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But worrying about hitting your thumb with a sledge hammer when you’re using a claw hammer is pretty pointless.
I would say that worrying about hitting my thumb with any hammer is logical.
Back to Brexit.
Are you seriously saying that Brexit should be allowed to go ahead simply because it might not quite be as bad as some people think it might be?
Or are you saying that it is going to be so much better than some people think it might be, that it is actually a good idea?
The first option is patently nonsense on a logical basis, but more likely to be true.
The second option makes sense on a logical basis, but even the most insane Brexiteer has given up pushing it because it never survives its first contact with reality.
Hint - I am setting a trap for you here.........
Goodbye Mini?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/05/bmw-mini-cowley-no-deal-brexit-toyota
I would have to put that down as a darker shade of grey.
Note also Toyota (UK investment freeze since 2016) also having their say.
No one can say "we weren't warned".
Are you seriously saying that Brexit should be allowed to go ahead simply because it might not quite be as bad as some people think it might be?
Once again dannyh you're in la-la land. There is no debate about whether brexit should be 'allowed' to go ahead, that decision was made 3 years ago for better or worse. The debate now is how it should be implemented. Any views on that? Cos this pointless wailing about the unfairness of it all is is pretty boring.
There is no debate about whether brexit should be ‘allowed’ to go ahead, that decision was made 3 years ago for better or worse.
you obviously are not looking at that debate which is raging as we speak.
The debate now is how it should be implemented. Any views on that?
We have a deal on offer, that is the deal, no more negotiations. Time is up do you want that deal?
Cos this pointless wailing about the unfairness of it all is is pretty boring.
Sounds like you are just zoning out here, leavers have had their shot at negotiating the easiest deal in the history of deals, it's on the table right now. We have to make a choice to accept that, leave with nothing or remain.
Once again dannyh you’re in la-la land.
No. This is 2019. Brexit is doing untold harm to this country, and should either be stopped, or a compromise of EEA+CU sought. Carrying on as we are, claiming that the vote in 2016 mandates that we do, is nonsense.
The Tories are doing harm to this country yet we elected them again and accepted the result.
In my opinion staying in as is is not an option without another referendum. Judging by this forum remain would win by a landslide.
I suspect Leave could narrowly win. I also think that if we are to Leave, we need a long delay to get ready and minimise/spread the damage… and the best way to get that long delay is probably a referendum. So… whatever the result of a referendum… the country needs one… it won't get one though… as the resulting (further) damage to the Conservative party could see it never win a majority in parliament again in my lifetime… oh, and because of Corbyn&Milne&Fisher&Co's longstanding views on the EU… those in positions of real power in both parties will kill another referendum… some how… if they haven't already that is (which I think they have).
There is no debate about whether brexit should be ‘allowed’ to go ahead, that decision was made 3 years ago for better or worse. The debate now is how it should be implemented. Any views on that? Cos this pointless wailing about the unfairness of it all is is pretty boring.
There is a debate about whether Brexit should be allowed to go ahead. It is happening right now.
The decision was not made three years ago - although technically triggering A50 could be construed as indicating it should be started - but if you're referring to the advisory opinion poll of June 2016, then 'no'.
So, after dispelling (for what seems like the millionth time) the myth that our hands are somehow tied and we have to go through with this - I would like A50 revoked. Failing that, I would like to see a Peoples Vote - the result of which I would accept.
The conduct of the Leave campaign (or some very vocal parts of it) has been pronounced to be fraudulent. I would say this gave it an unfair advantage - particularly as the result of the advisory opinion poll was so close.
But I also don’t belive the project fear obsesion on on here is a healthy place to be. All I try to do is put a slighty more optimistis side to a poor situation.
I don't believe that blindly dismissing people's genuine concerns as "project fear" is a healthy place to be either. Project fear doesn't exist, it's a leaver myth intended - wildly successfully - to hand-wave anything they don't want to hear without requiring any further argument. That doesn't mean people aren't genuinely, justifiably, really scared.
Sure, it's laudable to be optimistic, but please be realistic also. It's all well and good standing on a train line going "well, I'm sure it'll be OK, the train driver will see me and stop" but if there's even the slightest whiff of possibility that you might, in fact, actually get hit by a train then surely you should seriously consider whether your actions are wise even if you truly believe it to be an unlikely outcome?
This is Risk Assessment 101, you analyse the likelihood of a problem occurring and the severity of its impact. If I did a RA for a system change at work and concluded "likelihood of failure = small; severity of failure if it occurs = very high" it'd immediately get the brakes slammed on the project whilst further analysis and mitigation could be undertaken. No-one, ever, goes ahead with a project thinking "it'll probably be OK but if it isn't then we're ****ed," that's P45 territory.
Any views on that?
🙂
With my British hat on: nothing polite beyond withdraw Art.50.
With my French béret on: either remain and contribute positively or **** right off.
/ 🙂
Put yourself in the shoes of a European head of state. The stated objective of Brexit is to make Britain great again, somehow out-do the rest of Europe with cheap labour, tax advantages, trade deals and deregulation. What you going to do? Help, or make sure there is no advantage. There's just one complication, making sure Ireland doesn't suffer.
Project fear doesn’t exist, it’s a leaver myth intended – wildly successfully – to hand-wave anything they don’t want to hear without requiring any further argument. That doesn’t mean people aren’t genuinely, justifiably, really scared.
We just need to look over the channel.
French Customs Staff do full checks on all trucks - result 8 hr delay and the sign that the infrastructure cannot cope
"Project Fantasy" This was the damm froggies going on strike and brexit will be nothing like that
"Operation Grayling" We drove 8- trucks around Kent and it wasn't too bad
"Reality" 10,000 Trucks pass through each day, at the most optimistic level it takes at least a minute to stop and start a truck, so that is 10,000 minutes needed in a 1,440 minute day. That means 7 lanes running flat out, so using a sensible availability that is 8-10 lanes.
Now make that a check with anything more than waving a passport and you are up to a significant amount of delay at each and every port, every extra check needs space and time - how much extra space is there at Dover right now? Which day will we close the port to alleviate the queue?
I also think that if we are to Leave, we need a long delay to get ready and minimise/spread the damage… and the best way to get that long delay is probably a referendum.
Or perhaps a minimum 2 year transition period where everything stays the same whilst we hammer out the detail?
You might be hard of reading and understanding Taxi25, but don’t assume other people are.
Easy Tiger, surely there must be some actual brexeters you can engage with to insult. But on here I suppose I'm as close as you can get,(a remainer, just not someone who's all mardy about it) but hey ho carry on, I'm a big boy and if I've got something to say on this thread I'll carry on and say it.
So distorting and falsificating what people say is OK with you and not insulting, Taxi25, becasuse that's what you do to others. I find it an insult to the intellignece of other STW members when you manipulate what they say. The most recent example is you rubbished my 8-hour queues for "ports" quoting zero queues for Eurotunnel which in case you hadn't notice use trains that go through "terminals" or "stations".
If you regularly posted arguments clearly in favour of remain I would believe that you had changed from the leave camp ( you stated you would vote out at the start of this thread) to the remain camp. But you continue to post as a leaver claiming Brexit will be just fine.
Sunny out in EU land.
Or perhaps a minimum 2 year transition period where everything stays the same whilst we hammer out the detail?
That's great, if you want the EU to have full control over our trade and standards while we have no say, and then try and negotiate with them from that position. Oh, and with (unlike now) no way of unilaterally ending much of that arrangement. If I was an EU trade negotiator, I'd be pretty happy with that. No idea why any UK MP would agree to it (except to avoid something so bad that anything is preferable).
Mark Zuckerberg just lost 8.6 billion dollars. That would have bought a lot of £350m NHS bus payments.
Meanwhile, Jeff Bezos is now personally worth 130 billion, slightly more than the UK itself.
That last comment by @Taxi25 is just trolling. Time to ignore him from now on.
That last comment by @Taxi25 is just trolling. Time to ignore him from now on.
It is, but I think it comes from the anger and frustration that the arguments he/she puts forwards just don't survive contact with reality.
In a way, this frustrated lashing out and doubling down by resulting to personal attacks is Brexit in microcosm.
Time to ignore him from now on.
Your free to ignore whoever you choose to Kelvin. But if you live in an echo chamber you'll be a worse person for it.
But if based on an occasional posting history of mild scepticism regarding the most doom laden brexit prophesies you get this.
I find it an insult to the intellignece of other STW members when you manipulate what they say.
What can you do other than laugh. 😂😂
P.s
Keep at it danyh, I'm sure you'll find a real brexeter to hate one day 👍
I drove back from Belgium yesterday lunchtime. I came back using the Tunnel. There were 2km long queues of articulated lorries on the A16 to both west and east carriageways. It is clear that neither France or the UK is ready for the future Brexit situation, I foresee only pandemonium, consequently I do have a Brexit shelf including food, wine and some some other things.
In a way, this frustrated lashing out and doubling down by resulting to personal attacks is Brexit in microcosm.
This is highly ironic given that I was recently called a far right propagandist by someone* from the 'cancel brexit because all the people who voted for it are a bit thick' contingent. It's even more ironic since all the brexiteers have been bullied off this thread by the righteous indignation of people who think they are the only ones who should be given a say on the matter.
*I forget who it was unfortunately and can't be arsed going back 20 pages.
It’s even more ironic since all the brexiteers have been bullied off this thread by the righteous indignation of people who think they are the only ones who should be given a say on the matter.
Well is asking them to explain how something will work bullying? Could it be far fewer people are in the mood to hearald brexit a wonderful opportunity and success these days?
What is obvious on this thing is that there will be significant disruption to goods in and out of the UK in the event of no deal. How we prepare for that is up to everyone to decide as the government don't give a ****
Well is asking them to explain how something will work bullying?
Not at all, but we've had 1500 pages of mostly mud-slinging, some of which I admit I have been a part of. It's stuck in an endless cycle which I would contend is now largely fuelled by the outright denial of the likes of dannyh to accept reality. I made my own peace with brexit some time ago. I doesn't mean I disagree with it any less, but I'm more interested in how we move forward, learn lessons from it, mitigate the worst effects, and perhaps even take advantage of the precious few upsides of it (a struggle I admit).
I doesn’t mean I disagree with it any less, but I’m more interested in how we move forward, learn lessons from it, mitigate the worst effects, and perhaps even take advantage of the precious few upsides of it (a struggle I admit).
I think I found an upside at the weekend - cheaper booze tax at airports as we'll be flying to non Eu destinations.
I would contend is now largely fuelled by the outright denial of the likes of dannyh to accept reality.
As MP's are currently arguing over another referendum, extensions and cancelling as options I'm not sure who is in denial here.
perhaps even take advantage of the precious few upsides of it
Namely............?
Or is that 'mudslinging' too?
Conflating unwelcome scrutiny with 'mudslinging' or 'name-calling' is a very common thing. It can be done unconsciously or deliberately.
There were 2km long queues of articulated lorries on the A16 to both west and east carriageways. It is clear that neither France or the UK is ready for the future Brexit situation
French customs won't be responsible for checking lorries going to the UK so it is difficult to see how this protest/strike illustrates anything relevant. This of course makes it ideal fodder for this thread.
denial
Situation : We are on course to Leave the EU in a little over 3 weeks time without a Withdrawl Agreement with the EU, and with only a handful of trade agreements with other countries.
Contention : We shouldn't, we should do something else.
A lot of people are discussing what that something else should be… others keep saying, "it was all decided in 2016", and telling others to shut up about the hard choices that will be made this year month, and in the next few years.
It’s stuck in an endless cycle which I would contend is now largely fuelled by the outright denial of the likes of dannyh to accept reality.
So many points to refute.
It is not stuck in an endless cycle. If it is, it is cycle that has been going since about page 50.
I refute your contention that it is largely fuelled by any poster - I would say it is mostly fuelled (correctly) by reaction to Brexit news stories that are appearing on established media.
I refute that accepting that Brexit has to happen is the only 'reality'. It isn't. MPs are still kicking all options around, no deal, hard brexit, May's deal, extension, revocation - the lot. If I refuse to accept 'reality', then so do a lot of the people who are ultimately going to make the decision.
cheaper booze tax at airports
Yey!
But also… less cheap booze can be brought back from France in the boot of the car?
We probably did that back on page 10. Mind you, we probably also did the possibility of Nissan, Mini & most of the car industry giving up on us if we Leave… plus ça change…
I drove back from Belgium yesterday lunchtime. I came back using the Tunnel. There were 2km long queues of articulated lorries on the A16 to both west and east carriageways. It is clear that neither France or the UK is ready for the future Brexit situation
There were long queues at the Swiss/ German border when I went through last summer. Switzerland is in Schengen but not the customs union, so cars go straight through but goods have to be checked. Given the problems this causes for a small landlocked country we can assume much worse for a larger island country.
French customs won’t be responsible for checking lorries going to the UK so it is difficult to see how this protest/strike illustrates anything relevant. This of course makes it ideal fodder for this thread.
So where will the ferries be queuing? They will be checking incoming trucks as its the border of the eu.
The French border officials do seem to think they are being asked to check trucks on exit.
If I refuse to accept ‘reality’, then so do a lot of the people who are ultimately going to make the decision.
Hardly any MPs are talking about revocation, there’s no majority for another vote, and no majority for no deal. Which leaves a deal of some sort, and yes that means we’re leaving which is the obvious stark reality. You should get used to that, it will reduce the resultant disappointment. Not leaving is still remotely possible, but please don’t pretend that it’s any more than a fringe interest.
French customs most definitely will be respobsible for lorries going to the UK.
La surveillance douanière
Toute marchandise qui entre sur le territoire douanier communautaire est placée sous la surveillance douanière.Cette surveillance ne cesse que lorsque la marchandise a acquis le statut communautaire ou lorsqu’elle estexportée.
Toute marchandise sortant du territoire douanier communautaire est, également, soumise à la surveillancedouanière et peut faire l’objet de contrôles
Translation of the relevant bit:
"Any goods leaving the customs territory of the Community are also subject to surveillance and may be subject to controls."
So the French can choose just to wave stuff through and make it UKC&E's job to check/control it all, moving the problem to our shores, which I would fully expect them to do.
8hrs of delays is probably being optimistic in that scenario, but is a good place to start from, given that our transport secretary couldn't even successfully organise a traffic jam.
So we're back to the only pragmatic way of this whole thing not being a shit show is to at the very least put in on hold. But that would take leadership, and we don't currently have any.
Hardly any MPs are talking about revocation, there’s no majority for another vote, and no majority for no deal. Which leaves a deal of some sort, and yes that means we’re leaving which is the obvious stark reality.
Until there is a free vote there will be deadlock, the Majority of MP's are remain. Shall we see what happens?
So the French can choose just to wave stuff through and make it UKC&E’s job to check/control it all, moving the problem to our shores, which I would fully expect them to do.
And when Dover is full and you can't unload a ferry?
It'll be fine, we organised a gridlock of Kent when we stacked all those lorries at Manston, and that went swimmingly, oh.....
So the French can choose just to wave stuff through and make it UKC&E’s job to check/control it all, moving the problem to our shores, which I would fully expect them to do.
I think you underestimate the fun and games governments will play if there's a no deal. I think there will be an initial pragmatic go on as before and then customs people will be given targets to influence buisinesses to act in the national interest. This is the stated objective of Brexiters so why wouldn't other countries join in or even retaliate in some cases.
Brexit is the first stage, a trade war is the next going on the British negotiating style so far.
Why? When they can point and laugh at the complete mess the whole of Kent will be in, what's the point of creating traffic jams and problems for the locals around Calais.
Also, the term "trade war" implies that we'll have something we can fight with, given our reliance on imports and balance of trade I'd say a trade war will be short in duration, and with us on the receiving end.
Hardly any MPs are talking about revocation…
Give us a number, and then we can dispute it (I posted a few on here the other day, but I'm not sure how many makes more than hardly any). There isn't a majority in parliament for any plan of action, that's true… but plenty of options have more than "hardly any" MPs proposing or discussing them. Many of which were proposed back in 2016… but not all. Still some big decisions to make.
The French border officials do seem to think they are being asked to check trucks on exit.
Supply chains I suppose. Parts entering the UK, that will form constituent parts of goods to be imported back into the UK, must be accounted for when they originally leave the EU, no? Many items cross borders several times before hitting the market. One of the reasons that car manufacturers are going to be screwed, and fish/seafood processing areas are asking to have some kind of special status.
what’s the point of creating traffic jams and problems for the locals around Calais.
Repatriating lots of business.
🙂
If I were a customs officer I'd take apart every Mercedes F1 team truck every time it appeared, every Toyota or BMW/Mini truck too (I might turn a blind eye to Iranians hanging on the axles through). Trucks with wine and cheese would obviously get fast-tracked
If I were the major of Calais I'd build a big parking with snack bars, restaurants and special places for sex workers' camper vans.
/ 🙂
On a serious note look at customs practices between the USA, Mexico, China and the EU, because that's where the UK is heading at best long term in a no deal scenario.
If I was a french customs officer in Calais I'd be turning a blind eye to every migrant/immigrant trying to get to the bankrupt UK. Another six months and this sh!thole won't attract anyone, however desperate. I may find myself hanging under a truck in Dover trying to get out!
You're all still confusing customs declarations, which MUST be made for all cross border shipments, with physical checks on goods, which are down to the DISCRETION of the relevant authorities and are based on risk assessment and intelligence.
Its up to the French what sort of physical checks they do on their side of the border just as it will be up to the UK to decide what sort of physical checks to do on this side.
You’re all still confusing customs declarations,
Some of us really aren't.
customs declarations,which MUST be made for all cross border shipments
No, lots of exemptions at lots of borders. Edit for clarity:
Switzerland
https://www.ch.ch/fr/douane-suisse/
all the brexiteers have been bullied off this thread by the righteous indignation of people who think they are the only ones who should be given a say on the matter.
Hold on a minute there, Tonto. We're not the ones that have been crowing "shut up and get over it" for the last three years and trying to shut down anyone who disagrees with us. It's not that we think we're the only ones who should have a say, rather that we should have a say at all rather being deftly ignored by most people in a position of power. (And if you think anyone has bullied anyone else, called people names or otherwise been offensive generally then you really should go pop your head in a leaver Facebook group at some point, we're a bunch of kittens dipped in glitter compared to some of the vitriol and hatred being espoused on there.)
And in any case, there's an argument that none of us should have a say, the government should be acting in the country's best interests and not pandering to whoever can shout the loudest. They're our representatives not our delegates. But we've been here before, this is another Page 2 argument.
Its up to the French what sort of physical checks they do on their side of the border just as it will be up to the UK to decide what sort of physical checks to do on this side.
It is, but as posted before roughly an average of 1 min per truck going to Dover from Calais requires 8 lanes of checking* to avoid much delay (24/7) add that to the UK side too. They will want to do more checks on imports.
A look at Dover doesn't show much room to stack up trucks coming off ferries. So if that is blocked we either wave everything through or stop unloading. You stop unloading and you stop clearing trucks out of Calais.
If Calais has a backlog inspecting trucks on the way in then we stop loading at Dover.
You need to stop all the booked traffic when it's blocked to unbung it - so how many days a month will that be?
The entire thing screams massive problem when you look at the flow, buffering space and frequency of the ferries.
*Ball park quick calc
Ahhh, I see the Grayling Expressway is being put to good use there.
Ok what is the Lisbon Treaty that comes into effect in 2022? A friend assures me that this is the reason he voted out. He just says that we will be screwed over by it.
It is, but as posted before roughly an average of 1 min per truck going to Dover from Calais requires 8 lanes of checking* to avoid much delay (24/7) add that to the UK side too. They will want to do more checks on imports.
I'm not sure we should assume that the level of physical checks by Customs and Border Force at Dover will rise. The sort of things you need to catch at the ports are prohibited goods (eg firearms, drugs), smuggled booze and fags and illegal immigrants. Whether we are in or out of the EU, I can't see these risks changing much.
But as I said, what the French decide to do is a different matter.
A look at Dover doesn’t show much room to stack up trucks coming off ferries
This is a good point. I was told by a logistics chap that pre single market (1992) it would take 20 minutes to make a Customs declaration at Dover. That's to park your truck, get out of the cab, present your documents at Customs, go back to your cab and drive off. And since 1992 all the truck parks have been built on.
But that is if you require a full manual Customs declaration at the point of entry. With everthing still up in the air, who knows what is going to be required.
@Pigface, it's a blatant brexiter fabrication, it's become more widespread as the Brexit talks have got more shambolic.
It says variously that in either 2020 or 2022, that all EU countries have to adopt the Euro, join an EU army, remove all internal borders, we lose our veto etc etc.....
A quick Google will show it's all bollox, the Lisbon treaty came into force in 2009 and you can actually download the text and search for the year 2020 or 2022 (it mentions neither date)
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12007L/TXT
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/04/anti-eu-brexit-fake-news
That's just made me think how damaging it could be for haulage firms too.
I used to work in logistics, and lorries need to run pretty much 24/7 to turn a good profit, they only stop for driver rests, driver changes, refueling, defects or scheduled servicing. Otherwise they are losing profit.
You think hauliers will be prepared to have thier vehicles sat for hours at a time at ports?
Well maybe, but the price per load will drastically increase, and that increase will be passed on to the consumer in the form of more expensive products.
And that's without accounting for any tariff increase.
As Kimbers said above^^^, it is completely made up leave propaganda. It was all over twitter a while back and taken apart.
Sandwich snr regularly crosses the channel on his way to his house in Najac or to a "free"* appointment at the NHS hospital. (He's a UK taxpayer before anyone starts frothing).
Apparently there's the biggest lorry park appearing at Calais ready for the forthcoming orderly exit. I suspect the French customs officers are going to be earning lots of overtime after March 29.
*Free if you don't count the 700 miles of driving each way in an Iveco powered camper slurping diesel at around 30mpg, nor the Chunnel crossing fares and the campsite fees.
I’m not sure we should assume that the level of physical checks by Customs and Border Force at Dover will rise.
Hard border = proper checks, that is no deal and it's an option at the moment.
Ok what is the Lisbon Treaty that comes into effect in 2022? A friend assures me that this is the reason he voted out. He just says that we will be screwed over by it.
It's Project Fear.
Aside from the fact that the "Lisbon Treaty" meme doing the rounds currently is pure fiction as Kimbers says (and if you really want to refute it beyond just going "it's bollocks" then see here: https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-brexity-lies-that-have-gone-mega.html ),
If your friend is telling you that the reason they voted leave is because of the 'Lisbon treaty' then he isn't just misguided or misinformed, he's outright lying to you. This trope only reared its head a month or two back.
Thanks Kimbers et al, will shut him down tomorrow
We’re not the ones that have been crowing “shut up and get over it” for the last three years and trying to shut down anyone who disagrees with us.
That may be the case, and the debate on the pros and cons of brexit has been won by the remainers for quite obvious reasons. But that still doesn't excuse ridiculous snobbery that is now on display here and around the country. Gleefully pointing out how shit it's all going to be, shouting 'I told you so', and celebrating job losses in brexit voting areas, along with the now common abuse of anyone with a different view doesn't actually get us anywhere does it? And it doesn't solve the problem that brexit has created. As I said some time ago, brexit, for better or worse, is happening because there are more important and more fundamental principles of our system of government at stake which require it to happen. At some point this has all got to come back together, or we risk descending to a place that I'm sure none of us want.
Pray tell, what are these fundamental principles of our system of government that an advisory referendum has put at stake?
I wasn't allowed to vote but Brexit could have a big impact on my family and I.
So if those people who voted Leave have to suffer the Consequences of their decision it is fine by me.
Pray tell, what are these fundamental principles of our system of government that an advisory referendum has put at stake?
That's mudslinging. Stop it at once.
Gleefully pointing out how shit it’s all going to be, shouting ‘I told you so’, and celebrating job losses in brexit voting areas,
Go on lets see the posts.... there might be one or two who are heading that way but aside from out chav/northener hater it's certainly not the majority view.
As I said some time ago, brexit, for better or worse, is happening
and frankly many disagree with you hence much as you want it to go away it's still a debate that is happening and one we are discussing.
So Minford was right, the car industry is screwed, i guess brexiteers are sometimes correct.
As an aside Morgan cars have now been sold to an Italian company. So what choice is there for a British car?
As I said some time ago, brexit, for better or worse, is happening because there are more important and more fundamental principles of our system of government at stake which require it to happen.
Perhaps he is referring to the new and debased definition of 'democracy' which means 1 single, corrupted, advisory vote can take precedence over all other forms of governance.
I still argue that proceeding with Brexit in its current form is far more damaging to the definition and principles of democracy than abandoning Brexit would be.
Democracy requires that all members of a state are allowed to contribute to the governance of the state. Blindly enacting the results of an advisory referendum is not good governance, although arguably the 'good governance' ship had already sailed when David Cameron called the referendum in the first place.
But that still doesn’t excuse ridiculous snobbery that is now on display here and around the country.
You do have a point.
It's easy to think of leavers as backward thinking bigots because they are.
Perhaps he is referring to the new and debased definition of ‘democracy’ which means 1 single, corrupted, advisory vote can take precedence over all other forms of governance.
I do indeed. It's not new though, we've had the same system since time immemorial. And that's the problem with it. Our democratic system is far from perfect, in fact it's barely fit for purpose, but it's what people are used to and understand. There is an unwritten rule buried deep into the people's psyche that when they vote, and there is demonstrable result, it is honoured. That's a much more fundamental principle than being a member of a supra-national trade bloc, even if it bestows benefits and advantages that we will miss when they are taken away. If we mess around with that principle, especially on the basis of a minority, or at best divided consensus, then we're in uncharted waters. It's a bloody dangerous experiment that could lead us into all sorts of chaos and misery, and I'd rather avoid that.
I think the people that said "Don't do it!" "Don't do it!" "Don't do it!" "Don't do it!" "Don't do it!" and were answered with "We know better!" "We know better!" "We know better!" have every right to say "I told you not to ****ing do it!"
and then to add "Now sort this mess out immediately"
Some might argue that an overhaul of that system is so far overdue that one of the few beneficial things that might come about from this madness is that we are governed/represented differently in future...
Edit: by "argue", I think I just mean "hope"...
@dazh in my heart I suspect you may be right, but at the moment I feel like I’m on an acceptance curve, and right now the level of anger I am feeling towards Brexit and those who voted for it is so high I simply can’t think about it rationally. I’m afraid it will get worse before it gets better...
timbog, you've articulated my feelings very well. I kinda know that it's almost inevitable now, but I haven't really accepted it, and am clinging to that last vestige of hope that it may be averted.
Oh, and the anger, too... 😠
There is an unwritten rule buried deep into the people’s psyche that when they vote, and there is demonstrable result, it is honoured.
Do I even have to point out the issues with that sentence?
It’s a bloody dangerous experiment that could lead us into all sorts of chaos and misery, and I’d rather avoid that.
It already is leading us into all sorts of chaos and misery (potentially...) so when do we stop it?
When do we give the population the education in 'what is democracy' that they evidently so badly need?
When do we set a precedent for the next generation of politicians so that they don't just hold their own diversionary bullshit referenda without thinking about the consequences?
If we continue with Brexit because 'this is what people now think democracy means' then all it does is vindicate that belief, next thing we know we're having referenda on gun ownership, capital punishment, banning Islam etc. etc.
@timbog160, @fadda, you can feel it is inevitable, but the question then becomes what brexit. That hasn't even started, argue for EFTA, EEA, etc.
Brexit either ends now, or will drag on for decades.
If brexit ends now, then the trials and recriminatons begin, which will drag on for decades.
There is no win, the choice is really about how bad it is going to be.
Looks like others have it covered already, but I came here just to reply to the "we must leave" talk with "and then what?"
how ****g terrifying must this be for people with cancer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47462762
and people still think brexit is a good idea!?!
It’s a bloody dangerous experiment that could lead us into all sorts of chaos and misery, and I’d rather avoid that.
You are describing 'spiking' of Brexit, there.
But you are also neatly describing Brexit itself.
As noted above, the question is now really one of cost. We can accept a cost that is basically loss of 'face' if you want to portray it like that and a few people might get nasty.
Or we ruin our economy and end up with exactly the same results, only in a far, far worse way.
And having another vote certainly doesn't mess with that 'unwritten rule' as it is not stopping anyone from voting. It's hardly unusual to ask for confirmation of an action once the details become clear.
how ****g terrifying must this be for people with cancer
Didn't this get mentioned aaaages ago? And get breezily waved away as "project fear"?
The news is that it is now so late in the day, that appointments and tests need to be "prioritised" now, no matter what happens in a few weeks time. The "wait and see" period is over.