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ageism?
Go on…..? I’m intrigued now?….
Sorry, my mistake. The references to "magic grandpa" were a compliment.
Now, are you going to admit you were wrong about a customs union?
But if Labour choose the new vote question, are they going for their Brexit version, remain or what?
Time is running out.
Whereas I’m not at all astonished that you called me an anti-semite and then ran away rather than explain yourself
Don't worry, I'm going to go to work in that thread again soon. There's just a fair amount of material to work with.
Now, are you going to admit you were wrong about a customs union?
"A" customs union is anything you want it to be, possible/negotiable, or not.
What kind of customs agreement is achievable with the EU without FoM is the real question. Would it be too restrictive? Too limited? Of very limited usefulness to business looking where to site investment in Europe?
An ellipsis has three dots.
Agreed... But that < is not an ellipsis. This is an ellipsis…
If they can’t get a Labour Hard Brexit, they will support us having a say over a Tory Hard Brexit.
Ah so a bit like Russian roulette where there's 6 bullets in the gun and either they can pull the trigger but it looks better if you did it yourself....why can't I climb to this level of clever shit
Youre very naive if you don’t see this as a panicked response to millions of voters deserting them for Chukka & co.
No.
That's how you see it. Doesn't make it a fact. (Millions of voters?)
Like I said there was an amendment to an amendment on the 29th of Jan for a consideration to a second referendum - Tinger Soubry voted it down.
Don’t worry, I’m going to go to work in that thread again soon. There’s just a fair amount of material to work with.
Yes, you managed further abuse without relating it to anything I've actually said. I can't say I'm surprised, as you seem determined to live down to expectations.
What kind of customs agreement is achievable with the EU without FoM is the real question. Would it be too restrictive? Too limited? Of very limited usefulness to business looking where to site investment in Europe?
All relevant questions, which is why binners was factually incorrect when he dismissed it out of hand.
Starmer has said vote will be between deal or remain.
Edit and Corbyn is on board with it.
Rumour has it that Labour don’t want “Remain” as an option on the ballot.
I know 14 hours is a long time in this thread, but I wanted to drag this back.
I think, possibly for the first time in my life as far as I can remember, there really isn't a 'Labour' or 'Government' position as such, there's a leadership position but MPs from every party have grown a set, or at least know there's not so much to gain from sucking up to their leaders any more.
Okay, maybe 'Labour' don't want remain as a option, maybe not - it doesn't matter, it's individual MPs who vote now, not parties - I mean Labour is lead by the officially least loyal MP by means of voting for his parties politics. 3 line whip? Do me a favour, threaten to make someone leave? The Tiggers have shit the main parties right up, it's one thing to have a few hardcore backbenchers spewing bile about the EU, but when MPs actual leave to join forces will MPs from across the commons, that's a completely different thing.
So maybe 70 Labour MPs won't vote for Ref2, fair enough - 176 will? The ERG represent about 60 Tory backbenchers, but not even 48 of them were brave enough to sign a letter of no-faith in May - so they'll block Ref2, I'm sure a few others will try to block it too - after all, Brexit has been such a runaway success with the Country completely united behind it, no need to ask us to have another vote now we all know the truth. Call it 150
Bill for a second Ref - ayes to the left 500, Nays to the right 150.
Labours 'plan' is totally nonsensical. Remain in 'a' customs union, but not 'the' customs union, retain tariff free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and end freedom of movement.
As a negotiating position it wouldn't survive first contact with reality. Though as is amply being demonstrated by those who 'believe', reality is in very short supply in the bunker
Cake, anyone....?
And I agree with P-Jay. Whatever position the 'leadership' of either party parrot is increasingly irrelevant in the face of the total breakdown of party discipline.
That can only be a good thing in my book as both parties have been 'led' by their nutter wing for the last couple of years. Hopefully this means the less deranged are now asserting their authority
How massively ironic that its Jeremy Corbyn on the receiving end of that rebellion.
Schadenfreude?
TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter - in a matter of days.
This is going to end well for labour isn't it?
Bwhahahah.
Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving. The Tories image as the party of business is irrevocably destroyed meanwhile labour is imploding. Who would have thought it would get this mental 3 years ago?
TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter – in a matter of days.
Followers, not voters.
And those polling numbers are irrelevant unless they stand in every seat.
TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter – in a matter of days.
This is going to end well for labour isn’t it?
Bwhahahah.
Yeah, Tiggers are the new kids on the block so every Man, Women and their Dog are interested, whether they support them or not. They're not really a party (at the moment) plus there are former Tories amongst them, it's not just a Labour splinter group, although I suspect a lot would return under a different leader.
I'm really interested in how they pan out, if they do become a party, or 'just' force change within Lab/Tor and then fade into history.
And those polling numbers are irrelevant unless they stand in every seat.
A hunch tells me a lot of donors are going to be throwing money at them to do just that.
In a mirror image of having Theresa May supporting an amendment to defeat her own deal, According to John Pienaar on the BBC; Corbyns goons are presently having meetings with labour MPs in leave voting areas to get them to vote against his own party's stated policy (and that decided by conference) of a second referendum,
The worlds gone ****ing mad!
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else's views other than his own
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own
Or you could work out this is the single most decisive issue in UK politics, doesn't fall across any party lines and is causing chaos everywhere. The only leader with any slight control is May and it's only slight as she can put things forward and sort of control the timetable. the rest don't have that and no threat of losing power to whip votes.
That is the lesson to learn form this.
Corbyns goons are presently having meetings with MPs in leave voting areas to get them to vote against his own policy’s party of a second referendum
So Corbyn has gone full Vladislav Surkov in his approach to politics (postmodernist theatre)?
Farage suggests leavers should boycott any referendum offering choice between May's deal and remain.
Farage quits?
Labours ‘plan’ is totally nonsensical. Remain in ‘a’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union, retain tariff free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and end freedom of movement.
So nonsensical that it's what Turkey does right now.
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost
The only thing it confirms is that he's not the 'totalitarian dictator' that you and others on this thread have been claiming and that the labour party democracy is in ruder health than the usual anti-labour suspects on here claim. There will be people who disagree with the 2nd vote policy, and they will continue to campaign against it, as they have the right to do. They will probably rebel too when it reaches the commons. I'd rather they didn't but as some have said, politics is now in a place where party whips have been rendered redundant so there's no reason for them not to.
The main question now that labour has activated the final stage of their brexit policy, is whether it will damage them in an election. They've nailed their colours to the mast (belatedly admittedly), as many on here have been wanting, so now we just have to wait and see what happens. My feeling is that whilst it may help to resolve brexit in as benign a form as possible, they've given up any hope of winning the next election. You might want to get used to the idea of Boris Johnson as PM. Strange isn't it how quiet he is at the moment? Keeping his head down no doubt in advance of the coming tory leadership election.
So nonsensical that it’s what Turkey does right now.
What "Turkey does now" doesn't keep the border on Ireland open, and doesn't allow for us "having a say" in future EU trade deals, as Corbyn is seeking.
The main question now that labour has activated the final stage of their brexit policy, is whether it will damage them in an election. They’ve nailed their colours to the mast
I honestly don't think the party or Corbyn has, I really think Corbyn is playing at being Surkov. He is Schroedinger's Brexiter, in that he is still pretending to be both a remaminer and a brexiter.
Maybe this is why Boris has gone quiet? (Maybe he is in hiding in South America!!)
anti-labour suspects
Criticising Corbyn and his team of shitbags is not equivalent to criticising all labour policy. It’s cultish to describe Corbyn’s critics of being “anti-labour”.
The Tories image as the party of business is irrevocably destroyed
In only two words as well - impressive.
Corbyn and labour still have the problem of 100 or so labour MPs who believe that labour must not have a remain option ever at all - not for leftie reasons but for fear of the electorate
"The Labour MP John Mann warned Corbyn risked being ditched by voters over the party’s “absurd” shift to support a second referendum.
“Voters won’t have it. The last person to renege on their manifesto was Nick Clegg. It didn’t end very well for him on tuition fees,” he told Today.
“Our manifesto was unambiguous – we would accept the result of the referendum. A second referendum doesn’t do that and the voters – in very, very large numbers – will not accept that.”
This is Corbyns issue and it would be the same with any labour leader.
BTW binners - that did not answer my question but I know its impossible.
One little quote of Corbyn saying he wants a hard brexit? Labour position is softest of soft brexits
And now labour have come down firmly on a second referendum - the attack dogs are out
My feeling is that whilst it may help to resolve brexit in as benign a form as possible, they’ve given up any hope of winning the next election. You might want to get used to the idea of Boris Johnson as PM.
Yep.
Tory double win. Crackers.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1100376928341688321
15th March is the day Caesar was stabbed in the back, wasn't it?
nd now labour have come down firmly on a second referendum – the attack dogs are out
That's well and truly underway.
But you know what we will have a Tory government and be in the EU. Status quo = austerity and living standards plummeting.
Sorry Uncle Jezza but on this your wilful myopia regarding magic grandad is absolutely ridiculous. Much like the rest of the cultists
I'll link it again for you
LABOURS OFFICIAL NEGOTIATING POSITION AS TAKEN FROM ITS OWN WEBSITE
Labour offers fair rules and reasonable management of migration. In trade negotiations our priorities favour growth, jobs and prosperity. We make no apologies for putting these aims before bogus immigration targets.
Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.
in what way does that fail to answer your question? As part of its official position the labour party's own website clearly states that FoM WILL END
So... no freedom of movement... no customs union and no single market
Pure pie-in-the-sky cakism
But you know what we will have a Tory government and be in the EU. Status quo = austerity and living standards plummeting.
So which is responsible for "austerity and living standards plummeting"? The Tory government or the EU?
the attack dogs are out
True.
Looks like some front benchers are prepare to fight back against Milne&Co this time though…
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1100297815547437057?s=21
So… no freedom of movement… no customs union and no single market
This is just pedantic arguing about the semantics. Labour have been clear that they want a customs union and regulatory alignment with the single market. By any definition that is a soft brexit. Who cares if we call it 'THE' customs union or 'A' customs union? It's just daft.
Anyway, there's now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario. In that case he'll have carte blanche to make concessions to the US. Bye bye NHS and workers rights. All enabled by the failure of the labour party to stick to it's manifesto commitments. I look forward to Yvette Cooper et al being rightly slagged off on here in a coupe of years when we start to see the wholesale dismantling of the welfare state.
As far as I can see the only hope of avoiding this now is to win a new referendum and win a remain vote in it. Given that there are substantial numbers of MPs on both sides who will not support a referendum, that's going to be an extremely tall order.
Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt
nah that was Labour not backing a 2nd ref much sooner, leading to a splintering of the party & their vote
Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario.
Thats quite a leap you made there...
nah that was Labour not backing a 2nd ref much sooner, leading to a splintering of the party & their vote
Well that's just pure speculation. At least we know what the excuses and accusations of blame will be when labour lose. It's tragic really, the only hope of brexit not being the neoliberal nightmare we all fear was the labour party being at the helm to steer it, and I really can't see that happening now.
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own
A Wikipedia contributor / editor has conveniently condensed his thoughts and actions in regards to the EU into a couple of paragraphs.
"European Union
Corbyn has previously been a left-wing Eurosceptic. In the 1975 European Communities referendum, Corbyn opposed Britain's membership of the European Communities, the precursor of the European Union (EU).[250] Corbyn also opposed the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993,[251] opposed the Lisbon Treaty in 2008,[252] and backed a proposed referendum on British withdrawal from the EU in 2011.[253] He accused the EU of acting "brutally" in the 2015 Greek crisis by allowing financiers to destroy its economy.[253][254]
During his leadership campaign, Corbyn said there might be circumstances in which he would favour withdrawal from the EU.[255] However, in September 2015, Corbyn said that Labour would campaign for Britain to stay in the EU regardless of the result of Cameron's negotiations, and instead "pledge to reverse any changes" if Cameron reduced the rights of workers or citizens.[256] He also believed that Britain should play a crucial role in Europe by making demands about working arrangements across the continent, the levels of corporation taxation and in forming an agreement on environmental regulation.[257]
In June 2016, in the run-up to the EU referendum, Corbyn said that there was an "overwhelming case" for staying in the EU. In a speech in London, Corbyn said: "We, the Labour Party, are overwhelmingly for staying in, because we believe the European Union has brought investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment." Corbyn also criticised media coverage and warnings from both sides, saying that the debate had been dominated too much by "myth-making and prophecies of doom".[258] He said he was "seven, or seven and a half" out of 10 for staying in the EU.[259]
In July 2017, Corbyn said that Britain could not remain in the European Single Market after leaving the EU, saying that membership of the single market was "dependent on membership of the EU", although it includes some non-EU countries.[260][261] Shadow Minister Barry Gardiner later suggested that Corbyn meant that Labour interpreted the referendum result as wanting to leave the single market.[262][263] Corbyn said that Labour would campaign for an alternative arrangement involving "tariff free access".[261] In January 2018, Corbyn reiterated that Labour would not seek to keep the UK in the single market after Brexit,[264] however in June 2018 Corbyn called for a "new single market" deal for the UK after Brexit maintaining "full access" to the EU internal market, as opposed to the "Norway model" which pro-Remainers in the party wish to see.[265] In October 2017, Corbyn said that he would vote remain if there were another referendum.[266]
In 2018, Corbyn said his main reason for not committing to remaining in the single market was freedom from EU rules on state aid to industry. He said the UK government should not be "held back, inside or outside the EU, from taking the steps we need to support cutting edge industries and local business".[267] This prompted backlash from senior EU figures, who said that state subsidisation would be a "red line" in negotiations, as it would lead to a possible trade war between the UK and EU. One senior figure told The Times: "We have to protect ourselves and the single market ... If a Corbyn government implements his declared policies the level playing field mechanism will lead to increased costs for Britain to access the single market because of distortions caused by state aid."[268]
Also in 2018 Corbyn said he would seek a new type of customs union with the European Union, but will seek exemptions of some EU regulations for the UK, such as those regarding state aid and government subsidies.[269]
In 2019, Labour lost a vote of no confidence in the government. The Conservative government sought to open cross party talks while Corbyn initially said Labour would refuse to attend talks unless the government ruled out a "no deal brexit".[270]"
Of course this is his voting record and more recent statements and should be considered in conjunction with his rather quiet performance running up to Ref1.
I've read recently, but I don't know how true it is that he's the most 'disloyal' MP in history, in regards to voting against the whip when he feels he should. Over 400 times in his time, his voting record it said to be anti-EU up to the point he became leader of Labour.
If he did wish to remain up to Ref1, it's clear to me that he certainly doesn't want to be part of the single-market post-brexit, given how few trade deals we have at the moment, a non single-market withdrawal would mean a 'hard' brexit to me.
Backing a second referendum earlier would also have split the labour party.
Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario. In that case he’ll have carte blanche to make concessions to the US. Bye bye NHS and workers rights
That's the only thing that will keep the economy afloat in the event we crash out.
Hard Brexit can never be anything but a neoliberal nightmare unless you want to align with Cuba, Russia, Iran and China. If a neoliberal nightmare occurs, it's not because the Labour party failed to hold it together - it is because they failed to oppose brexit.
All those working class brexiters are well and truly ****ed now unless we cancel A50.
And +1 Kimbers.
Labour might have been able to mittigate the effects for a term, maybe even 2 (highly unlikely) but the Troies would get back in eventually & thered be no EU sfaety net by then.
More to the point the damage caused by brexit red or blue would be hitting the poorest hardest
Corbyn, McCkluskey, Milne etc have steered Labour onto the rocks
This is just pedantic arguing about the semantics.
No. Having a customs agreement with the EU, even if you call it a union, is not at all related to what the EU Customs Union actually is, and how it operates. Do not be confused by the use of a very similar name to describe something undefined and not yet agreed with the partners that would be involved (and that wouldn't just be the EU, it would be all those with existing and future agreements with the EU as well, and even those using WTO rules only mainly to trade with us).
The reason we won't have a labour government any time soon is for one reason and one reason only....
Jeremy Corbyn
There may be otehr factors, but theres your elephant in the room. To reach any other conclusion you need to be absolutely delusional and displaying a Waco-cult style level of devotion to the Glorious Leader!!
More to the point the damage caused by brexit red or blue would be hitting the poorest hardest
The problem with this statement is the assumption that there is a third option of no brexit. As I've argued many times that ship sailed 3 years ago. Whilst I admire the continuing hope that it may still be an option, the reality is that the chances are vanishingly low. The only hope of mitigating the impact on the poorest is to get a deal along the lines of labour policy, and then having a labour government. There's still a decent chance of the former, but very little for the latter now that labour have been forced to go against their manifesto commitments.
Just saw the BBC news 'Theresa May offers MPs Brexit delay vote'
It looks like the remainders are silently celebrating a victory with the latest announcement from the PM. Although the remainders are portraying themselves as "victims" of the political change, they are just about to pull the carpet from under leavers' feet with a coup and perhaps even to perform the final coup de grâce for leavers. It will be remainders 2 - 0 leavers.
You mean the red unicorns policy?
Besides, the customs union is little better economically than Mays deal - and as others said - it won't hold once the Tories get back into power.
And Labour economic policy would make us pariahs in both the US and the EU. I don't even see how Corbyns labour would actually manage to keep us in the customs union considering their policies. The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.
Meanwhile, allegedly the Tories are revolting. [insert obvious joke here]
According to reports, a group of 23 met at Commons to discuss how to stop Brexit happening without a deal.
...
"if the Prime Minister is not able to make this commitment, we will have no choice other than to join MPs of all parties in the House of Commons, including fellow ministers, in acting in the national interest to prevent a disaster in less than five weeks’ time that we may regret forever.’"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996
Thanks @chewkw… looks like actual votes in parliament to decide what the (immediate) next steps should be. About time. Will there be some of the usual tricksy May vote avoidance before then though?
The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.
I wonder if anyones thought of trying that before? And if so, how it went, electorally? Sounds like a good idea, in theory
I think that it's fair to say that the recent Labour defections and the numbers who've cancelled their membership (including me) citing frustration with Magic Grandpa's ambiguous Brexit policy may well have precipitated this, but I don't hold out much hope that it'll change anything - there are a lot of "what if"s before this scenario would play out.
The comments from Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson about supporting the forthcoming People's Vote march are welcome.
I wonder if anyones thought of trying that before?
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn't even convince their own members let alone the voters.
but I don’t hold out much hope that it’ll change anything – there are a lot of “what if”s before this scenario would play out.
Nothing is going to work at this stage in the game. Its a case of damage limitation now. And a desperate one at that. When it comes to 'what ifs? you have to wonder if when faced by far the hugest risk to all its previous achievements, and with it likely to usher in the greatest assault on the lives of the working classes - what would have happened had the leader of the labour party even bothered to turn up for the EU referendum campaign, then do something more than sit there for 3 years with his thumb up his arse?
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members.
No.... I definitely seem to recall someone else beforehand.
You're right though, elections are won by how many official members you have. Everyone knows that. So best to restrict your appeal exclusively to them, even if everyone else finds you repellent, it doesn't matter. Its as good as in the bag!
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members let alone the voters.
Posted 7 minutes ago
You mean the time they lost because the British public ALWAYS lurch right during a recession?
You’re right though, elections are won by how many official members you have. Everyone knows that.
Wait. What? The members arent important? Only a few days ago we were being told because Labour members overall are pro remain we should remain/have a second referendum. It really is hard keep up with the latest anti Corbyn cult position.
Its good to see that whilst the tories are still fiddling with their rebels keeping their heads down the cultists are keeping to their normal hobby of launching rabid attacks on Corbyn rather than questioning the tories. Or indeed bothering to look at the obvious divisions in the Labour party between the remainers and not.
The ERG and tories in general must love the useful idiots ranting about magic granddad or whatever the latest inane nickname is whilst letting the tories piss all over the place.
A more moderate labour party? You mean the tories? This labour party policies are simply main stream social democratic in European terms. If they move further to the right they become a right wing party as they were under blair latterly.
La la la.
Take the "everyone else is a Tory" chat to somewhere else please, and get back on topic.
Wait. What? The members arent important?
They've very important indeed. I don't know about you, but I'm quite happy that the country is presently being held to ransom by a few thousand demented pensioners in the home counties who want to bring back hanging and invade France, then install a haunted victorian pencil as PM, and that our present party system has allowed them to dictate policy for the last few years
I'm equally happy that the opposition can't oppose this madness because the party leadership is dependent on a load of sixth formers, who they ignore, and Derek Hatton and some more old trots who still think its 1977, are more interested in whats going on in Venezuela than Brexit, and would quite like it if there weren't so many jews in the country.
All in all listening to 'party membership' is working out great for the country, right across the board
Sorry TJ but Corbyns "democratic capitalism" is way, way more redical than anything on the continent. The idea sounds nice but the implementation would be hugely disruptive and absolutely piss off all of our neighbours and allies. China only gets away with co-operative or nationalised industry because they have the clout to be able to sell in foreign markets, the UK would instantly find itself blocked from any foreign markets and a lot of very upset pharmaceutical, automotive, aviation and tech industries would pull out the UK and then lobby against us.
Huawei is finding it hard enough, and they have the Chinese state behind them - not a co-operative in Swindon.
Sorry TJ but Corbyns “democratic capitalism” is way, way more redical than anything on the continent.
At last, something real to discuss rather than childish insults. What is radical about it? Workers reps on boards? Companies operating in the interests of society rather than just their shareholders? Macroeconomic policy to be democratically accountable and transparent?
And are you suggesting that worker-owned businesses cannot be a success? Evidence would suggest otherwise.
It will be remainders 2 – 0 leavers.
Well I shall get the champers on ice then.
At last, something real to discuss…
Start another thread about it then.
Even Farage doesn't want to leave anymore (perhaps he's just realised he'll be out of a job...)
Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable, but we all know that the cold harsh reality would be: 'we're going to renationalise the railways and we're putting Len McClusky in charge. Don't worry... he'll have it sorted in no time!'
"Oh... and we're sorted the energy supply companies out. We've booted them all out and we're re-opening the mines"
the continent.
At last, something real to discuss rather than childish insults. What is radical about it? Workers reps on boards? Companies operating in the interests of society rather than just their shareholders? Macroeconomic policy to be democratically accountable and transparent?
And are you suggesting that worker-owned businesses cannot be a success? Evidence would suggest otherwise
Worker owned companies are shareholder companies, they act in their interest not necessarily societies.
Co-ops work in a limited range of industries (it's no use riffing off the usual suspects like John Lewis), they do not work in industries that require rapid change - tech, pharma, engineering. If my company democratised then we'd spend 30 hours of the working week arguing and we'd fall behind the private classic corporations.
Direct democracy in regards to macroeconomic policy is mental for the same reason the Brexit vote was.
If you really want better labour bargaining power, the world has to equalise it's living standards and tax rates, somewhere where the EU was headed. Labour isn't internationalist like that now though.
The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.
That's a downward trajectory. It doesn't change the status quo, which as we know as not been good.
A more moderate Labour part is exactly what they don't want.
It's not a downward trajectory because of moderate labour or the EU, it's a downward trajectory because the rest of the world is improving their purchasing power, where hard power and bargaining ability is what guarantees your wealth. Corbyns economics won't change that.
You can't insulate the UK from the rest of the world, both the left and right need to understand that they aren't living in the 50s - where Johnny Foreigner was poor and ill educated. The working classes need to learn that the wealth that was stolen and brought into the country, giving them jobs - is no longer available to us.
We live in a limited system, for every foreigner who earns more and betters their life - without considerable growth in the UK - the more your lifestyle costs.
We need more resource abundance through automation and new tech and less people. Everything else is pissing on a fire.
Even Farage doesn’t want to leave anymore
In fairness to the arsehole he is simply saying he doesnt agree with maybots proposal and, I assume, would prefer a hard brexit option to be on the voting paper.
Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable, but we all know that the cold harsh reality would be
Thats quite a leap you made there… Sorry I am too lazy to include the inane picture so just imagine it.
Rayban / Binners - in most of Europe energy production and distribution are in state hands, ditto railways. Go on - name a single labour policy that is extreme and is not firmly in the social democratic tradition.
thoughts, May has decided we are leaving an MPs are too stupid to see they are being played. The EU elections mean no parliament from mid April. No elections on the UK means the UK can't be in the EU 1 July.
All the talk of extensions is actually irrelevant, mid April it is over. an extension to mid June really only gives two weeks.
May is basically offering her racist little england brexit or no deal. The talk of Labour backing a referendum is simply playing to the galleries wasting time.
EU elections need to happen, to give time for a referendum to happen. If there were a new referendum, just watch the bots and trolls.
As for Farage, there is a second thought, if the plan is to break the EU, and looking at the money being plowed into the far right, it might make sense for Farage's paymaster to get him re-elected.
There is plenty of time for a second referendum - the EU have made it clear they would extend for as long as that needed. Yes the euro elections are an issue but that is one that is not insurmountable.
Yes the euro elections are an issue but that is one that is not insurmountable.
IF they legislate to hold them, watch parliament fail to do this. Watch May block it.
"Farage says he'll go on holiday..."
Can we come up with suggestions on where he could go? I'm up for sending him to the surface of the sun.
Why do the media constantly give the tosser air-time?
Rayban / Binners – in most of Europe energy production and distribution are in state hands, ditto railways. Go on – name a single labour policy that is extreme and is not firmly in the social democratic tradition.
You've conviently only mentioned the classic nationalisation of strategic assets.
This
Another part of “democratisation” involves promoting worker control over private businesses. Worker-owned and -managed companies are rare in Britain. Less than 1% of workers are members of co-operatives. Most people do not understand what a co-op is or how to set one up—though they like the look of John Lewis, the retailer owned by its workers, which is often cited by politicians trying to build support for co-ops. (Even David Cameron, a former Conservative prime minister, praised the chain.)
Labour goes further. It has promised to give workers a “right to own”, allowing them the first chance to buy their company if it is sold.
Goes further than any mainstream left wing European party, as politico and Der Spiegel have pointed out in the past it puts them in with the fringe left in Europe.
That policy would be nothing short of a disaster in terms of our ability to trade with the rest of the world.
You haven't managed to counter our other points either, you are just asking questions that you hope we don't know the answer to in an effort to undermine our positions.
There's back good balanced criticism.here