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So don’t vote for them again, if enough of your neighbours’s thought that way they’ll lose and another candidate will be selected. If you’re ‘usual party’ isn’t fielding good candidates, vote for another one.
Politics should flow upwards, MPs should be listening to their constituents, parties to their MPs and Leaders so their Party – not the other way around.
Completely agree, but there's no other credible parties that could win here.
I suspect Plaid will do relatively well in the next GE in Wales.
I wish the BbC would spend more time interviewing the moderate normal MPs instead of giving Airtime to the nutters.
The reason why successful governments in the UK are often moderate is because that’s where most of the population are.
Are they, or do they just think they are and are sold that Labour polices are now Marxist. If most people are presented with Labour polices (without being told if they are Labour, Tory, Left, Right) they typically say that it sounds like a good idea.
That is because they are not 'far left' as the media would have people believe and Corbyn is not going to be taking everyone's house and wealth back to the state for redistribution.
See, why do you go all left/right…?!?
Plenty on both left and right that want Brexit. Plenty of people who consider that is an extreme action that will effect their lives negatively.
Does Brexit sounds like a "good idea"?
I wish the BbC would spend more time interviewing the moderate normal MPs instead of giving Airtime to the nutters.
A-frickin'-men. I appreciate they're hamstrung in their pursuit of balance, but jesus, don't forget there's far more people in the middle than there are at the edges (not, I should state, proof of a flat earth, flat earthers).
Loads of irrelevant shite being spouted in the HoL at the moment in an attempt to talk out the Cooper bill. Others saying they have brought camp beds and don't care how long the sitting lasts. They clearly need Bercow there turfing out the crap before it comes before the house.
The reason why successful governments in the UK are often moderate is because that’s where most of the population are.
Define "successful"!
Define "moderate"!
And is that really where most of the poulation are?
The NHS and the Welfare state sound like Marxist populist madness to me .....
Absolutely not. Read the GFA. You can be a citizen of NI and absolutely refuse to be a UK citizen. One of the things the GFA enabled that will be destroyed when we Leave the EU… as the UK gov will either have to force UK citizenship on people who are Irish in NI, or give them a lesser status (along with other EU citizens) than UK citizens.
Thanks, apologies. Didn't know all that - although I think the GFA uses the term 'people of NI' 'not citizens of NI' and it was the word 'citizen' the originally confused me, but I'm not going to be pedantic. So the Brexit mess is even worse that I thought.
Marxist populist madness to me …..
Yeah, right-o
The NHS and the Welfare state sound like Marxist populist madness to me …..
What would your ideal be?
Thats the dilemma though, isn’t it? I live in a marginal consituancy that swings between labour and Tory. What am I supposed to do? I just want the Tories out as I loath them with every fibre of my being. And in a FPTP electoral system I have only one way of contributing to that. To think local, hold my nose and vote labour
The fact that "magic granddad" Binners of all people is saying this should tell us all we need to know.
I live in a similar constituency and at the last GE did exactly this. The difference between Labour and Conservative is literally a handful of votes and outstrip the also-rans a hundred-fold. I could vote against the Tories by voting Labour, or I needn't have bothered turning up.
And sure, it'll get spun as "80% etc etc" but there's two things to consider here. 1) The notion that the two major parties command the bulk of the votes is hardly news, most people vote the way they've always voted (someone mentioned inertia earlier), and 2) whatever we do it's going to get spun because that's what these shitehawks do for a living. Of all the brexit lies it's probably one I'm going to lose the least sleep over compared to the alternative.
In any case, my local incumbent Labour MP (Graham Jones) seems like a decent guy from what I can tell. Does a lot of work for the local community and whenever I've looked at his voting record I've never had cause to reach for the pitchforks.
You're lucky Cougar, I've got Chris Grayling as my MP.
Akira, me too.
I’ve got Geoffrey cox. He has a >20,000 majority...
You’re lucky Cougar, I’ve got Chris Grayling as my MP.
Oh jeez, my sympathies. Is moving an option?
I appreciate they’re hamstrung in their pursuit of balance, but jesus, don’t forget there’s far more people in the middle than there are at the edges (not, I should state, proof of a flat earth, flat earthers).
Most of the media realised a long time ago that being moderate and in-the-middle didn't get viewers, clicks and engagement. The utopian ideal of truth took a back seat to entertainment, ideally of the shouty extreme nature because it's what gets people watching.
No-one listens to the common sense routine, everyone wants the extreme funny / extravagant / ridiculous either so they can shout "yeah, you tell 'im!" or "**** you, ****!" at the TV.
The BBC can't compete with that - there's an argument to say that it shouldn't even be trying to but then it would be immaterial what it showed or how it covered a story because no-one would be watching, they'd all be over on the tabloid pages which cover it in broad strokes while having some tits and gossip on display to hold the attention.
Couple that with the known rigging of the referendum, the targeted social media adverts and the various biases of the various news organisations and while getting information is easier than at any previous point in human history, getting the truth (rather ironically) is harder than ever.
The NHS and the Welfare state sound like Marxist populist madness to me …..
What would your ideal be?
Marxist populist madness to me …..
Yeah, right-o
🙄
Most of the media realised a long time ago that being moderate and in-the-middle didn’t get viewers, clicks and engagement.
You Won't Believe What Happened Next!
Our business today lost over £120k we expected for this next financial year.
Our partners in two EU countries for two different Erasmus+ projects were advised to remove the UK partners by thier national agency's in light of the uncertainty over Brexshit.
Nope you're imagining it, all that stuff is definitely project fear, our betters told us it, so it must be true.
*in all seriousness, that's shit, and the kind of event that will be repeating itself all over the country, what a bag of **** Brexit is.
The BBC takes it's 'balance' from the press. Farage's genius was to tap in to the press coverage, thereby get himself on mainstream TV at every opportunity.
Plus no-deal also hurts the EU and its members, albeit less than it hurts us.
47% drop in house prices might hurt!
Anyone else see question time tnight?, I thought David Lammy was going to absolutely *flatten* Charles Moore (utterly reprehensible oxygen thief) in their exchange regarding a “no deal Brexit”.
Come the revolution I want the likes of Charles Moore to ....................... 😉
On the subject of "lost income for the UK" . . . I helped Guide a group of school teens from Belgium who were visiting here last week. 80 of them come here every year - they were doing Canoeing, Canyoning etc.
One of the teachers was talking to me about Brexit and said that every year this "year" of school teens (whichever year they were, 4th year maybe?) come to Ainsa / Zona Zero for an adventure week and at the same time the kids who are in 5th year go to London for a cultural city trip. This year those kids went to Berlin instead of London because of worries over travelling during Brexit.
I don't know what the monetary value of 80 kids plus teachers is to the economy but it's certainly not pennies.
I'm.guessing Charles Moore was the one who complained about a lack of leavers? Was at my folks who swapped to sky news after that, the leaver on there was repeating the same 2nd ref is affront to democracy lines... No wonder they don't get invited when they only have one set of lines.
Now that we won’t be paying to mend the roads in Majorca how long will it be til our roads are of the same quality?
I’m expecting a major road mending project in the summer and hospital waiting lists halved by Christmas.
I shall be regularly giving mr grayling the full gammon if these expectations aren’t realised. Please do the same to your leave mp.
They have no one else to hide behind now.
Newport by-election, showed a reduced turnout, a hold by labour, a swing to the Tories & in increase in ukip, Renew guy a few% which is a start, I suppose.
I think it's time the parties split, I just don't see how they can continue to walk the line & this is more of a problem for labour.
People have always backed the Tories even if they know it's economically bad for them. Little c conservatism trumps the social good, especially with older voters.
a hold by labour, a swing to the Tories
Labour down 12, Tories down 8. I suppose that is technically a swing to the Tories but its a funny way to report it. Gains for the little guys.
Half the turnout of last time. That is pretty interesting. Those people who decided not to vote, probably because they thought it was a waste of time, could've got anyone elected comfortably
I would say that the big story is, in a time when politics is front and center in everyday life, that the turnout was virtually halved from the last election.
That isn't a swing to anybody, it shows that the major parties are not offering what the electorate want, that the mass of the electorate do not want to give their approval to any of the available options.
I was hoping for a swing to the new remain party, but I think realistically they are too late, they need to build up some momentum, and perhaps need some kind of national figurehead to get some media air time.
I would say that the big story is, in a time when politics is front and center in everyday life, that the turnout was virtually halved from the last election.
I'd say the opposite. By-election turnouts are usually lower than at GE, in this case it wasn't particularly marginal anyway, and frankly given the turmoil it might only be a month or so before an another GE anyway, then what's the frigging point?
and the weather was shite!
The low turnout will, in part, be due to the atrocious weather but it does seem to indicate that maybe not everyone has become as animated about politics as we have in our little bubble, maybe...?
I’d say the opposite. By-election turnouts are usually lower than at GE, in this case it wasn’t particularly marginal anyway, and frankly given the turmoil it might only be a month or so before an another GE anyway, then what’s the frigging point?
In normal times yes, but in a time when no single party holds a majority, and parliament is in turmoil, one seat flipped could make all the difference. People are crying out for a message to get behind. But the candidates from both major parties gave non committal fudged answers throughout the campaign, rather reflecting their party leadership.
The electorate desperately want something to vote FOR, but neither the tories or labour are currently offering that
…not everyone has become as animated about politics as we have in our little bubble, maybe…?
My other half was giving me the "if we have a general election, there really is no one I can vote for this time" line last night… I can see low turnout becoming the new normal… it'll be painted as people being disengaged or disinterested, but I doubt very much it's really that simple. They have been abandoned.
If we do end up with a GE before "WA Brexit" is resolved, I know who I'll be voting for, despite them having a poor history in this constituency...
Lib-Dems all the way, because above everything else politically I'm aware of right now, I want us to remain. I'm sick to death of Labour/Corbyn sitting on the fence on this issue.
What could be very amusing is that if we have European elections & then a general elections we could end up with a higher turnout at the euros!
The problem there is that the kippers would be energised in EU elections, but the Tory/lab would be severely hampered by their main party leaderships.
My other half was giving me the “if we have a general election, there really is no one I can vote for this time”
Indeed my wife and me who she could vote for, I was unable to provide a response.
So Mays requested an extension to 30th of June. She is still in denial about how much of a bit of a mess this is, it isn't going to be resolved in a couple of months.
With any luck the EU will tell her to do one, and stick to their offer of an extra year with an option to exit early. Either way she needs to face humilation at the EU elections. The EU are seeing a future of short extensions as we fail to deliver any outcome, and don't want their parliamentary business dictated by our parliamentary indecisiveness.
Extension till 30th of June but possibly leaving earlier if deal done. And taking part in EU election.
That is gonna be another good day for gammon explosions.
Has the UK done the background administrative tasks to take part in EU elections?
She's achieved the sum total of sod all progress in 3 years, I'm sure it'll all be sorted by June.
She's such a coward. The Brexiteers are going to combust anyway, and they all despise her anyway, yet she she's still placating them every step of the way. She needs to grow a pair and tell them that the reality of the situation is that we need a long extension in order to resolve anything.
She won't of course. It won't be sorted by June, at which point she goes back and asks for another month. Repeat to fade....
or until the EU are sick of the fannying around and tell her to do one
My other half was giving me the “if we have a general election, there really is no one I can vote for this time”
While quoting yourself isn't a good look, in general, I'm going to put this up again.
If there is a GE, and you really can not find *any* of the candidates you could support (even one with no hope of winning) then please go along anyway and spoil your vote.
A vote for a minority candidate may avoid them losing their deposit, or encourage them to keep campaigning for whatever issue they (and maybe you) care deeply about, even if not elected.
A vote for a minority candidate helps build support for electoral reform – yes it’s unlikely we’ll ever ditch FPTP, but the smaller share the reds & blues get the more chance of change.
A spoiled vote still counts for turnout, and helps the whole system give a better reflection of the public will: imagine what millions of spoiled ballots would do to ‘legitimacy’ of the result. ‘None of the above, since you’re all ****!’ from millions of people?
Please do vote in some way, every time you can. For those you support, for no-one at all if you must. But please do vote.
Vote for who ever you agree with, even if they can't win. Even if not, please go vote in some way.
Imagine if the last by-election had returned a result of Labour getting the most votes, with 14.7% - which is what really happened. Less than 15% of registered voters, let alone eligible voters, voted for the winning MP. An MP who claims a mandate.
Granted it's not realistic to expect all the 62% of folk who couldn't be bothered to vote to turn out and spoil their papers rather than do whatever else they thought was more important. But that result would pull the rug out from under the established parties claims.
Or even better as said above, if they'd voted for anyone they cared about even a little bit, we might have got a different outcome. One that reflected people's actual preferences. And yes, it might not be someone I'd vote for, but it would be better than a labour MP voted for by less than 15%.
This smacks of TM trying to avoid being TOLD what to do by Yvette Coopers bill.
Has the UK done the background administrative tasks to take part in EU elections
the Electoral Commission has been notified, and the Order will be laid in Parliament next week.
The EU are prepared to offer one year extension to avoid the UK going back every month to ask for more time.
Er… Mr @sockpuppet I always vote… and was only recently stating my case for mandatory voting in this thread, with a clear formal way to register "none of the above" for those that feel they can't back any of the candidates/options presented to them. My point was that you can't read "didn't vote" as "not engaged"… it's not that simple. Many people see "staying away" as their best option when there seems to be no one for them to vote for.
I, personally, still have no idea how I would vote if we had a pre-Brexit General Election now… but I would… and feel that everyone should.
@kelvin I understand what you’re saying, and agree with some of it. But it’s impossible to tell from a no-show if you’re engaged and deliberately staying away to avoid voting, or if if you are disengaged and would rather be in the pub.
While a spoiled ballot isn’t an explicit none-of-the-above (which I’d like to see in future), a statistically large number of spoiled ballots (even if not the millions I’d like to see if folk really are engaged but staying away) *would* get noticed. It would affect the turnout figures and politicians could be challenged as to why they thought they could speak for us all when getting less than 20% of the votes, for example.
As for compulsory voting: maybe. I dislike compulsion in general. Folk could choose to do this, and at no cost. No new procedures or fines or anything. They could just make their disinterest in the candidates explicit.
Some of my wife’s extended family have opinions rather different to mine: I’ve limited my input to them to a pitch to get them to vote rather than stay away in protest: most had no idea you could go and spoil you ballot but still be counted. I have (I hope) had at least some effect there!
If the Brexit negotions are that important shouldn't Donald Tusk be banned from activities like this whilst negotions are ongoing as he is clearly not competant enough :
The négociations between the EU and UK finished ages ago.
The EU are waiting for the UK to make up its mind. 😉
I get the impression the EU end feels their part is done, 21, stick.
We're the clown show that just can't stop twisting even though we're currently tallying about 47.
The electorate desperately want something to vote FOR, but neither the tories or labour are currently offering that
As I've said repeatedly, this is never going to happen whilst the leave and remain factions stubbornly dig their heels in for what they want. On one side we have the no deal brigade, on the other the remain at all costs faction. Neither of these positions is tenable, and the longer it goes on the more people's faith in politics and democracy is eroded. I see otherwise normal moderate people on facebook calling for revolution, others saying we should ignore democracy and force through remain because the leavers are idiots and don't deserve a vote. And these positions are becoming more entrenched and are gaining support. The whole country's gone barking mad quite frankly.
The EU are prepared to offer one year extension to avoid the UK going back every month to ask for more time.
Basically making A50 period 3 years instead of 2. Not sure why the 2 year thing was seen as so important as it was clearly an arbitrary number put into a50 based on educated guess of how long it would take with no previous history to go by. The EU would always extend it anyway as if they have a reputation for anything it is for delaying and extending.
I suppose that they're just assume that, given another 12 months, we'll all just be so bored with it, that bar a few gammons going occassionally balistic we'll all have just gone back to watching X Factor and moaning about the weather
I cant see why a confirmatory public vote is such a problem, crap deal, no deal or stay.
I read a thing the other day that sums it up,
5 blokes going for a meal out so vote to decide which restaurant to go to ,3 to 2 so its decided, but day before meal they found out they serve dog turd sandwiches, do you a.insist on going as that was the will of the people or do you b. vote again having been armed with more information about said turd sarnies
5 blokes going for a meal
It’s ridiculous analogies like this which devalue the argument for a 2nd vote. It’s a problem because the fundamental principle of democracy is very important to a lot of people, and a pillar of our political system. Yes it can be argued that it’s not anti-democratic, but that argument needs to be won before we have one, and I’m not sure it has yet.
dazh
If the illegalities of the original vote are resolved then i will reconsider my remain position. Until then forget it. The vote was fraudulently obtained, and nothing in the UK makes fraud normal and acceptable. The police/courts investigate and prosecute. WE have had the investigations, we have had the fines. So where is the acceptance that the vote is at least questionable if not void.
I bet they'll be loss making boozers - good news for boycotting MTBers, the Cross Keys in Peeble and the Bourtree in Hawick will be sold off so anyone going to glentress of a weekend has somewhere to have a beer and burger
Watch it leavers, there's a legit mindwarrior on the remain side
Dazh the biggest problem with the result is that a. It was years ago and it's all changed since then
B. It was all lies
Or that leavers don't have one entrenched position, they have tons of them, all mutually exclusive.
Which is why we need a people's vote on any deal, because any deal will only ever have minority support. Democracy...
Dazh the biggest problem with the result is that a. It was years ago and it’s all changed since then
B. It was all lies
Not me you have to convince, it's all the people who are against one. What people don't understand is the idea of having another vote on something before the result of the original is enacted. Also some of the arguments used to support one are pretty flimsy. Stuff like 'it's been a long time', 'lots of leave voters have died', 'they spent too much money of facebook ads', 'people didn't understand what they were voting for', 'we were lied to' etc sound to leave voters like patronising excuses to get round the original result. A 2nd vote needs a cast-iron, unanswerable argument. I'm not saying there isn't one, but many people are far from persuaded.
What people don’t understand is the idea of having another vote on something before the result of the original is enacted.
The PM who promised to "enact" the result of the 2016 vote has done the grand sum of diddly squat to do just that. He buggered off to get paid huge money to chat to people about how jolly it was having his turn at running ruining the country. Now, if his successor, and the man who would seek to replace her in a general election, want to warble on about keeping that past PM's promise, then that's up to them… but people can shut up about it being undemocratic to ask us whether they have interpreted that now ancient result in a satisfactory manner, or if we, the people in this merry little union of countries they claim to serve, have seen though the bullshit even if they have not. By all means argue why you think it is unnecessary, or a distraction, or whatever you want, but to claim that it would be undemocratic to hold a referendum in 2019/20, because of the hubris of a parliamentary ghost now off getting fat on the memory of his past status… well screw that.
I think most people can agree that the system is somewhat broken. And whilst there is plenty of room for improvement, I really dislike that phrase because the real problem comes down to bad management from the government which introduced the entire idea without any kind of credible plan for implementing it.
We are now all acutely aware of this position and the damage that it has already caused.
Is it really democratic to continue down an eroded path, built on the poorest foundations, sold to the people through illegal means, when evidence suggests the majority of those people no longer wish to venture down there?
There is something badly wrong if there is no way to democratically stop such a damaging process.
How about telling all the shouty anti-democracy types:
“The amount of money already spent on Brexit & No-deal planning would pay for all the teachers/police/youth workers we need to sort out knife crime and give our kids the education they deserve”
Because they don't care.
They care about being on the winning side, whatever that victory looks like.
shouldn’t Donald Tusk be banned from activities like this
I didn't think I could like Donald Tusk any more.
What people don’t understand is the idea of having another vote on something before the result of the original is enacted.
The problem is that when it's explained to them clearly and concisely they still continue to come out with fictional nonsense like the accusation that absolutely anyone at all is "saying we should ignore democracy".
You're right though, the solution is education. I'm surprised it's not been mentioned before, but the referendum was advisory and we do not have direct democracy in this country. The government revoked A50 by their own volition rather than because the referendum instructed them to do so - as established in the court case a couple of months back. The leavers and leaver apologists are (probably wilfully) ignoring this, the sooner they get it into their skulls the easier all this will be. "Democracy" has been redefined as "anyone who agrees with us," and that's a travesty.
A 2nd vote needs a cast-iron, unanswerable argument.
Well, a) no it doesn't, it needs the government / parliament to say "we're holding a referendum," and b) there is one. Again, I'm amazed no-one has mentioned it before.
When we voted to leave in 2016 we had no idea what was actually on offer beyond "leaving" and no clue what that might entail. Now we do, we have an agreement in black and white which the EU27 has accepted.
As Del said, there's lots of reasons why people they voted to leave and thus by extension May's deal may or may not satisfy their desires. Another referendum isn't a vote on the same question as before, it's now "this is what we've come up with, is it what you want?"
I think most people can agree that the system is somewhat broken.
Really?
The system has allowed MPs to stop the PM doing whatever the hell she wants, and has started trying to force a consensus. It's forced the PM to attempt a cross party agreement. The system isn't broken; but the government is incompetent. Cameron's ref was an incredibly stupid idea, executed incredibly badly by May.
If you are expecting the system to return a competent government, you can dream on, because that part is on us, the electorate.
Anyway - France suggesting they won't allow an extension without a good reason, which forces us to choose between revoke and no deal.
which forces us to choose between revoke and no deal.
They'll go for no deal as to do that requires no action. Revocation will require a commons vote, and seeing as they can't even get mild soft brexit options through why would anyone believe revocation will be more successful?
The only solution is a deal. The extremes on both sides though seem intent on preventing one. Madness.
which forces us to choose between revoke and no deal.
Why does that preclude the deal the EU has already accepted and we're still squabbling over?
The only solution is a deal. The extremes on both sides though seem intent on preventing one. Madness.
The only solution is to remain. The extremes on one side though seem intent on preventing it. Madness.
The only solution is to remain. The extremes on one side though seem intent on preventing it. Madness.
And that is why we are in this mess. It really is a bit like climate change denial. Just keep your eyes closed and hope it will all go away. I really can't get my head around it.