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'kin hell stefmecdef thats a grim vision of what lies ahead, what kind of madman is he, that he wants it to happen?
I'm willing to bet that he doesn't see that as actually happening to HIM, just to, you know, other people.
Corbyn was absolutely on the money yesterday when he pointed out that half the party want the foreign secretary sacked, and the other half want the chancellor sacked.
Government Brexit policy, such as it is, seems to change by the minute depending which group the floundering hostage of a PM presently feels the most threatened by
I'd imagine that viewed from the continent, negotiating at the moment with this shower is a pretty pointless exercise, as this farcical house of cards must be due to implode any second. In the meantime, we're all just in this weird, rudderless limbo
Surely even someone as cold and emotionally stunted as the Maybot must realise that this is all now totally futile? That holding on to 'power' purely for the sake of it, while actually rendering yourself utterly powerless, and at the mercy of external forces, is now doing potentially enormous damage to this country.
How exactly can we achieve that its right up there with wishing the tide did not come in.The EU wants us to end up worse off, we need to make sure that doesn't happen.
We were always going to be worse off and they were always going to ensure it as their is no point being in the club if you can leave, not pay and still be at the same point - why would anyone stay?
No amount of action or effort by anyone , of any party or political persuasion, is going to prevent that. We need to aim to make us the least worst off we can possibly be.
the only way to achieve that is to take the pills the Eu throw at us agree and then get a trade deal . We wont be getting it by threatening to be a low tax regime on their border and I am not sure we all want to , myself included, accept ALL of their pills.
your version of this was to ignore their stated views. I suggest you work on yourself rather than lecture us on our comprehension. Their position is the one they keep restating endlessly that you reject as they"know this ". They are setting criteria we need to meet they are not negotiating. once we accept this we can decide what to do. I am not sure how many times we need to move and them not for you to grasp this or for others for that matter but this is not a negotiation. In the house analogy we need to agree to buy the house for a price then negotiate the fittings where as we want to still be haggling over the price whilst discussing the fittings. the EU has and will continue to reject this view because its not a negotiation on their lines in the sand. I am not overly optimistic it will be over trade either but this is meet our criteria then we can talk. We have not met them so they wont talk. Its at best a stand of or possibly even them "bullying" us if you like but it was always going to be this as we want access t them and they will lose us if they have to us as we pay the higher price.We need to understand their position and protect ours
The "bring back the birch brigade" of the hard Tory right absolutely loves the idea of Brexit as a means of punishing everyone who isn't already rich, or a member of the Conservative party because they want to destroy our economy in order to rebuild it, sans NHS and with massively reduced public spending.
These people care little for the human cost.
PJM1974 has it nailed, this is the opportunity of a lifetime if you are in the correct socio economic area. Trouble is most people won't be.
This is the Miners Stike "lesson" for those who voted for and against (it makes no odds) Brexit.
It is a blatant effort to reset the position of the working poor in the UK and turn tgem back into a labouring class - if they think they had a hard time prior to Brexit it's going to be a shock.
I thought I was reading a new [i]Yes minister[/i] script here...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/09/theresa-may-stumbles-brexit-statement?CMP=fb_gu
that article brilliantly sums up the Tories internal combustion
That piece by North paints Brexit for what it has become: a cult for whom the end must be reached whatever the consequences. I follow him on twitter for what I thought was a reasonable enough voice pro-Brexit unlike cultists here and the quitlings they’re sucking in. But he’s shown himself to be an ideologue with a sociopathic disregard for those who’ll suffer in an economic downturn.
While I am positively overjoyed at the thought of the Conservative Party self-immolating and destroying itself, nature abhors a vacuum especially in politics.
Things will get very, very messy. One thing that you can be sure of is that those who've made controversial and unwelcome decisions won't be penalised in any way, if they've voted out of office then they stand to live pretty well on their pension pot and special MP redundancy packages. They'll end up in the private sector or the public speaking circuit.
I can't help thinking that Brexit would go far better for the ordinary person if the success or failure of it is directly linked to our soon to be ex-MPs future earnings. And by directly linked, I mean if more stuff is privatised or our mean GDP falls then our swashbuckling Brexiteers should pick up the tab themselves.
oldmanmtb - absolutely bang on.
One thing they seem to have forgotten though, with their monumental arrogance and selective memory, is that though they eventually 'won' the miner's strike, it was touch and go for a long time.
This time they're planning to pretty much end the welfare state, privatise the NHS, slash and burn working conditions, wage rates and environmental protections in order to fund huge tax cuts for the rich, and further increase already massive inequality
All while promising the opposite (£350 million a week extra for the NHS anyone?)
If they think that such a huge chunk of the countries population is going to just accept that con-trick, and take that lying down, I think they may be in for a bit of wake up call that'll make the miner's strike look like a scuffle in a pub car park. And the police force, having been treated like the rest of the public sector (with contempt) will be in no mood to form the militia they were for Fatcha
Forget Yes Minister. This thread is becoming Python-esque!
This is interesting for anyone wondering how it came to this, 20 years of misleasding anti EU propaganda by the UK press debunked one by one:
[url= http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ ]http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/[/url]
Forget Yes Minister. This thread is becoming Python-esque!
Correct. Just when we think the Black Night / Jamby are finally cottoning on to reality, you ramp up the absurdity a notch or three.
THM, you still haven't explained how you think we can avoid ending up worse off as a result of brexit.
(Even the obvious route of abandoning brexit will leave us worse off that we were before embarking on this crazy act of self-harm)
For good reason, I believe that Brexshit will make us worse off. But that is my view and it doesn't matter because it's the minority view. Brexshit is going to happen - that is the will of the majority of voters. So the priority is simply to minimise the damage and protect our interests to the best we can. In my direct sphere of influence, we are reasonably well prepared at least structurally but we do not know what the full economic impact will be. But at the wider level, I think the constant remoaning and division merely makes the likelihood of worst case scenarios coming true more likely. Hence, I believe that it is important for unity - to the extent that it is possible - to be used to strengthen our negotiating position. The current climate merely weakens us.
The first step is to recognise what the EU is doing - not hard, since there is precedent - and stand up to their games. If this means threatening a hard Brexsit then so be it. Both sides are losers here unless (or even if) they get around the table and iron out the terms under which we are going to trade with each other. That is priority #1 and all other things stem from that, not the other ways round as the EU is trying to make us believe.
So bizarrely, I am happy/relaxed to hear May talk of preparing for a hard on. The team need to look their counter parties with that weapon firmly in view! Only then will we move on, or so it seems at the moment.
We shall see.....
I am happy/relaxed to hear May talk of preparing for a hard on.
To hear of May preparing for a hard on is not something I find relaxing!
since there is precedent
No other country has ever quit the union. No precedent.
In your financial microcosme, THM.That is priority #1
In the real world the EU is more worried about the fate of the Irish, the fate of EU citizens in the UK, and getting the bills paid.
But at the wider level, I think the constant remoaning and division merely makes the likelihood of worst case scenarios coming true more likely
Enemies of the people!!
Let's all show our solidarity with The Breshitters by going out tonight and vandalising a Polish community centre - that'll show those Brussels Bureaucrats that we are not to be messed with!
There is clear precedent in how the EU approach negotiations. You simply chose to ignored this and swallow their spin and even make it sound vaguely plausible. You are not alone. That is one of the problems.
Kilo. My iPhone autocorrect was too good to change! The image is eye watering I accept.
Edukator - Reformed Troll
No other country has ever quit the union. No precedent.
THM is talking about Greece
whats interesting is that the UK gov doesnt seem to have learnt anything from that
just like Greece, Davis has wasted months and months trying to get round the EUs scheduling that he signed up to (In greeces case wanted debt relief 1st)
and TSpiras' government sold an impossible dream that they could BS the EU into cake & eat it settlement, continually telling the domestic press that they would be able to make it work, without admitting that reality would be a messy compromise much to the frustration of the EU (sounds rather familiar)
Varoufakis advised just taking an off the shelf Norway/Swiss option until we could work out something better, May has dissmissed this repeatedly, again boxing us in with her own rhetoric
Varoufakis also came up with his camera's on touritsts plan to stop tax dodging, which sounds a lot like the Tories magic NI border plans
Varoufakis also publically attacked the EU during the talks, pissing them off even more
In the end the end they just ignored him and went to Tspiras to deal
Varoufakis now makes a living selling books and writing articles about how it was the EU that made the negotiations go south and definitely not his fault
Varoufakis now makes a living selling books and writing articles about how it was the EU that made the negotiations go south and definitely not his fault
However, Varoufakis has been proved right about more or less everything, including the EU's anti-democratic antics (talking behind the scenes with opposition leaders), economic incompetence (strangling the Greek economy) and general lack of accountability (Eurogroup shenanigans).
thm is correct to say that they are playing the same tune again, but the answer is not (IMO) to all fall into line behind Boris and Rees-Mogg and pretend that Brexit is Beautiful.
to hear of May preparing for a hard on is not something I find relaxing!
hear hear.
TM very weak and wobbly on LBC just now.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]For good reason, I believe that Brexshit will make us worse off. But that is my view and it doesn't matter because it's the minority view.
Wrong. Even if you believe there is no shift from 52/48, plenty of leave supporters think it will make us worse off, ranging from Peter North up there, to those with far less of an understanding who think it's worth it to keep foreigners out.
The first step is to recognise what the EU is doing - not hard, since there is precedent - and stand up to their games.
Yeah, we should stand up to their insistence the a solution be found to the Irish border problem - that's clearly just a game, and we know there's a solution involving faeries.
but the answer is not (IMO) to all fall into line behind Boris and Rees-Mogg and pretend that Brexit is Beautiful.
That's my point, Varoufakis was elected on a populist mandate to deliver the impossible, by the time he realised it wasn't going to happen it was too late, brexies seem to be repeating same mistakes
I think the constant remoaning and division merely makes the likelihood of worst case scenarios coming true more likely
Why? In what way does complaining about the incompetence of the govt hinder them in coming up with a constructive and coherent plan?
We have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was in 1953. Or in Rees Moggs case 1853
Why? In what way does complaining about the incompetence of the govt hinder them in coming up with a constructive and coherent plan?
U can go back to May's Lancaster house speech and the Tory conference last year with its anti-immigration theme to see where the government were setting the divisive tone, they'd still be carrying on in that vein if us remoaners hasn't whinged loud enough 😉
It is possible the is one, just one upside to Brexit. 😯
[img] 
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Iannucui is editor of big issue next week- he's going to have a Brexit interview of Malcolm Tucker by Alan Partridge 😀
s not a zero sum game.
On the contrary Dr. The EU is very clear that the UK must be seen to lose. So while I agree with you in theory and in aspiration (we should look for a win:win), the reality is completely different. It is very much a zero sum game in their eyes with only one winner. The project.
Acting with integrity on the rights of EU nationals will not leave us worse off.
It's irrelevant. You are talking about an body that has been very happy to ride roughshod over the rights and needs of EU nationals with catastrophic economic and social consequences. The EU does not place nice with its own let alone third country citizens. Forgetting that is extreme folly.
Brexshit is bad enough
Brexshit reflects some of this reality. The majority of voters feel that their interests are best served outside the EU. The behaviour of the EU is one reason historically and their current intransigence merely provides courage to the Brexshiteers
Re JRM and Bojo, I have made my views clear before. I have little time for the positions of either extremes of the Tories and Labour. My ideal scenario would be a cross party coalition with the mandate to deliver Brexshit with the minimal loss. That would be led by the relatively same ones such as Starmer and Hammond and the beaurocrats behind them. Despite the fact that Labour and the Toires are singing from the same hymn sheet, the likelihood of is happening is less than zero.
But that simply reflects the crass and petty party allegiances that dominate UK politics and society. Does more harm than good. But there we are.....common sense is in very short supply
I agree how will our unity change this especially as you say they dont care about their own citizens never mind third party ones?The EU is very clear that the UK must be seen to lose
"Acting with integrity on the rights of EU nationals will not leave us worse off. "It's irrelevant. You are talking about an body that has been very happy to ride roughshod over the rights and needs of EU nationals with catastrophic economic and social consequences. The EU does not place nice with its own let alone third country citizens. Forgetting that is extreme folly.
It is relevant to who we are. Are we happy to behave disgracefully towards people just because the EU may have done likewise on some other occasion? As you know from other topics I am no fan of the EU but that does not mean that I support behaving like an arse [i]vis a vis[/i] EU nationals.
Dare I say it, but I think you are exaggerating - reading too many of Eds diatribes. There is very little between the status quo and what we are saying - hence my link to the the Home Office doc on how this works currently.
I tried to get my head around the concept of what it means to be a third country citizens but TBH failed to fully get to grips with it. But based on my knowledge of third country equivalence in other areas, I assume that it is also an imperfect substitute for what rights we have now.
Frankly, the duty of the U.K. Gov is first and foremost to protect the interests if UK citizens. If that requires some bargaining then so be it in my mind. It's a dirty business dealing with EU politics. Taking the imaginary moral high ground would mean zip in reality if the interests of Uk citizens are not protected. As I said before the EU has no credit in the moral high ground account. To believe otherwise is extreme folly. Ask Yiannis
My ideal scenario would be a cross party coalition with the mandate to deliver Brexshit with the minimal loss
No Brexit at all would be my ideal scenario. Are you prepared to make that statement too, THM?
No, unlike you, I respect the democratic process. Your intention is clear as are the means that you deem appropriate to deliver it, ranging from persistent misrepresentation of facts to advocating economic vandalism. That approach lies below those of the Brexshitters in my mind, which is a very low bar indeed.
A second referendum is the only acceptable answer. Until then we will keep on fighting and pointing out the absurdities of the governments lack of position.
Leaving the EU will cause enormous damage and already has done. It must be stopped. The collapse of this tory shambles is the first step
The problem is that is acceptable to those who oppose it but it wont be to about 50% of the population who will be livid and we have the same thing but reversed. There are no good ways out of this situation that include unity or a unified country.
Unlike THM I cannot get behind this madness anymore than he can get behind the madness of another referendum on it never mind what proper Brexies think.
I agree - but a second referendum with a nice remain vote which i am sure we would get with a half way decent campaign would shut up the hard core brexies - their " the will of the people" shtik would be shown to be absurd and we would get to stay in the EU. Its the only outcome that is not disasterous
Misquoting again, THM. And accusing me of misrepresenting facts without justification - you failed to counter my assertion that the Good Friday agreement was incompatible with Brexit and the British government was in the process of tearing it up. Other people can read you know. All of them can read my posts but at least two of them have blocked you becuase you're such a ****.
Edit: oh and thanks fro confirming you are in favour of Brexit and prefer Brexit to no Brexit, that makes you a Brexiter, which confirms what I've thought all along.
Nothing will shut them up as they hate the EU and would find it a betrayal. They would no more accept the result than Brexxies have, perhaps even less so.a nice remain vote which i am sure we would get with a half way decent campaign would shut up the hard core brexies
Aye but they would no longer be able to claim the "will of the people" so would have nothing but moaning to do and would soon lapse back into the lunatic fringes from whence they came
just like remoaners have?
The consequences of Brexit will perhaps be insignificant compared with dividing a previously fairly harmonious population in two. Previous divides in British society:
rich - poor
the class system
north - south
old - young
right - left
people lived with, and it was easy to categorise almost everyone you met. We now have an invisible divide that is more divisive than any issue I've followed on this forum.
It's natural I don't get on with THM, on the above divides I'm on the other side of every one of them. But there's only one that makes me use ************s, Brexit.
Edit: oh and thanks fro confirming you are in favour of Brexit and prefer Brexit to no Brexit, that makes you a Brexiter, which confirms what I've thought all along.
QED - thank you for confirming my point.
"Thought" - there's a big assumption there.
. you're such a ****.
And you are a genuine charmer with such a way with words. Thank you .