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Very solid numbers for the CU, SM/CU and Conf Vote, all more popular than May’s deal as options.
Other way round mike,May's MV 3 got 286,that's more votes than anything tonight.
thesquaredog
Member
So why did the SNP abstain from the Customs Union vote?
Freedom of movement most likely.
Visual chart of the votes.
Check out @MShepheard’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/MShepheard/status/1112833986680840193?s=09
Basically the Tories blocking everything.
So what do the Tories actually want?
Why did Labour abstain?
Because even the very worst Brexit is better than no Brexit.
Ok thanks Kelvin.
Looks like we are heading out with no deal now IMHO. Unlikely we will get consensus before the deadline and I fear the EU will refuse to extend.
couldn’t care less about the citizenship aspect
Not true up here, quite important to most people I speak to.. I don't want to give up the EU citizenship, and I'm not going to either.
Why did Labour abstain?
Simple, labour are pitching themselves as the compromise party looking for a way to implement the referendum result in a way that's acceptable to the majority. Revocation is incompatible with that. Also, there will be more opportunities to avoid no deal. Revocation is the very last resort and still a possibility, more likely is a no confidence vote and an election. In that scenario the EU will grant another extension. In short, labour's calculation is political advantage vs a small risk of no deal. No doubt many will disagree with that, but no party is above their own political interest in this, hence why the SNP voted against the customs union.
Basically the Tories blocking everything.
Well, apart from Labour abstentions meaning that Parliament having the power to revoke A50 at last minute if required was rejected.
Take back control.
no deal now IMHO.
Nah, the law can quite easily be changed.
tbh I think something will be agreed, but would rather it came down to a binary choice, cause they won't chose no deal under those circumstances. If they are too shit scared to revoke themselves, they will put it back to a vote.
Other way round mike,May’s MV 3 got 286,that’s more votes than anything tonight.
Ah yes, only have the bill though 😉
To also add that is without the Cabinet who could sway that and bring others with them.
Despite all the talk of no compromise, plenty are offering the PM a simple way out - Take a Deal and put it to the people - the WA would be voted through by the end of the week if she took that exit. What's another u turn between friends 🙂
I think its going to be a no deal
I cant imagine the EU have much patience left
the hard brexiteers seem to have won
looking for a way to implement the referendum result in a way that’s acceptable to the majority.
WAKEY ****ING WAKEY!
Outline what that looks like, so it can be scrutinised.
Then ask for a majority to back it in a referendum.
Everything else is just politicians dicking around with our countries.
We won't thank those playing games this late in the day.
I think its going to be a no deal
I cant imagine the EU have much patience left
the hard brexiteers seem to have won
It may be optimism on my part but that has such little support in parliament it will not get pushed through by simply running the clock down.
At this point May has no majority, the DUP do not support her and as she is finished can't give them anything.
If no deal is the final option I fully expect the government to fall if they try and blunder through it.
It may be optimism on my part but that has such little support in parliament it will not get pushed through by simply running the clock down.
How will parliament stop it? Given that they can't even back an indicative vote suggesting that they should have the power to do so?
I think its going to be a no deal
I would hope not but I can think of several occasions in history where governments blundered into seriously detrimental situations due to being overtaken by events and just reacting.
The worrying thing is how many tory MPs have gone full loony tunes and started worshipping the idea of no deal.
Other way round mike,May’s MV 3 got 286,that’s more votes than anything tonight.
And how many votes were against it?
Let's wait it happens.
It's like a time dilation, the closer it gets, the more it slows down. It's almost like.. What's that film?
Or they could just do the enevitable, a binary choice in commons, or call a binary referendum between no deal or revoke.
Anything else is just pissing about.
How will parliament stop it? Given that they can’t even back an indicative vote suggesting that they should have the power to do so?
Bring down the government - they are in a serious minority state now
Other way round mike,May’s MV 3 got 286,that’s more votes than anything tonight.
because May insisted all those on the government payroll - around 100mps abstain or lose their jobs. simply so she could say this.
Bring down the government
Who then stops no deal, and how?
Think this political mess could easily be resolved:) If the remainers in parliament of all parties swallow the fact that we voted to leave rather than continuing to resist and calling for a re run (which I understand is difficult) then they could support May's withdrawal deal BUT with amendments about environmental and worker's rights and also that when the important bits of the future relationship are negotiated with the EU ie all these possible options that are being discussed at present ,then they have to be agreed by parliament and if necessary the final deal agreed by a referendum.This would sideline the extremist hard Brexit elements like the ERG and DUP.Yes there's still the backstop issue but all the other options except being in the singlemarket mean a hard border and if we're in the singlemarket then we're not really leaving.I'm no fan of the Tories and May has been a disaster but if the EU think the withdrawal deal is fair why not trust them?
Conservative "remainers" keep voting for May's deal… including Boles, who has had to now leave the party despite backing the PM!
Who then stops no deal, and how?
At that point somebody had to ask the eu for more time (ge was always going.to be one they would agree to) or somebody has to call it off. That is where somebody has to get creative, although no deal is the default it has nowhere.near enough support.
If may brings mv4 then stuff can be amended to that.
At that point somebody had to ask the eu for more time (ge was always going.to be one they would agree to) or somebody has to call it off.
Who, how, when?
Seriously, if May's government falls just before we about to leave on no deal, who steps in and prevents it? And how? I'm not asking for a prediction of what will actually happen, just an outline of any possible solution if we get to that point.
If the remainers in parliament of all parties swallow the fact that we voted to leave rather than continuing to resist and calling for a re run (which I understand is difficult) then they could support May’s withdrawal deal BUT with amendments
For a people's vote to check the people who we keep invoking are happy to pass it.
@kelvin I'm not enough of an expert on the rules of parliament. Who in there is going to let no deal go through?
If in the event of a successful vote of no confidence a group could obtain a majority they could represent us. May could concede also.
continuing to resist and calling for a re run
It's not a ****ing re-run!
Who in there is going to let no deal go through?
It's going through. Now, who steps in if May's government fails, and how do they get the bill changed, and what do they offer the EU for an extension, and how and when do they get that agreed in parliament?
Who, how, when?
Theresa May. If she loses a no confidence vote, which now looks very likely, she will remain PM until a new govt is formed or it’s dissolved in 14 days. She’ll have no option but to ask for another extension.
The British establishment needs to arrive at critical mass before anything happens.
No deal vs revoke.
Via parliamentary vote or people's vote.
Bring it. (should have been done 2 years ago, but, well we all know the story).
Also I think there are more leave voters who want to be out as a matter of principle than the opposite.
And I think the reverse is true. But this boils down to what you think vs what I think, it's almost like we need to find out for sure, hmm...?
If the remainers in parliament of all parties swallow the fact that we voted to leave
1) "we" didn't vote to leave, half of the people who actually voted did so.
2) At the risk of repeating myself, "so what?"
Theresa May. If she loses a no confidence vote, which now looks very likely, she will remain PM until a new govt is formed or it’s dissolved in 14 days. She’ll have no option but to ask for another extension.
Why would she? Who will make her? What does she offer the EU for an extension, and how does she demonstrate she has the backing of parliament?
If we can have faith in anything, we can have faith that Labour and Conservatives are too shit scared to do anything unless they are forced like a rat into a corner to make a decision.
For a people’s vote to check the people who we keep invoking are happy to pass it.
mike if you mean a referendum on the withdrawal agreement YES or NO then that's a theoretical possibility but parliament has not legislated for that and none of the main parties promised one in their manifesto.And the no deal clock is ticking and the EU might take it out of parliament's hands....
Why would she? Who will make her? What does she offer the EU for an extension, and how does she demonstrate she has the backing of parliament?
Why? To avoid going down as the worst pm on record. Possibly because she knows the outcome of that and had an ounce of decency left. Possibly because enough MPs compel her to.
What does she offer the eu? To **** off and leave the process.
Backing of parliament? She doesn't need.to show that, what she shows is there is no support and we need to start again or call it off. To do either we need.to.consult the people so a long extension is required.
Those are all plausible and sensible reasons and ways forward. If you have decided no deal is inevitable then it won't change your mind. Others still see a way out.
@nick it becomes legislated by passing her wa with that as an ammendment. At this stage frankly who gives a **** what was in the manifesto - I shall be explaining to any party door knockers that a vote for them doesn't endorse the entire document from me.
It is current Labour policy and to be Frank if the tories cannot adapt to a changing situation they are the wrong people to be dealing with this. Why the fear of vote on the withdrawal act vs remain? Its the choice to be made.
And they've both been cornerd for some time now...
If you have decided no deal is inevitable then it won’t change your mind.
I haven't decided no deal is inevitable. MPs could have voted today to try and claim the power to prevent it. They may still wake up, ignore whips, and do so. But sacking the government does not result in no deal being prevented by magic. And by magic, I mean our current PM deciding to act for the nation and not for her party. No deal is the most popular option for Tory MPs and members.
Parliament as a whole needs to start putting in place measures to stop no deal… if they take it to the wire hoping that May does what they think is the right thing to do, they could be in for a nasty shock.
Why would she?
Because it it will be her duty in the plain best interests of the country. Also she’s already going to be branded the worst PM in history, you think she wants to also be blamed for singlehandedly crashing the economy?
1) “we” didn’t vote to leave, half of the people who actually voted did so.
2) At the risk of repeating myself, “so what?”
Really Cougar?? Have a word with yourself.
Maybe we should just invoke no deal,it didn't get a majority in parliament but so what?
But sacking the government does not result in no deal being prevented by magic.
No but if she loses a confidence vote there are then two options for her or a new PM to enact before the 11th:
1. Request a further extension to enable the new govt to propose a new solution.
2. If the eu refuses an extension, revoke or leave with no deal. If it gets to this I reckon it’ll be put to Parliament and they’ll vote to revoke. It’ll be a very last resort though.
@nick to also point out we have from a remain point of view compromised greatly by allowing this shit show to go on this long, we have allowed ministers to humiliate themselves, we have allowed the nationalist and populist to insult out closest neighbours and to undermine our standingin the world while trying badly to come up with a workable exit plan.
They have failed. What do I need to compromise on next?
Put the best they managed to the people and test the will of the people. That is where this started, that is where it will end. People cannot invoke democracy then run from it, people can not claim massive support but hide from testing that.
If it gets to this I reckon it’ll be put to Parliament and they’ll vote to revoke
You reckon? That's okay then. What if May decides otherwise, and lets no deal Brexit play out… plenty in her party will applaud her for that.
Put the best they managed to the people and test the will of the people.
That this is even seen as even slightly controversial now is depressing. Propaganda works.
2.
People cannot invoke democracy then run from it, people can not claim massive support but hide from testing that.
And the proper way of testing it democratically, is to have an election. Now remind me which party has been saying that for months?
How does that…? Oh forget it.
by allowing this shit show to go on this long,
The disaster capitalists have already made thier money, it's mission accomplished.
They could make more yet, but they are clean on profit.
We could always revoke and then redo Article 50 giving us another 2 years to play with.
Getting anyone in EU to return our calls after maybe a bit trickier.
How will parliament stop it? Given that they can’t even back an indicative vote suggesting that they should have the power to do so?
Vote of no confidence needs 320 votes to pass (with SF not taking their seats). Tories currently have 313 (312 now Bowles has gone) and the DUP 10, which makes 322. So, perhaps it's not beyond reach with a couple of defections from people like Ken Clarke.
However, given the outcome of a passed no confidence motion would be to delay (and possibly even revoke) brexit, it's quite likely that Hoey et al. could vote to save the government. Hoey's seat voted by a large majority to remain. I doubt they'll want her back, which could be impetus enough given the levels of self interest around at present.
Speaking as someone of limited political understanding nor will to try, I’m exsaperated at this shambles. Our self serving bunch of arseholes that call themselves our Government cannot after years of debates, countless times of asking come to a conclusion cannot put themselves to one side and work for the good of the country. Its not leadership, its selfishness.
If there were a GE I wouldn’t vote in protest. As much as it’d make no difference or perhaps would not by its own action help my own cause, who in thier right mind would make any effort to provide this bunch of selfish idiots a means to “lead” our country.
I can’t be the only one that has no faith in the government of politians per se after this debacle.
And the proper way of testing it democratically, is to have an election. Now remind me which party has been saying that for months?
except that it isn't - having a GE is too devisive as there are lots of people that just won't vote for a certain party no matter what their brexit stance.
Plus the number of people that will not ever vote for corbyn has again increased now as they don't trust him has just been boosted by his last-minute switch in policy, going completely against his last manifesto (and mandate as he would say).
dogbone
Subscriber
We could always revoke and then redo Article 50 giving us another 2 years to play with.
This is the one thing we can't do. It's in the legal advice on revoke.
@dazh a ge does not work for a single issue we tried that before. There is no appetite for a labour brexit which is what the leadership want.
@kelvin you have made up uour mind as to what outcome each future event will be, it's a bold claim with so many variables in play.
If there were a GE I wouldn’t vote in protest. As much as it’d make no difference or perhaps would not by its own action help my own cause, who in thier right mind would make any effort to provide this bunch of selfish idiots a means to “lead” our country.
Sounds like the reasons we are in this mess to start with. With such hight levels of dissatisfaction with the main 2 parties this could be a ge where more change is possible. To give up and flounce is the worst possible thing you could do. If you must protest with a vote use it to support somebody who might fight to change something.
it would have been so much better if politicians and everyone had accepted the ref result and gone straight in to planning for a 'no-deal', and then negotiated upwards from that situation to an improved situation.
And a50 should not have been triggered until a solution for the border had been found.
When the whole world is laughing at our parliament you really have to stand out to be the most ridiculous bell-end in town....
.....but Pendfold steps up
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1112832941502205953?s=19
it would have been so much better if politicians and everyone had accepted the ref result and gone straight in to planning for a ‘no-deal’
But no deal wasn’t what was promised with Brexit, it’s was a super deal, money for the NHS and lots of other mega trade deals with the rest of the world.
But no deal wasn’t what was promised with Brexit, it’s was a super deal, money for the NHS and lots of other mega trade deals with the rest of the world.
and what point are you making - that's got nothing to do with an EU deal, has it?
if the 'no-deal' baseline had been set in the first place then negotiating trade deals to be better than that baseline could have then happened, instead of wasting all this time countering remoaning losers like yourself...
Ah, the old lie, that it all would've been fine if we'd all just gotten behind it.
How would that have made a difference to the outcome?
instead of wasting all this time countering remoaning losers like yourself…
🙂 I’m typing this from my holiday apartment in the Alps which has shot up in Sterling value since the vote.
So if we'd all just started with lower expectations we wouldn't be so disappointed
Okay got it now.
and what point are you making – that’s got nothing to do with an EU deal, has it?
Exactly, but that is what won the vote
if the ‘no-deal’ baseline had been set in the first place then negotiating trade deals to be better than that baseline could have then happened
Apart from it doesn't work like that, at all.
So basically, start as low as possible and then a trade deal with the Faroe Islands would have been the best thing ever!
I like your logic Turnerguy. 😂😂
Really Cougar?? Have a word with yourself.
Care to elaborate on what you mean?
Maybe we should just invoke no deal,it didn’t get a majority in parliament but so what?
The difference is that parliament is sovereign, not the electorate.
if the ‘no-deal’ baseline had been set in the first place then negotiating trade deals to be better than that baseline could have then happened, instead of wasting all this time countering remoaning losers like yourself…
Far as I can tell, there has been no countering of anything outside of the Internet and even that has been "we won you lost shut up and get on with it two world wars and one world cup doo dah project fear something sovereignty something why do you hate democracy?" and that doesn't take a great deal of time. If there's one thing the leave contingent has been really, really good at over the last couple of years it's not countering anything but rather ignoring it instead.
You broke it, you fix it, don't you %^&*ing dare try and pin this cluster**** on us now. It's not like you weren't warned.
if the ‘no-deal’ baseline had been set in the first place
Plus, y'know, it was.
2016: "if we crash out, we're proper*ed" - "project fear!"
2019: "if we crash out, we're proper*ed" - "wow, if only someone had said this three years ago!"
I still can't see why the option with the most votes doesn't win.
May didn't get a majority but she won the election.
a ge does not work for a single issue we tried that before. There is no appetite for a labour brexit which is what the leadership want.
But it shouldn’t be a single issue election. Brexit is the symptom of a much deeper problem, and there’s only one party which seems to understand that.
i’m not sure there’s much evidence that people don’t want a ‘labour brexit’. Clearly there is some appetite because the remain at all costs parties are not exactly setting the world alight are they? The only way to test it though is via an election.
But it shouldn’t be a single issue election. Brexit is the symptom of a much deeper problem, and there’s only one party which seems to understand that.
It is but it is a single issue that needs resolving right now. A GE and we go for another 2 years to work out we still can't agree.
i’m not sure there’s much evidence that people don’t want a ‘labour brexit’. Clearly there is some appetite because the remain at all costs parties are not exactly setting the world alight are they?
Yep, the old one of 80% voted for this.... anecdotally I think you have seen enough people who did not support brexit but voted for one of the parties to try and get something out of this. As I've said before probably more didn't vote Lib Dem because of tuition fees not anything to do with brexit.
37% of the electorate voted for Bexit
36% voted for remain
The Majority of MP's did not want brexit
We have a deal to vote on, it was the product of 2 years insulting out neighbours.
Kryton57:
If there were a GE I wouldn’t vote in protest. As much as it’d make no difference or perhaps would not by its own action help my own cause, who in thier right mind would make any effort to provide this bunch of selfish idiots a means to “lead” our country.
If there is a GE, and you really can not find *any* of the candidates you could support (even one with no hope of winning) then please go along anyway and spoil your vote.
A vote for a minority candidate may avoid them losing their deposit, or encourage them to keep campaigning for whatever issue they (and maybe you) care deeply about, even if not elected.
A vote for a minority candidate helps build support for electoral reform - yes it’s unlikely we’ll ever ditch FPTP, but the smaller share the reds & blues get the more chance of change.
A spoiled vote still counts for turnout, and helps the whole system give a better reflection of the public will: imagine what millions of spoiled ballots would do to ‘legitimacy’ of the result. ‘None of the above, since you’re all ****!’ from millions of people?
Please do vote in some way, every tine you can. For those you support, for no-one at all if you must. But please do vote.
Most people didn't vote lib dem because in most constituencies its a wasted vote
It is but it is a single issue that needs resolving right now
If the last 3 years have proven anything, it’s that this issue is so complex and difficult that an immediate solution is impossible. It’s going to take a lot longer to resolve, an entire parliament at least I would suggest. The starting point can only be an election because we have no ther mechanism available.
The starting point can only be an election because we have no ther mechanism available.
Bull Shit!! We have other mechanisms, one is staring you in the face, it got the most votes last night, it was offered several times as a way out to May, can you remember what that is? Unless of course you reject the idea that people can change their minds.
Mays deal is the best available and far better than I thought possible given Mays red lines
IMO the best and obvious solution is a referendum on Mays deal v remain. Everyone knows no deal is an utter disaster in the making ( apart from the terminally deluded) The only reason this is being blocked is the fundamentalist brexshitters know they would lose a second referendum and a few labour folk are scared of racists in their constituencies or are terminally deluded like Hoey
Don’t forget that the bnp won a seat by less than 20 votes. Every vote matters .
.
you think she wants to also be blamed for singlehandedly crashing the economy?
Shits 'n' giggles?
Most people didn’t vote lib dem because in most constituencies its a wasted vote
Just imagine 48% voting LibDem.
The difference is that parliament is sovereign, not the electorate.
But, but DEMOCRACY, WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Or something.
The disaster capitalists have already made thier money, it’s mission accomplished.
Yes they would probably be OK with letting this one go and look forward to the next way of destabilizing the economy.
I'm with the on his last two posts.
There is no appetite for a labour brexit which is what the leadership want.
but what is a labour brexit - they keep changing their tune - their stance now is not what was in their manifesto. corbyn has a serious issue with voter trust and it has just got worse with his recent switch.
If there is a GE it is not going to stop a hard bexit
Bull Shit!! We have other mechanisms, one is staring you in the face, it got the most votes last night, it was offered several times as a way out to May, can you remember what that is?
As Ken Clark says it's alright adding a PV without the direction attached to it. You do well. The minute you have a PV coupled with the options it becomes less clear. Red herring.
@sockpuppet - fair point and understood, thanks. Last time around I voted for the Green Party as they promised most of what I wanted locally.
Upon reflection if there is a GE, I shall review the options again and not abstain.
Ah, the old lie, that it all would’ve been fine if we’d all just gotten behind it.How would that have made a difference to the outcome?
how do you know it is a lie - how do you know it wouldn't have made a difference ?
If we had started assuming worst case no-deal we would then know the areas of most pain to try and negotiate up from, and so would everyone else. We would also have had time to do it.