[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Even more remarkably, some people still think we should press on with the process. Meanwhile we've got a placeholder PM with no mandate, no support in the HoC, and no chance of getting any agreement through the legislative process.

Indeed our two main parties captain who dominate the vote. Remarkable isn’t it?

Still some stay in denial and would rather ensure that our hand is weak. Remar.....

The next thing will be people who like the EU and it’s laws will be objecting to ensuring we have them in place on day 1. Rema....

I don't see anyone "on their side". We dealt them a hand full of aces and they are playing them in the obvious way.

Only if they mistake the joker for the ace. Sensible Europeans know the dangers of a hard Brexshit and are as scared of it as we are. Unfortunately there is the project snd it’s [s]lack of integrity [/s] in the way

Who dealt the cards Doc?

we, our press, and remoaners are on THER side.

What a very accurate description that was and no one could deny that.

What exactly woudl constitute strengtheing our position - an election mandate, a united party etc

the reality is the country is divided on the issue. heck even leavers are divided on what they want to achieve so division is inevitable.
I suggest you learn to deal with this as the country is never going to speak with one voice on this issue.

Sensible Europeans

Sensible Europeans are getting on with European things. Brexit is just a minor annoyance for them.

Like the Catalans and the German auto makers ?

Minor !!!

I think they realise the EU position is to protect the EU so they are just not expecting a deal and neither should we. They want the Uk to suffer afterwards so that the "debate " about being better off out than in has a very clear and obvious answer. It was always going to be this

Business may want free trade but politicians are looking for political solutions and there are none as there is no will on the part of the Eu to deal. We all knew this before we voted so the dream of being out the EU but in the market was anything but "sensible".

Scared! I'm terrified. Could someone explain exactly what it is I'm to fear?

So far I've learned that the EU institutions will be repatriating jobs, banks will be relocating personelle here, the European trading platforms will be more active, manufacturers will be sourcing more from the continent, foreign investors will no longer be attracted to Britain and likely to invest in the EU, the EU will get a windfall payment and then regular payments for market access, the US will establish direct ties with the EU rather than using Britain as a proxy.

You see there's spin on both sides and both are trying to make a bad thing look good.

😀

So France & Germany have said that there can be no transition until the exit bill is settled.

Exactly they are controlling the narrative and the process. To coin a phrase we need to take some control otherwise it WILL be bad

When we triggered A50. We gave them full control. End of. Still hasn't dawned on most though.

Sorry for calling such a big proportion of the UK populous "stupid", but, with so much time passed, and so many opportunities to wake up and see the world as it is, "misled" or "uninformed" is no longer strong enough. I argued against those calling huge swaths of Leave voters "stupid", but I think time is proving me wrong. Utterly depressing.

Only if we chose to

we need to take some control

Meaning what, in concrete terms?

the EU will get a windfall payment

The EU expects a windfall payment

the likelyhood of the UK paying one when getting "shafted"* is not high

* By which i mean paying a budget to an organisation we no longer have access to

I wont be saying my gym membership for 2 years when i cancel without being allowed to use it and its daft of the EU to think anyone will accept this

The ECJ is another example no nation is going to let a "foreign court" rule over it and allow immigrants to have greater rights than natives
I assume the EU also know this and its a deliberate line to avoid a deal

The more it goes on the more i see two sides who are either so far apart that a deal is impossible of they have deliberately drawn lines in the sand to make sure no deal is possible.

I dont see why parallel talks [ trade and money and people] is such a daft idea

So what is it that we have that the EU needs?

Unless we sign up and pay in our banking services won't be accessible
Ok we are a market for cars and for food stuffs but as I understand it we will still need to eat so for the short term at least we will probably keep our supply chain the same for food. For cars I thought the money market was China. That the fact Vauxhall could not compete there as gm wanted to push the Chevrolet brand was why the company was failing.
Everything I buy seems to come from China...

So the next thing is what goods are we exporting that cannot ever be made in Europe or elsewhere by someone with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit. If it is the service industry that's just moving people so really easy.

Honestly I am not trying to have a dig I want to know so I can try to future proof myself. I know the company I work for is closing uk offices and plants and consolidating to Germany and Romania.

... So what is it that we have that the EU needs?

Airbus need Rolls-Royce engines, not insignificant.

I know people in Europe are a bit concerned about the UK not participating in future EU science e.g. Horizon2020. Yes, in simplistic terms it means more money for them but they are actually farsighted and thoughtful enough to care more about the quality of the research (and losing a strong UK collaborator would weaken their bid after all, it's not pure altruism on their part). But there's nothing really anyone can do about it except look around for alternative partners and/or poach UK-based scientists, both of which are of course ongoing. And UK-based ERC grant holders are also casting around for alternative homes of course.

So what is it that we have that the EU needs?

Access to funding, European governments and companies raise huge amounts of funding through London, whilst economists will argue money is fungible it is never quite as simple as that and would involve a leap into the dark for them.

But there's nothing really anyone can do about it

Considering Israel participates in Horizon 2020, there really is.

I wont be saying my gym membership for 2 years when i cancel without being allowed to use it and its daft of the EU to think anyone will accept this

currently raise but they will happily be shifting the centre of European finance away from London

Whatever one wishes to claim its obvious that in 10 years, 20 years and 50 years that they wont still be raising the sums they do today from London.

Oh I know it's quite possible in theory for the UK to participate in H2020, but there's no way of knowing whether that is actually going to happen, and no meaningful way for EU scientists on the ground to affect that decision. Precious little influence for UK scientists either, of course a bit of lobbying but no-one yet knows what the landscape will look like.

Exactly mefty. Have been making that point at work all week. The biggest losers from the fragmentation of wholesale markets are EU corporates and households.

It’s time for the UK to play very hard ball now. May needs to grow a pair and lead on this. We need to move this forward and there is only one way to get the EU to negotiate properly. You look then in the eye and make it very clear. We WILL walk away. Period. So you either negotiate or you don’t.

Time for some guts. Do we have them?

ROFL

"They need us more than we need them"

I didn't think there was anyone left (outside the swivel-eyed loons) who still dared to say that.

Come to think of it, I'm still not sure there is.

Quitlings be talkin’ tough. 😀

Airbus need Rolls-Royce engines, not insignificant.

Sadly a significant potential for GE to gain more market. Obviously the too have a presence with compressor manufacturing in the uk.

Personally I am worried we rely so much on Siemens and Alstom for our trains with no locally viable option. I guess local subsidiaries serving the local market if it is big enough...

We both need each other. BUT if the EU are going to do what they always do, you need a new approach

Nothing more on Florence. If you don’t think that is enough oK, we end the negotiations now

We don’t just sit there with a tub of KY jelly waiting to be rogered

May needs to grow a pair and lead on this.

Well, now that's sorted we can all relax.

Not really because it won’t happen. We are emasculated and frozen. The eu are in control at the moment. And remoaners seem to delight in the fact.

I'm not delighted.

It's just we told you it would be a clusterf@@k. And it is. And will continue to be so.

Delighted, or furious?

Both the main parties voting to trigger A50, with one pretending to have a plan, and the other washing their hands of the need for a plan, still makes me furious. That it is leading us towards an inevitable short term choice between "no deal resulting in chaos and damage" or "something akin to Norway that will never wash politically back home", as has been clear from the start, can make no one delighted, except perhaps those who don't understand how the WTO or international trade in general works, or how the big nonEU countries and trading blocks will be ready to turn all the screws once we are exposed. Those warning about all this shit for years, can take no delight in any of this, unless they're very odd indeed. It's an awful situation, that isn"t about to become glorious and positive thanks to a fluffy speech from someone who loves quoting Churchill.

R O A R

And remoaners seem to delight in the fact.

Not me. I've said before, I hope I'm wrong. I hope we end up with a social cou try where government improves the environment and invests in innovation and has an open relationship with Europe, without trade barriers and with freedom of movement but without any of the negatives of the EU.

But I can't see that happening.

We don’t just sit there with a tub of KY jelly waiting to be rogered

A tub of KY and also a good supply of tinned food waiting for the German car-makers to crack while the supermarket delivery trucks are parked up outside Calais.

THM - you know as well as I do that the June 23rd 2016 leave vote, was a vote to be done over. Anyone who thought otherwise needs their head examining.

And there is no way that given the behaviour of the Brexies since then, the country will ever be united enough to stand up to the EU as you ask. The press, the politicians, Brexies generally have been a disgrace and an embarrassment. That won’t change fast enough to get a sensible Brexit. Sorry and all.

Don’t understand first para, sorry

Remoaners have overtaken Brexshiteers in BS since the vote and the stupidity of weakening the UKs position. They are the ones who have become the more embarrassing

Still in denial and making a bad situation a lot worse

THM - no denial, just realism.
We won, you lost, get over it is not a way to bring people together. Nor is branding the judiciary as enemies of the people.
The attitude of Brexies since the vote has made our country more divided by the day.
If you recall I have at least twice on this thread tried to explore what a successful Brexit might look like. The Brexies has nothing to offer.
Nationally it was up to the Brexies to start a positive debate on what a good Brexit that would bring the country together might be - they failed spectacularly.
Instead they tried to coerce people into compliance - many folk don’t take too well to that.
Hence through their actions the Brexies have ensured a bad Brexit - but we can always hope that something turns up I suppose.

As for the first paragraph - did anyone think the EU was not going to try to make sure the deal we get outside the club was substantially worse than the one we had inside the club? Really? That’s not being nasty, it’s just without that, why have a club? And I know you know that, you’ve said so (or at least that is what I’ve understood you to say) on a number of occasions.

Now if you can tell me what I’m denying, I may start to take your accusation seriously.

Resistance is noble. When you are sure of what's right and good be faithful to your values and resist those that would destroy the what you hold dear.

So I'm not in denial and I'll do what I can to sabotage the Brexit process. Which might make a bad situation temporarily worse but if successful, will make Britain a better place.

You go on strike knowing that there are risks but that if you win then you'll be better off long term.

You take on your stroppy kids head to head because if you back down they'll be bigger little horrors than if you resist.

When a government leads you down a path you don't want to go you dig your heels. They won't be around forever and if you provide enough resistance they won't have dragged you far and it'll be an easy walk back the the path you wish to follow.

Fight the good fight... .

The brexxies left this thread a long time ago for good reason.

e. The Brexies has nothing to offer.
Nationally it was up to the Brexies to start a positive debate on what a good Brexit that would bring the country together might be - they failed spectacularly.

You conveniently forget their did win, we liost ecause we failed to present a positive case for remaining. Easy to forget, eh?

Because they had nothing to offer?

Go on, where in what I said am I being unfair to the disgraceful Brexies?

They had the opportunity to try and bring the country together - they decided not to take it.

The divided country will lead to a bad Brexit and it is their doing.

I have no responsibility for Brexit of any type, though I am of course trying to help ensure this country doesn’t do any worse than it has to.

I seem to recall asking the Brexies months ago what they we doing and was met with silence. They come across as a bunch of wreckers with no positive ideas.

The eu are in control at the moment. And remoaners seem to delight in the fact.

I am delighted. See below nail - on head.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-i-learnt-to-loathe-england

Scotland should be let in if it wants, and Northern Ireland too. But England is out and must be kept out—at least until it has resolved its deep internal problems. Call it nation building.

The division WILL lead to a bad Brexshit. You got that right

The offer is a bespoke deal which if successful would be only a mild lose. But the remoaners want to make that more difficult than it needs to be. The looney wing - even if not domiciled here - even want to create deliberate economic damage. Says it all.

I seem to recall asking the Brexies months ago what they we doing and was met

As before they left this thread for good reason. There is no point in responding the the greater lies bring (ab)used by the remoaners here. It became a contest to see who could lie the most outrageously