[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

A lot of KY jelly

FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals

That will depend on the negotiations won’t it.

It's possible I am misunderstanding something, but were both these statements made concerning the same topic? I'm having trouble reconciling them, they appear substantially inconsistent.

Never mind chaps. Pull together and get on with it.

Interesting reading former Irish PM, John Bruton’s words:

Bruton told the Brussels branch of the IoD: “I hope more negotiating time can be agreed. If not, the tempo of the negotiation must be immediately, and dramatically, increased. Unfortunately, there is little sign that the current UK government, the originator of Brexit, sees this at all. Their mind is on other things.”

Of course, none of that is to say that Labour managing these negotiations wouldn’t further expose deep divisions. [EDIT: in their own party.]

Tick tock and all that...

There simply isn’t enough time to hammer anything out and as unpalatable to Brexiteers as it might be, A50 should be extended by another four or five years.

May has done the classic trick - as with the £20bn - of covering both bases. Exactly what she should be doing.

She may be out of her depth but she is not a complete fool.

Interesting reading former Irish PM, John Bruton’s words:

Negotiations? I think DD has somehthing to do with those, when he can be bothered to turn up.

All the time in the world… tick tock.

So do we know exactly or is it all for negotiation?

May has done the classic trick

At his daily press briefing in Brussels, the EC’s chief spokesman, Margaritis Schinas, insisted the next move had to come from the UK.

“There is a clear sequencing to these talks. There has been so far no solution found on step one, which is the divorce proceedings, so the ball is entirely in the UK court for the rest to happen,” he said.

All perfectly clear...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/eu-migrants-rights-theresa-may-florence-speech-brexit-a7962911.html

A50 should be extended by another four or five years.

That's a possibility, though the EU might just insist we withdraw and come back when we're ready. Which will of course be never. Depends how flexible they are prepared to be.

On the contrary things have moved in after Florence albeit as a glacial pace. The ball is in .... (joke)

Back to work now. Got Brexshit to prepare for !!!

She may be out of her depth but she is not a complete fool.

Maybe. Maybe not. But she has surrounded herself with them

[img] [/img]

Now then.

Essentially. That’s an interesting word.

Sometimes it means we just need to sign, sometimes it means just about to fall apart, sometimes it means 90% complete where it will stay forever.

I wonder what it means with regard to the ongoing status of EU nationals.

Good to see the remainer Scots getting on with trying to sort the issue though THM. Now if we can just convince the Brexies in charge of the negotiation to do the same.

It’s a very interesting word indeed and well used.

Sturgeon looked a shadow of her former self on Marr. Reality hits home. In contact to the v chirpy Ruth 😉

Depends how flexible they are prepared to be.

I think they’d probably help us to extend it - it would be in the interests of the bigger players - were we to not leave without a deal.

Of course our best chance of re-joining would be to crash out onto WTO whereby we’d be back in within a couple of decades. Not sure what to wish for to be honest. 🙂

Essentially. That’s an interesting word.

it would be in the interests of the bigger players - were we to not leave without a deal

You almost fooled me with the double negative there DD

- infinite loop error -

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-theresa-may-david-davis-margaritis-schinas-juncker-barnier-eu-brussels-a7990406.html ]Its like groundhog day isn't it?[/url]

Barnier has just stated the ball isn't in his court at all as its not the EU's job to provide solutions to problems created by the UK, its the UK's job to provide solutions to the Irish border, citizens rights etc, and since the last round of talks, nothing has changed

Dave was too busy doing other stuff, so didn't bother attending negotiations today

Tick tock....

It's almost as if BOTH sides are spinning it out in the hope it might just wither and die.

I think the EU are still waiting for Davies and co to actually start negotiating seriously. At the moment its the UK government that needs to show some ideas / find some solutions

to be fair we have moved they have not
In negotiations both sides need to negotiate and there has been no movement from the eu - its not a negotiating point its a test that has to be passed.

I personally think its foolish of the Eu to think the bill can be agreed without access as it seems blindingly obvious to me that how generous we are with the settlement is related to how generous they are with access

WHo you blame is up to you but there has been zero movement from the EU and some, however much you wish to criticise it, from the UK.

Personally I see no need to pay the budget unless we have access and the EU view that we signed it so we have to pay, even if we leave, is unrealistic.

I dont want to leave the EU but i dont want to pay for the EU and not have access either. What is the point of that ?

sorry Junkyard - I simply don't agree. There has been no significant movement from the Tories - just proposals they must know are completely unsatisfactory. the ~EU do not need to do anything. This is all the tories doing.

As for paying? We agreed that budget and spending plans - its honorable to pay your debts.

So where has May and the three clowns compromised?

I dont want to leave the EU but i dont want to pay for the EU and not have access either. What is the point of that ?

If we chose not to settle "the divorce bill"…
Will the EU be allowed to stop paying the pensions of UK staff?
We've asked for fissile material contracts overseen by Eurotom to continue… will that be done for us for free?
When seeking replacement trade and other arrangements, with nonEU countries, how will they take into account our refusal to honour previous arrangements with the EU (some which also include third countries)?
When the big battles begin in earnest to sort our WTO position, do we want one of the biggest parties behind us, or against us?

We agreed that budget and spending plans - its honorable to pay your debts.

There has been no significant movement from the Tories

where has May and the three clowns compromised?

I am not criticising the EU here but i see little point in failing to accurately describe reality.

t's about honouring existing commitments that have a timespan beyond March '19

Things have changed the EU needs to recognise this rather than just say well you agreed the budget up to x . we did but we were a member then and not leaving. Like arguing i need to obey club rules and fees after I leave. In what sense have I left if I am still paying?

Problem is with that its gone like this

EU - this is our position
UK - we want cake and eat it
EU - this is our position
UK - ok just a bit of cake.

Moving from a position that is simply unacceptable a tiny way towards the other side is not negotiation. Its just stupid. Trouble is May and the three clowns arte actually playing to in house tory infighting with what they say. They are not negotiating in any way. An opening position that is 0% then moving to 5% is not negotiating with good intent. Its laughable.

rom a position that is simply unacceptable a tiny way towards the other side is not negotiation

The EU does not have to move. They picked a rigid set of parameters and are sticking to them. Those parameters are the minimum they can possibly accpt. they cannot go any lower

well at least we both agree they are not negotiating

Nope - they are waiting for the UK to start negotiating seriously. Once they have some serious proposals then maybe they will.

🙄

come on Junkyard. Nothing from Maybot and her pals is a serious negotiating point. they have made no offers at all that are in anyway serious or acceptable. Just playing to their own allies in the UK

I think the divorce analogy is better than the "leaving a club" one. Think of the net or neutral EU contributors as parents and the net receivers as kids. The UK was the prime mover in having more kids (eastern expansion) against the wishes of the rest of the family. Now we want to walk out on the relationship and chase after some other bit of stuff elsewhere. If it were a real divorce a judge would surely insist on some form of maintenance payments, at least until the kids had grown up.

“Most voters aren’t really thinking about it in a very analytical way… the people behind the leave campaign are voting with their guts. There’s no spreadsheet. This is much like a divorce without a pre-nup. You’re voting to leave, and we’ll take care of all the financial details later.”

A quote from one of those experts we'd had enough of, that has bubbled up today because of them winning a Noble prize.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/richard-thaler-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-2017-behavioural-economics-nudge-theory-a7990291.html ]Indy link[/url]

come on Junkyard. Nothing from Maybot and her pals is a serious negotiating point. they have made no offers at all that are in anyway serious or acceptable. Just playing to their own allies in the UK

the EU has set some criteria that has to be achieved it is not negotiating we are - its impossible to negotiate with someone who wont change opinions ....as we are both about to demonstrate 😉 .

re the divorce analogy I like your explanation but its more like you agreed to buy a second holiday home and they keep it whilst expecting you to pay for it whilst never being able to use it.

Trying to boil this stuff down into simple analogies in an intellectual race to the bottom is part of how we got into this shit in the first place.

*bangs head on floor*

this is like negotiating with the EU I even agreed with you and still I have not moved enough for you 😉

the EU is playing hard ball , they know they are in the strong position and taking full advantage of the situation .
you cant blame them for that .

Why given the fact one side is moving its position and the other is not do you decide to focus your ire on the ones not making serious offers rather than the ones not making any offers?

You have successfully argued/proved they have a clear position not that they have negotiated,

I think everyone would have to agree our view, however ill defined it remains, has changed where as the EU has not. I dont disagree with your explanation of how poor it has been.

The only negotiating going on is in the cabinet… and May's warm words in speeches do not give anyone anything to work with. The EU haven't moved, but, even if they wanted to, what is there to move towards? What does our government want?

To be a politician doesn't require a track record in delivering results, just a track record in convincing enough people you may deliver results.

we agreed to pay till the end of the budget for a transition deal we agreed to take into account ECJ rulings * so we are moving they are not

Given this I dont see how you can call the EU repeating, an all be it clear , message over and over again as negotiating.

I am not saying we have been competent but they have not even been trying.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may

See sequencing here - its basically there attempt to delay negotiations and we should see it as such. I would not be surprised for them to play hardball over finances then say no to any economic deal.

* TBH to think a sovereign nation is going to let a foreign powers courts rule over people here is bonkers. They would not accept UK courts ruling over EU decisions so why ask for something you would not accept in a "negotiation"?

EU nationals should be given a period of time say 5 years and then accept they live her under UK law like the rest of us. Can you imagine the reaction if EU people have better rights than we do - its not why anyone voted brexit.