Kelvin – can you share a link?
No. Radio.
Will look for the Radio4 one when it's in iPlayer later, and post a link if I can.
You need to have some respect FFS! Call people wrong & disagree but dont call people liars.
Respect is earned not demanded.
I didn't call anyone a liar, you're making up stuff that I didn't say. (Ie, lying, somewhat ironically.)
"Remoaner bully boys?" That's hilarious. You should have a read of some of the comments on leaver Facebook pages sometime if you want to see some bully boys in action. It's not remainers who are telling everyone who disagrees with them to "shut up and get on with it" or slinging around death threats.
It’s not remainers who are telling everyone who disagrees with them to “shut up and get on with it” or slinging around death threats.
Or indeed actually killing people.
Alistair Campbell’s quote comes to mind about the last march. “Anything with that much support is on the right side of history”.
He thought the same about the Iraq war protest.
I didn’t call anyone a liar, you’re making up stuff
😉
And today, piemonster learns an important lesson about tenses. (-:
Call people wrong & disagree but dont call people liars.
Don’t call them liars? Even after they have lied? The whole campaign & subsequent ‘negotiations’ have been typified by lies.
As for...
let the politicians clear up their own mess
It isn’t just their mess: we’re all being imperilled by this. And they show no sign of clearing it up.
Cougar said I lied about how I voted in the ref and he's called Dazh either daft or disingenuous. Its not OK. If someone has lied of course call them a liar but thats not what I'm talking about here.
Of course I am aware of Brexit bully boys- try not to be the mirror of them peeps.
Even in Switzerland which does have a form of direct democracy, their parliament is still sovereign and can overrule referendum results if they don’t meet the criteria or otherwise think it’s a really bad idea.
As indeed is ours - even if we are in the EU. Amazing really isn't it?
I totally agree referendums are not compatible with our democracy
Well they are providing they are taken for what they are - opinion polls.
If we do end up staying in the EU, I'm going to become and MEP.
For accusations of bullying look no further than our PM, she has constantly tried to take legitimate options off the table, she has withheld documents from parliament, she has been complicit in covering up that stuff didn't exist.
She spent the last few months literally trying to bully parliament by fixing the questions.
Then her little outburst last night.
For many of us it's important that we acknowledge the options available to the UK at the moment
As it stands these are/include
May's Deal + Extension
No Deal with No Extension
Revoke A50 & Remain
Vote for some kind of change and agree longer extension with the EU to facilitate that (Either change of government or referendum)
Trying to pretend any of these options doesn't exist is stupid and counter productive.
And today, piemonster learns an important lesson about tenses. (-:
To be fair, I meant to type something about irony but couldn’t be arsed.
Cougar said I lied about how I voted in the ref
I believe what I actually said was "I don't think I believe you" but I'd have to go back and check and I'm not sure as I care sufficiently to bother.
he’s called Dazh either daft or disingenuous
Neither of which are synonyms for "liar."
And in any case, I didn't call him either of those things either. The first six words of the sentence you've lifted that from were very important, read them again.
It'd be highly irregular for me to call someone a liar. I might've done many months ago so out of frustration in the past with our serial fabricator who generated sufficient nonsense to earn him his own hashtag, I don't remember now, but it's certainly not a term I'd generally throw around lightly. Not least because I rarely have sufficient courage of my convictions to be comfortable with making such an accusation.
What is the point of posting "I dont think I believe you" over how I voted. What was your point in typing that post? Its out of order and you know it- just apologise.
What are the synonyms of disingenuous?
I agree with Cougar - an'adult' parliment ought to be able go agaisnt a referendum result if it is obviously impossible or harmful to achieve. Who was it that said 'with great power comes great responsibility?' 😉
All this 'will of the people' stuff, or blaming the MPs, is just ducking responsibility. Its also very lazy.
What is the point of posting “I dont think I believe you”
Because I thought I didn't believe you?
just apologise.
Convince me that I was wrong and I shall, unreservedly, with a spring in my step and joy in my heart.
What are the synonyms of disingenuous?
Insincere? Certainly in the context I intended it, anyway.
I believe what I actually said was “I don’t think I believe you”
If this is said about a persons statement, what is it other than saying "I don't belive your telling the truth" I.E. lying !! I've been repeatedly told by some posters that they don't belive I voted remain, just because I don't conform do their ideal of a remain voter.
If you don't know what words mean then don't use them.
Synonyms of disingenuous:
dishonest, deceitful, underhand, underhanded, duplicitous, double-dealing, two-faced, dissembling, insincere, false, lying, untruthful, mendacious
I think I believe you
I don't think I believe you
I think you are lying
I don't think you are lying
Watching the eU politicians on bbc news, there isn’t much love for TM!! To paraphrase, she is a rubbish negotiator, constantly changes her mind, and has no friends!
The deputy E.U. leader stated if the deal fails we need a new leader 😳
If you don’t know what words mean then don’t use them.
I'm well aware of what words mean, I'm not the one who had to Google it. I even clarified what I meant just now just in case you'd taken it the wrong way.
If I said you were crowing about something would we expect you to be running around waving a raven about?
I love how people are getting their knickers in a twist about it being sugeested that the may be setting out to deceive.
The correct answer when accused of lying/someone doesn't believe you, if you know yourself to be truthful is "the great thing about the truth is that it doesn't care what you think"
Getting wound up? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Quick point on this issue of whether the referendum was legitimate/binding etc. You're all right when you point out the flaws. It was only advisory, the leave campaign was based on lies (some on remain too, but nowhere near as many), campaign fraud and dark money funding the leave campaign etc. But, all that is largely irrelevant as long as most of the people who voted believe it was legitimate. Confidence in the process and the end result is the primary consideration, and apart from a small and very vocal minority, no one is seriously disputing that on the whole the referendum was executed fairly and the result was clear.
The voting public may not understand the pros/cons and detailed whys and wherefores of the European Union, but they do understand the simple concept of holding a vote and respecting the result. As I've said many times, confidence in the democratic process is in my opinion much more important than our membership of the European Union.
PS. Still not seeing the magic formula that you all seem to know that the labour party should have followed to stop brexit. Clearly I should have gone for a longer ride 🙂
If this is said about a persons statement, what is it other than saying “I don’t belive your telling the truth” I.E. lying !!
I appreciate we're in an era where opinion and fact are somewhat muddied, but compare and contrast:
"I don't believe you."
"I don't think I believe you."
There is a perhaps subtle but very important difference.
some on remain too, but nowhere near as many
Name one.
all that is largely irrelevant
I agree with you here. Whataboutery regarding a referendum three years ago now is, well, whataboutery. It's done and dusted for better or worse, we can't change it and still harping on about it* does no-one on either side any favours.
(* - not an actual harp, in case anyone is confused.)
As I’ve said many times, confidence in the democratic process is in my opinion much more important than our membership of the European Union.
and I assume you have not been watching any of what has been going on in Parliament where the Government was found in contempt
On 4 December 2018, the UK Government was found in contempt of Parliament for the first time in history[20] on a motion passed by MPs by 311 to 293 votes.[21] The vote was triggered by the government failing to lay before Parliament any legal advice on the proposed withdrawal agreement on the terms of the UK’s departure from the European Union, after a humble address for a return was unanimously agreed to by the House of Commons on 13 November. The government has now agreed to publish the full legal advice [20] for Brexit that was given to the Prime Minister by the Attorney General during negotiations with the European Union.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY!
Can you actually call the process of pushing this deal democratic?
Trying to bully parliament with threats and contortions is not democratic, it's not in the spirit of the rules and not what the UK should be doing.
confidence in the democratic process is in my opinion much more important than our membership of the European Union.
In order to have confidence in something, one must first understand that something, n'est-ce pas?
I have little confidence in the democratic process currently either, but that has jeff all to do with the referendum and everything to do with May's concerted efforts to disrupt it and seize power at every turn since then.
Anyway, this is getting so silly now that Graham Chapman will be along in a minute so I'm going to go make food. Enjoy your evening folks.
Ah the good old replacing a word in a sentence with a synonym of that word to justify some faux outrage.
Tragic.
Can you actually call the process of pushing this deal democratic?
Of course not. What May is doing in parliament is an outrage and she should be slung out asap. That's only going to happen though if tory MPs put country before party. My points about respecting democracy are solely about the referendum result and not about the parliamentary machinations we've had since. The public will simply not understand or agree if the result of the referendum is not executed as was promised. If that happens we're in new and completely unknown and unpredictable territory with some extremely dangerous possibilities ahead*.
*tbh I think the genie's already out of the bottle whatever happens now so think there's little to be lost with a 2nd vote. Not going to happen though cos there's no majority for one. I reckon there's a higher chance of a new election as a result of a no confidence vote. The likes of Grieve et al won't be able to justify supporting May if the result is a no deal exit.
the referendum result and not about the parliamentary machinations we’ve had since. The public will simply not understand or agree if the result of the referendum is not executed as was promised. If that happens we’re in new and completely unknown and unpredictable territory with some extremely dangerous possibilities ahead*.
What is the basis for your assertion on that? I'm guessing it's just a feeling or a guess.
Nearly two-thirds of people would vote to remain in the EU rather than for Theresa May’s deal if a referendum offering those options were called, a snap poll by YouGov has found.
Sixty-one per cent of the population would vote to remain while 39 per cent would opt for the existing deal,
However, if people were asked in a public vote whether they would prefer to remain in the EU or leave with no deal in place, Remain would still win, though by the smaller margin of 57-43 per cent.
What is the basis for your assertion on that?
The main problem with a 2nd vote is not that it won't be accepted by the public, it probably will, and there's a high chance remain will win (although not a foregone conclusion), the problem is that it will erode confidence in the democratic system. As I said earlier, we got into this mess because huge numbers of people feel marginalised, ignored, and forgotten about. A 2nd vote, or even worse a unilateral revocation will repeat and amplify those problems.
I think it will boil down to a vote on May's 3rd attempt if it's allowed and that will fail.
The outcome will be the same, it will eventually come down to no deal vs revoke article 50..
Which is why it would be important to bring those people along, your concern for them should also register that they will be some of those ****ed the hardest by Brexit when it hits. They will be the ones out of work, losing homes and all that goes with it.
the problem is that it will erode confidence in the democratic system.
The damage has been done. This is about making a better future for people not blindly doing something monumentally stupid that seems to be getting more and more opposition every day.
the problem is that it will erode confidence in the democratic system
Find me someone who actually has confidence in it now? Even before this fiasco?
A revocation will be ignoring all those who voted leave. That's why it has to be a second ref.
In order to have confidence in something, one must first understand that something
No, not at all. People have blind faith all the time - in fact, it's probably the most common position.
The damage has been done. This is about making a better future for people not blindly doing something monumentally stupid that seems to be getting more and more opposition every day.
I agree, hence why I wouldn't be opposed to a second vote. Being an arch-remainer (despite what some people think) I'd also be celebrating a revocation, but I'm not going to pretend it will solve the problem or address it. It'll just kick it down the road for a bit. The repercussions of the last 3 years will be felt for decades irrespective of how it turns out. The ideal scenario is remain, and then the election of a labour govt. I don't see much hope of that though.
Leaving because 'will of the people' isn't going to fix the issues either. Yet you seem to keep banging that drum.
an’adult’ parliment ought to be able go agaisnt a referendum result if it is obviously impossible or harmful to achieve.
Yes. It should. But May basically sidelined Parliament until the last few months.
My points about respecting democracy are solely about the referendum result
I'm not going to go into this again because I've done it to death, but do you disagree with anything I've said?
The public will simply not understand or agree if the result of the referendum is not executed as was promised.
So what? By and large they've neither understood nor agreed with anything for years. It will hardly be the first time a government has welched on a manifesto pledge, the only people who are actually going to throw their toys out of the pram are the gammons. I'd wager the vast majority of 'normal' people, leave or remain, just want it done with so they can get on with their lives. Right now it's only the angry ones - on both sides - who still give a toss, I doubt we're representative of the electorate.
the problem is that it will erode confidence in the democratic system.
Hate to break it to you, but that ship sailed a good while ago.
A revocation will be ignoring all those who voted leave.
And what about all those who voted remain? We've been roundly ignored since the referendum and no-one seems to give two shits about that.
Plus as I've said repeatedly, they haven't been ignored. We've spent three years with the government listening to no-one else but them. Whatever criticism they could level at the process, and they are legion, "we've been ignored" is surely not one of them.
ctk
Member
Likely out. Agree with gordimhor above. CAP boils my piss too.
Of course the worry is that even if we come out the Tories will sign us up for TTIP.
Posted 3 years ago
and what this boils down to is the only reasons we are getting for leave is about a bloody opinion poll and respecting idiots who are trying to harm the country delivering a deal they don't even want.
No mention as to how any of this fixes the country just how it might not be as bad as predicted.
As I’ve said many times, confidence in the democratic process is in my opinion much more important than our membership of the European Union.
Confidence in the democratic process comes from confidence that those carrying out the process are doing the right thing. That means putting country before party. This country and its citizens are best served by remaining in the EU. Yes the referendum demonstrated that there are a lot of people with misgivings (and I would add misunderstandings) regarding the EU and the relationship between it and member states' governments. These issues need attention across the whole of Europe. Tearing up the union is foolish and serves to diminish the influence of both Europe and its individual member states.
It would appear relations between the PM and her chief whip are, erm, "strained".
no one is seriously disputing that on the whole the referendum was executed fairly and the result was clear.
I would say a close to 50/50% vote split is anything but clear, its is surely the definition of a ambiguous result in a yes / no vote?
The repercussions of the last 3 years will be felt for decades irrespective of how it turns out. The ideal scenario is remain, and then the election of a labour govt. I don’t see much hope of that though.
Half right - the ideal outcome is revocation / remain and then a complete total overhaul of the entire party political system, FPTP voting etc and the election (or appointment) of a cross-party centre ground Government.
And it would be nice if JRM, Farage, Gove, Johnson et al could all be found guilty of treason and locked up in the tower for a bit too.
Confidence in the democratic process comes from confidence that those carrying out the process are doing the right thing.
Don't disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to 'do the right thing' and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands. We ignore it at our peril.
I would say a close to 50/50% vote split is anything but clear, its is surely the definition of a ambiguous result in a yes / no vote?
Nice bit of revisionism there. Normally people wait a few decades before trying to change history 🙂
At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide.
Utter utter BS, seriously it's as if the kool aid has been flowing strong there!!
If you think it's such a simple process that we vote leave and then we leave then you are mad!!
You are also missing the tide of public opinion that is moving away from leave, certainly doesn't want No Deal or Mays deal.
This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands. We ignore it at our peril.
Where exactly is that written down?
Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands. We ignore it at our peril.
What if they didn’t agree to hold the referendum in the first place? Do they have to stand down?
What if ‘the public’ decided they wanted internment without trial or the death penalty?
I know, I know, straw men and all that, but there IS a line.
Yes, and the people having been asked to make a decision on the first question should logically then have to make decisions on the next decision and the next one, on the particular topic at least. Asking for public opinion at the start then subsequently ignoring it makes little sense.
Howevrer, if you consider that the original question was not an instruction, then it changes. Government could then have worked from that position. But people expected A50 to be enacted immediately, so the government felt bound to do it by public opinion.
Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands.
Clearly you don't understand the process of representative democracy.
May ius in even more trouble. Loosing the confidence of the chief whip puts her in a really bad place politically. I think she might well lose a vote of confidence in the government now
There are reports around of an increasingly strained relationship between the prime minister and her chief whip, Julian Smith. According to ITV News’ Paul Brand, Smith “has been openly admitting today that he found last night’s statement in Downing Street ‘appalling’.
ITV quote Smith as telling a fellow MP the prime minister “just won’t listen” to him.
Firstly
Ah the good old replacing a word in a sentence with a synonym of that word to justify some faux outrage.
Tragic.
Cougar brought synonyms up not me, I dont think its OK that Cougar questions my honesty- no faux outrage here.
“I don’t believe you.”
“I don’t think I believe you.”There is a perhaps subtle but very important difference.
I dont think you know what subtle means.
The correct answer when accused of lying/someone doesn’t believe you, if you know yourself to be truthful is “the great thing about the truth is that it doesn’t care what you think”
Getting wound up? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Yes in hindsight. And yes this lady doth protest too much (but just to be clear not in the way you mean it ;~) I am allowed to have a different opinion, I dont mind being challenged on that opinion but accusing me of lying for no good reason is out of order. I let it lie but seeing Cougar do a very similar thing to Dazh made me call him out on it again.
Asking for public opinion at the start then subsequently ignoring it makes little sense.
I've already said a 2nd vote wouldn't be the worst outcome, but it can only happen if there is both a majority in parliament, and approval from the public. The former doesn't exist, and we have no idea on the latter, which is why an election is required.
Howevrer, if you consider that the original question was not an instruction, then it changes.
Back to the 'but it was only advisory' argument. It's irrelevant as long as the public believed it was an instruction, and they clearly did, and still do.
not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide.
Stridently stayed though that might be, it is also codswallop.
With that line of argument you are going to, again, end up backing yourself into one of those corners that inevitably await anyone arguing for Brexit being allowed to go ahead.
And FWIW, I strongly believe that the economic cataclysm that anything but the softest of Brexits will cause will do infinitely more damage to our ‘democracy’ than ignoring an advisory referendum ‘won’ narrowly by a pack of lies. The political nutcases want a No Deal for precisely this reason. Stopping Brexit will do political damage, no doubt, but the long term agony that going ahead will cause will lead us to a much, much darker place, and these political exploiters know it.
Jesus wept Educator get a life! CAP boils my piss but the EU are gradually reforming it for the better. Monbiot voted remain despite hating CAP so did I.
It’s irrelevant as long as the public believed it was an instruction, and they clearly did, and still do.
Fundamentally ‘no’.
I think she might well lose a vote of confidence in the government now
Indeed. She's burnt the bridges with the people who for some utterly bizarre reason were keeping her in post. The tory remainers don't have any option now if a new no confidence vote is called by Corbyn, as it surely will be if her MV3 is defeated or no deal looks likely.
A second referendum stops all the anti democratic nonsense dead as it is then clearly the will of the people.
Looks like the E.U. taking control of Mays Agenda. Unconditional extension until 12 April, and 22 May if WA agreed.
wonder where the adults are?
A second referendum stops all the anti democratic nonsense dead as it is then clearly the will of the people.
Unless you deal with the fraud surrounding the first ref, what is the point?
Only if the question is the same Remain vs Leave.
If its Remain vs TM's universely derided deal then one side has been nobbled.
Only if the question is the same Remain vs Leave.
If its Remain vs TM’s universely derided deal then one side has been nobbled.
is that no deal or another fantasy leave?
Put one choice down and the other is remain. Again the current polling shows no leave option carries a majority. Remain does.
The only way you get a different deal is with a long extension and a political change.
Also if leave has been nobbled it's been done by the ERG, DUP and the mad leavers.
ctk
Member
Only if the question is the same Remain vs Leave.
Yeah, because it's not like that's literally the reason that everything's fallen apart, is it. You can't just lump all the leave options, real and made up, together and claim votes for any as votes for all. Otherwise we could just end up in the same mess where a majority want to leave but only a minority will agree with any of the options
The petition is over 1,900,000 - that's an incredible amount in one day.
Started with about 100,000 this a.m. I think.
EDIT: over 2 million now
it was about 300,000 this morning but it's still incredible going. Hoping it makes 2M by midnight
The numbers seem to be increasing more quickly than earlier, like it’s catching up on backlogged data
I think it is- it took half the day for me to get the email confirmation.
Yup. 1.5 million at tea time. Half a million since, in just a few hours. Wow.
150 000 on the petition when I signed late last night - well over a million and a half in 24 hours
no one is seriously disputing that on the whole the referendum was executed fairly and the result was clear.
Oh, I missed this. It's demonstrably untrue as I'd dispute both of those statements.
At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands.
This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that you've just invented.
Unless of course you'd care to point me at the relevant English law which states that in the event of an advisory referendum parliament then immediately cedes sovereignty to the proletariat, in which case I'm happy to be proven wrong. Though I rather thought that parliamentary sovereignty was something of a tenet amongst leave voters. Isn't that one of the things they keep telling us they knew what they were voting for?
I dont think you know what subtle means.
Oh, wait, I know the answer to this one now. You're calling me a liar, right?
This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands.
I don't believe this disingenuous nonsense you are spouting. Sorry.
well over a million and a half in 24 hours
and getting faster all the time. looks like numbers are going up almost 3 times as fast as they were this morning. I'm wondering what it could reach now
edit: and even faster now. it's quite mad. straight through 2M
When and where will it end?
At last May manages to unite both the country and the Commons
"It's A Shit Show": Likelihood Of UK Crashing Out Of EU Next Week Is Higher Than It Has Ever Been
yes pants on fire
over 2 million now!