haven't voted labour for a decade - not since their loss of power at Holyrood the the way they behaved since.
I would vote for whichever party is most likely to beat the tories in a marginal. I have never lived in a marginal until now when my seat has become a 3 way marginal. In PR elections I vote green ( everything bar westminster) Next westminster election I will have a very difficult choice to make.
Labour fought that election under austerity lite for 2 reasons - they were no longer a leftwing party so didn't want to raise taxes adn also their fear of Murdoch. Austerity was not a necessity - it was a political choice and has done nothing anyway bar killing growth and increasing poverty. We were and still are a low tax country.
I voted Labour at the last election, I've never voted Tory, I never voted Labour under Blair because of his marketisation of public services… yet people like you think I and most of the country are Tory. Enjoy killing the Labour Party. My vote is going Change UK, LibDem or Green at the next election… a wasted vote is better than voting to support what the Labour Party is becoming…
Edit:
I haven’t voted labour for a decade
Hang on… you don't vote Labour anyway?! ?!? What the actual … ?!? So people standing as something other than Labour are "splitting the anti-Tory vote", yet you don't vote Labour yourself?
Anyone else got thier 'you need a green card to drive in Europe' letter from insurers.
Yeah, this 'they need is more than we need them' is going real smooth..
The argument that everyone to the right of Corbyn ‘just doesn’t get it’ and is ‘a Tory’ is fine.
Unless you actually want to get elected. In which case you’ve got a problem. Because that kind of attitude is really inclusive, isn’t it?
Insult everyone then telling them they’re wrong is a renowned tactic for winning landslide victories
There are loads of natural labour voters, myself included, who regard that kind of puerile, 6th form level ‘debate’ utterly repellent
Add in the ‘Lexit’ nonsense and Corbyn’s enablement of Brexit and you’ve scared off a massive chunk of moderate voters who presently feel politically homeless and completely unrepresented
I’m sorry but ‘we’re shit but at least we’re not the Tories’ just isn’t going to cut it as an electoral success story
..... like me.
Labour haemorrhaging even more votes than the Tories now.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahah. Corbyns losing against literally the shittest PM since Chamberlain.
Kelvin
My Westminster seat was safe labour until the snp landslide on the back of the collapse of Scottish labour after their disgusting behaviour since loosing power at Holywood. All other elections in Scotland are PR so a vote for green is not wasted.
Binners. So no place in England for anything left of centre? Got any hard left labour policy? Something that is not firmly in the European social Democratic tradition?
. So no place in England for anything left of centre?
Of course there is.
In a minority party.
, I never voted Labour under Blair because of his marketisation of public services…
So youagree that Blair took labour too far to the right but the modestmove back to the left is too extreme?
Come on - one labour policy that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition>
Binners - just look at what corbyn and labour are actually saying and proposing as policies - not what the tory press paints them as.
come on - one hard left policy? One tiny weeny one?
UK parties right to left
Ukip - neofacists
tory - Hard right
Blairs labour, Cleggs Lib dems TIG - right of centre
Traditional labour ( where they are now), Traditional Lib Dems, SNP - left of centre
Scottish socialist, socialist worker, peoples front of Judea assorted loons like respect - hard left
You forget TJ, I'm a Tory, and so are you… as are plenty of Labour MPs… or something. We're all at least "right of centre" anyway, apart from the true believers, that you don't even lend your vote to anyway.
Rayban - Binners - have Scotland and England really diverged that far? Scotland has several parties with representation that make up well over half the vote that are to the left of Blairs labour and around the same place as Corbyns labour - some well to the left.
The SNP are well to the left of Blairs labour yet yo9u think they are great despite being like corbyns labour firmly in the european social democratic tradition.
NOpe Kelvin - I am a dark green. Well to the left of Corbyns labour.
Splitter. Or at least "splitting the anti-Tory vote"… but that's fine for you, because you're special. The rest of us are enabling the Tories… or something.
Liberation front of Judea?
The electoral systems in use in Scotland mean its only for westminster elections you need to vote anti tory and until the last election the tories were in a hopeless minority in my seat so no chance of winning so no need to vote anti tory
If I lived in a labour / tory marginal I would vote labour as the anti tory vote. If I lived in a tory / lib dem marginal I would vote lib dem. Even if I had to hold my nose to do so.
tories are scum. anything to keep them out.( bar UKIP of course)
Politics here is very differnt because everything bar westminster is PR
so - those hard left labour policies like worker representation on boards? As in Germany and not fought even by their right of centre parties? essential public services in public hands? As in most of Europe? DEcent benefits and minimum wages? Decent protection for workers? all had left policies followed by the right wing German government?
norbert colon
Let’s not forget that the country’s finances were in a wee bit of a pickle back in 2010 so some cutting back needed to be done at that point...
If the cutting back had been the heads of the banking chiefs on pikes outside the city gates, then it may have worked...
Or at least done it like Iceland.
Binners – just look at what corbyn and labour are actually saying and proposing as policies – not what the tory press paints them as.
Another vote winner there, bound to get everyone inside.
Telling everyone that they're effectively unthinking drones, incapable of independent thought, who believe everthing that Murdoch spoon-feeds them in the Sun
So … just policies like those in European countries … that we allegedly need to leave the EU to implement?
You forget TJ, I’m a Tory
Oh give over with the faux outrage. You spend way more time criticising and obsessing over labour than the tories. That doesn't make you a tory, but it doesn't mean you're not helping them. Are you really going to vote for the likes of Mike Gapes and Joan Ryan? By all means vote Green, or even libdem if you have to and live in a non-labour marginal, but please don't waste it on these vacuous egotists. If however you do live in a labour marginal and are against the tories then you have no choice. Unless you can stomach putting Borish Johnson in power. Just think about that for a second and ask if it's less important than your obsession with labour's support for a soft brexit.
you have no choice
I have a choice. As do those controlling Labour policy. They can choose policies I support, and then I'll choose to vote for them again.
labour’s support for a soft brexit
Is totally missing in action.
you have no choice
People have a choice to make on 2nd May
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_local_elections
Then you will have a choice on 22nd May if we have Euro Elections, both will be a good barometer of the feeling and have a huge impact on the leadership of both the main parties. It's also a big opportunity to both shape the local future and send a message.
TJ, because I can't be arsed to write a paragraph for you on why I don't like Corbyn - just for you to say "You're wrong" and saunter off - many of my own views are highlighted in this article.
His attitude to foreign policy and his economic protectionism put me off as does his terrible attitude towards the EU - and if Labour were to get in with a decent majority I am fairly certain that Corbyn would not limit himself to the shackles of the party manifesto.
Talking about the manifesto - it was way too vague and contained language that I found fairly foreboding coming from Corbyn and his advisers
Labour will turn this around. We will upgrade our economy, breaking down the barriers that hold too many of us back, and tackling the gender pay gap. Our National Transformation Fund will deliver the investment that every part of Britain needs to meet its potential, overcoming years of neglect. Our industrial strategy will support businesses to create new, high-skilled, high-paid and secure work across the country, in the sectors of the future such as renewables. We will stop our financial system being rigged for the few, turning the power of finance to work for the public good. And we will put small businesses at the centre of our economic strategy.
The growth created by our national investment plan, underpinned by the responsible economic management embodied in our Fiscal Credibility Rule, will create good jobs, drive up living standards and improve the public finances.
It is a plan that will deliver Labour’s vision of an economy that works for the many, not just the few – a Britain in which no one is held back.
So apart from the economic Britain first nationalism that I stongly dislike, how does Labour intend to fulfill this promise - seize bank assets?
This is absolutely incorrect. Austerity was not a Lib Dem policy. It was a Tory policy, the LDs simply couldn’t stop the Tories implementing it
Oh dear....I'm not you are.Lib Dems enabled the Tory austerity policy!!!! They betrayed the country and large swathes of their own members.They had a once in a lifetime opportunity to press for electoral reform and blew it.Anyway it's all history now,just that some people clearly need reminding of what actually happened.Clegg got seduced by the smell of power and the deputy prime minister job and the LibDems and the country got shafted by Cameron/Osborne leading to the total collapse of the Lib Dem vote in 2015.I won't even mention tuition fees.As I've said earlier in this thread if itwasn't for Brexit god only knows what the Cameron/Osborne axis would be inflicting on the nation.
We’re all at least “right of centre” anyway,
As a matter of interest, where is the centre? You know, in policy terms?
Mays attempts to shift the blame for this shitshow onto Labour are so transparent, its ridiculous. Its actually laughable to think that it was ever going to wash
Hang on, isn't that exactly what you've spent every fifth post in the last 300 pages doing?
Even the Queen is now being called a traitor by some in the Daily Mail comments section
I've said it before but I swear to your deity of choice, we wouldn't be in this mess now if three or so years ago the Remain groups had put their campaign funds towards supplying 17.4 million dictionaries.
Vote Lib Dem??
Well if you do let’s not hear you complain about austerity,food banks,Universal Credit and the lack of PR.
And that, right there, is a shining example of exactly why we're screwed.
The electorate suffers badly from inertia. You could have one party promising to abolish VAT and give free kittens for all, and another suggesting we stone the gayers to death and eat the elderly, yet come polling time people will vote the way they've always voted because that's what they always do.
We're facing the single biggest threat to our way of life since WWII and people are still sitting there going "yes but tuition fees / the Iraq war / free milk in schools." How many seats actually change from election to election? Only the ones whose constituencies have been hung since the Whigs were in power. How often do you see a party in a constituency getting 5% of the votes one election and 60% on the next?
Lib Dems enabled the Tory austerity policy!!!! They betrayed the country and large swathes of their own members.
The LDs were damned either way. As a minority voice in a coalition they had to pick their battles
As TJ says, S&C was the way to go. Full coalition was a poor decision.
So once again when challenged none of the Corbyn haters can actually point to any policy that they dislike
Edit bar going for the softest of soft brexit
As TJ says, S&C was the way to go. Full coalition was a poor decision.
Well there we go life with 20/20 hindsight, how long you going to keep punishing them for? How long are people going to keep screwing over the country over shit like that. It's worse than a bunch of bickering teenagers some days.
As TJ says, S&C was the way to go.
Sorry, what's "S&C"?
Cougar
I think we agree...
I think we're the only country in the EU that doesn't have PR and that imho explains why we can't sort this mess out.In the Thatcher era Labour made all the right noises about electoral reform/PR but it was quietly binned when Blair got in power.
So once again when challenged none of the Corbyn haters can actually point to any policy that they dislike
The one where he is dithering now, the fact he can't see he is no the reason labour will struggle to get into power.
As a leader he is too polarising and does not have his party fully with him, for a tory that is not as much of a problem as they generally require less popular vote to get in, labour need more and need more of the swing voters. Those are the ones he has lost.
can actually point to any policy that they dislike
Bullshit. Read this thread. People have detailed many steps and decisions made (or abdicated) over the last three years, where he has disappointed and dismayed many people who voted Labour. You didn't even vote for his party with him as leader, some of us did, but you call us "haters". Just grow up.
Sorry, what’s “S&C”?
Sorry Cougar - Supply and Confidence. Support on a policy-by-policy choice. Green Party in Scotland has adopted this method and is doing quite well out of it.
Well there we go life with 20/20 hindsight,
Except that many folk said it at the time.
In general though, I agree that past decisions can't be allowed to affect future voting intentions forever.
Supply and confidence
I think we agree…
I think we’re the only country in the EU that doesn’t have PR and that imho explains why we can’t sort this mess out.
On that point at least we agree (though I don't know who in the EU does or doesn't have PR). But it's only part of the problem. Simple answers to complex questions are generally problematic (as convincingly evidenced in 2016).
and almost as many said we needed the stability of a coalition government, it was a call that had to be made, with S&C then very few if any lib dem policies would have made it to even being talked about and I'm not sure how long the parliament would have lasted.
Some people are very bitter about the past and want to try and settle scores and show that they were right all along. It's part of the current problem in the UK right now.
+1 Cougar to your last post on the previous page
So once again when challenged none of the Corbyn haters can actually point to any policy that they dislike
Edit bar going for the softest of soft brexit
People vote on manifestos. There's plenty in the manifesto I dislike, on top of their handling of Brexit. I have provided one example already, on top of an article that explains why many are deeply distrustful of Labours current leadership.
Find me the detailed policy documents on exactly how labour intends to fulfill their vague manifesto and I'll respond.
many of my own views are highlighted in this article.
And here I was thinking it was simply because you were a reactionary snob.
Hang on, isn’t that exactly what you’ve spent every fifth post in the last 300 pages doing?
Well I didn't like to say 🙂
Lib Dems enabled the Tory austerity policy
What should they have done? They couldn't have stopped it, but by entering into the coalition they could (and perhaps did) soften it or other areas of policy.
Your assessment appears naive.
Bullshit. Read this thread.
It's still just one policy though isn't despite the many ups and downs. And Ironically it's the one policy which could be described as a classic centrist compromise borne of pragmatism and a Blairite triangulation strategy.
What should they have done?
Ask yourself the exact same question about labour brexit policy. I have a lot of sympathy for the libdems. They made a colossal mistake and are now paying for it. Many have learned lessons from it, including the current labour leadership, which is never betray your core support by going against a core election pledge which is extremely important to them.
including the current labour leadership, which is never betray your core support by going against a core election pledge which is extremely important to them.
enabling a Tory brexit is not the Labour manifesto policy.
The membership voted democratically to go 2nd ref when GE was gone - that has mostly been ignored.
You also need t o look at solid public opinion which is going against brexit.
But at this point what they are completely missing is a competent salesman who can carry people with them, rather than hiding from the demands and groundswell of opinion.
I've seen scores of MP's speak more passionately, with more conviction and with more sincerity than Corbyn on all of this, when there is a hard choice you need to make sure you get people on your side. You do that by being honest and up front with people.
I've heard most of the labour front bench commit to 2nd ref almost trying to make sure Corbyn has to not because he asked them to.
I’ve thought of a great nickname for that bell-end Francois.
Poison Penfold (of the TA).
You know, in policy terms?
No idea. I'd consider myself left of centre, not that it's hugely relevant to this thread.
It’s still just one policy
Check the thread title. I'll discuss other policies elsewhere, if you like, but let's do that bore off (squirrel!) stuff elsewhere please.
You also need t o look at solid public opinion which is going against brexit.
I'm not denying the tides have changed. There is now an undoubted shift towards a 2nd ref and away from the ridiculous tory idea of an easy brexit. And labour policy has shifted with it, which is why they adopted the 2nd ref fallback and are now becoming more vocal about it. It's still a delicate balancing act though. They are however moving in the right direction. Obviously not as fast as many would like, but I think they're calculating that if/when they shift there will be a tipping point and many of their supporters who are now questioning their policy, will come flooding back under the pressure of preventing the likes of Boris Johnson from becoming PM. They will lose votes for sure, but probably not nearly as many as everyone thinks.
And labour policy has shifted with it, which is why they adopted the 2nd ref fallback and are now becoming more vocal about it.
And the point being this is way beyond the time to be getting more vocal....
They are however moving in the right direction. Obviously not as fast as many would like, but I think they’re calculating that if/when they shift there will be a tipping point and many of their supporters who are now questioning their policy, will come flooding back under the pressure of preventing the likes of Boris Johnson from becoming PM. They will lose votes for sure, but probably not nearly as many as everyone thinks.
Lol calculating?? Did you type that seriously? Unless this is such a cunning strategy that nobody can tell what it is then it's not calculated as much as back of a very small fag packet.
molgrips
Subscriber
Lib Dems enabled the Tory austerity policy
What should they have done? They couldn’t have stopped it, but by entering into the coalition they could (and perhaps did) soften it or other areas of policy.
Your assessment appears naive.
If they had gone supply and confidence they would have held MUCH more power - like the DUP are now and the Greens in Scotland. As it was once Clegg pledged they were it it for the full five years they had zero power at all as the tories knew no matter what they did Clegg would not vote them down. However they did enable that hard right tory governent to survive for five years and enabled lots of ghastly policies.
An utter failure, one that was predictable and well foreseen and one they have been rightly punished for.
An utter failure, one that was predictable and well foreseen and one they have been rightly punished for.
and I bet your loving being so right, apart from it's not the Lib Dems being punished it's the UK at the moment.
Lol calculating?
You've swallowed too much of Binners' sixth form stuff. Disagree with them all you like, but do you doubt that the labour party have spent a lot of the substantial amount of money they have raised on polling, research and advice on how to navigate a way through this conundrum?
You’ve swallowed too much of Binners’ sixth form stuff.
No I've just been paying attention, I've watched debates and read around along with following a lot of this.
Some of that polling data was floated recently and it said that the majority of those voting leave in labour seats didn't actually vote labour at the last election. The numbers also were showing that the leave vote was not as bad for them as was first proclaimed. Meanwhile they are pissing off a huge amount of remain voters.
I'm sure this advice as to how to navigate this will become clear at some point... at the moment it sounds nothing more credible than THM's grown ups claim.
Regardless of the advice and strategy who is out there convincing people that they should follow and trust them? Who is selling this vision, who is standing up and saying back us and we will look after you. So far it's not Corbyn.
And here I was thinking it was simply because you were a reactionary snob.
Please, enough with the compliments.
As a Liberal voter in all of the elections when I've actually lived in the UK, I thought they did an exceptionally poor job as part of the coalition.
I was working in the university sector during this period and witnessed firsthand how the saddling of students with the crippling debt levels that came with the trebling of tuition fees resulted in staggeringly little improvement to learning and teaching.
Instead we saw a zero sum game pissing contest between universities as to who could waste the most money on pointless building projects, senior management pay and ill advised forays into overseas provision. In short, it's been a complete disaster, and there's a massive public funding black hole coming when the highly optimistic repayment forecasts are, inevitably, not met.
Still, at least they're not 19th Century throwbacks or Marxist loons.
JP
Vocal partisans are wrecking politics in the USA and putting a lot of centrist voters off.
I wonder if people with the attitudes of Daz and TJ are doing the same. It's not that people are getting put off by boring centerists, people are getting put of by parties that are pandering to vocal minorities on both the left and right.
The reality is that we are in a potential no deal scenario precisely because the two main parties have eviscerated their centres and chased peripheral voters. The Tories thought they had to hook Ukipers to get an upper hand, labour still think they need to hang on to a national minority of old labour support. Meanwhile, what we really needed was a sensible centerist coalition to keep the crazies and brexiteers at bay.
I wonder if people with the attitudes of Daz and TJ are doing the same.
A vocal partisan? Nothing I have said is even half as extreme as the bile spewed forth from your own keyboard. The people wrecking politics are those misrepresenting others and lying about simple facts which we used to take for granted.
Rayban - quite the opposite IMO
Under Blair the more he pushed the party to the right the fewer votes he got and the party in Scotland collapsed completely. 40+ Scots MPs to 1!
along with that was a collapse in membership and activists leaving them very short of people on the ground todo the donkey work. Much of this has reversed. Moving to the centre is always only a short term fix.
Yes when you have a membership more radical than the average voter you do have an issue. However the idea that Corbyn is leading a hard left party with hard left policies is simple nonsense - again - not once have any of you beenable to point to a single labour policy that is not mainstream social democratic. The SNP and the Greens in Scotland are far more radical than English labour - and have between them had a majority for 10 years now.
Hah! I might be a die hard remoaner Daz, but at least I don't believe that the Labour party isn't anti-semitic, that centerist neoliberals (who have done more for the developing world by ending protectionism than the far left ever has) are the height of evil and that it's remainers who are horrible divisive malcontents (despite never having killed an MP) who hate the noble working classes.
Nor am I using Tory as an insult for New Labour and Lib Dem supporters like TJ.
Both of you are part of the problem in the UK. At least TJ is trying to argue his point though, even if he has yet to convert me.
Back on some sort of topic...
European Council president Donald Tusk has suggested offering the UK a "flexible" extension to Brexit of up to a year, with the option of leaving earlier if a deal is ratified.
He said there was "little reason to believe" a Brexit deal would be approved by the extension deadline UK PM Theresa May has requested - 30 June.
Writing to EU leaders, he said any delay should have conditions attached.
EU states will vote on the extension proposals at a summit on Wednesday.
A draft EU document circulated to diplomats ahead of the emergency summit also proposes an extension but leaves the date of the proposed new deadline blank.
The BBC's Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said the document referred to an extension lasting "only as long as is necessary and, in any event, no longer than XX.XX.XXXX and ending earlier if the withdrawal agreement is ratified".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47874367
Looks like 1 year, nobody has any faith we have a way out of this so EU elections to be fought, there was also a leak/suggestion that neither Labour or Tories can afford an election at the moment, especially with big backers apparently with the independents that could make things very interesting.
May has lost her grass roots, Labours are not all in line, could make things way more open than some people think.
ERG members really going for it today, thumping their chests and threatening to wreck the EU from the inside, while claiming 80% of voters voted to not have any kind of relationship with the EU. These bastards are trying to wreck everything for all of us, and they claim they are doing it for us, at our insistence. If this long delay does happen, it's time for clear messaging… and that means voting for parties that have a clear message.
it’s time for clear messaging… and that means voting for parties that have a clear message.
yep **** your political allegiances at this point, in the local and EU elections do not vote for any pro brexit candidate, but at this point we need a big turnout in these elections.
It's a good sign if the ERG nutters are having an existential crises.criceese? What's the plural for that?
The more they talk the more stupid they look.
despite never having killed an MP
And you you call me a vocal partisan and extremist?
When do the EU tax avoidance laws get tightened again? some time soon I'm sure.
I'm not supprised the anuses of the ERG and others are tightening.
The one ray of light I've seen this week has been the number of leavers, on any Facebook post talking about the EP elections, angrily proclaiming that they will never vote AGAIN!!!!! Which I'm all for.
Which I’m all for.
I am not sure it is a particularly good thing having people feeling completely disenfranchised from the political system.