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I’m coming to the same conclusion. The cult of anti-corbynism has got to the point where they’ll risk an ERG lead brexit in order to get rid of him.
Yep, peoples inability to look beyond Brexit and what party could get in is going to keep a Tory party in for a long time.
I’m coming to the same conclusion. The cult of anti-corbynism has got to the point where they’ll risk an ERG lead brexit in order to get rid of him.
What utter twoddle! You really have been drinking the cool aid, haven't you?
The reason I object to Corbyn is exactly because he's actively enabling an ERG led Brexit. And its not a 'cult of anti-corbynism', its absolute exasperation and despair with the actions of the present leader of the labour party*
The party exists to defend the interests of the working classes. Corbyns actions in facilitating Brexit will usher in the greatest assault on the rights of the working people since the Victoran era. If the ERG and the Tory right get their way (which lest we forget, is the default position on March 29th - Thanks for 3-line whipping that one Jezza!), they'll make the skirmishes of the 80's under Thatcher look like a picnic.
The fact that Corbyn and his cabal either can't or won't see this signals a total dereliction of duty IMHO.
* The phrase 'leader of the labour party' is used figuratively in this instance, and in no way implies any actual leadership
To stay in the customs union you have to accept freedom of movement. Corbyn has put this as a red line. You can’t have one without the other
Not true. If the set of red lines given to the EU was different they would come back with a different deal.
Red unicorns, comrade?
The 4 freedoms of the EU are indivisible. Its a simple premise, isn't it. And one the EU absolutely will not compromise on. He won't get a better deal. he'll get the same deal. There's no cherrypicking. Any other belief is pure 'cake and eat it' fantasy
is going to keep a Tory party in for a long time.
If we drop out with no deal, personally I think the Tory party will most likely collapse.
The 4 freedoms of the EU are indivisible. Its a simple premise, isn’t it. And one the EU absolutely will not compromise on. He won’t get a better deal. he’ll get the same deal. There’s no cherrypicking. Any other belief is pure ‘cake and eat it’ fantasy
As I said, not true but you carry on in your own little world.
"The four freedoms are indivisible" is very much the truth, wishing for anything else is just that, wishing.
RBS - we've doubled are profits in the run up to Brexit so it might be bad.
For some people perhaps.
As I said, not true but you carry on in your own little world.
What? The real one? On balance I think thats the best option.
The EU has re-stated that freedom of trade goes hand in hand with freedom of movement - Its both or neither - countless times. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going LA-LA-LA-I'M NOT LISTENING isn't going to change that
The Corbynite idea that if you want the same unrealistic 'cakist' results as Boris Johnson, you just need to ask them a bit of a nicer manner, is pure fantasy, and would end up with us in exactly the same place
“The four freedoms are indivisible” is very much the truth, wishing for anything else is just that, wishing.
Until you actually come up with what you want and discuss with EU you don't know that. They may say they are as a statement to steer what people think they can have (and it has clearly worked) but with the right compromises you will never know what could be done.
What? The real one?
Nope, your world of bitter anti Corbyn filled hate.
Or as we know it...realism
Until you actually come up with what you want and discuss with EU you don’t know that. They may say they are as a statement to steer what people think they can have (and it has clearly worked) but with the right compromises you will never know what could be done.
You are Boris Johnson and I claim my knee-trembler over the desk of your parliamentary office 😀
Maybe Kerley is Barnier in disguise.
Honestly it is beyond a joke now.
Red unicorns, comrade?
The EU have inidicated that the customs union idea is do-able. Why is it unicorns? It really puzzles me that you reject the only sensible pragmatic proposal on the table which has been received positively by the EU. So again, please, what are the other options?
The Corbynite idea that if you want the same unrealistic ‘cakist’ results as Boris Johnson
This is getting silly. Labour party policy is not that far away from May's deal. The only difference is the customs union. The EU have indicated they are willing to talk about a customs union. So a question, if May was willing to shift on the customs union and do a deal with labour, would you support it?
Or as we know it…realism
Or as it's otherwise known, sitting on your backside and sniping from the sidelines
Anyway, I reckon most of us would describe ourselves as realists. We can't all be right.
Maybe, just maybe, Mr Corbyn can see all of what you describe Binners and says "bring it on". Perhaps he sees himself as the new Lenin, ready to lead the workers of the UK on a glorious revolution, but knows that things still aint bad enough yet to kick start that process. Having a ultra hard brexit and a period of ERG led "Provisional Government" is what he views as a necessity in order to finally achieve his ultimate goal.
Worrying times
Edit: God, that moved quick, I was replying to Binners post at the end of the previous page, went for a cuppa and to check the sheep, and finished this post... almost another page in between 🙂
The EU have indicated that the customs union idea is do-able. Why is it unicorns?
Because the first half of the sentence "the customs union idea is do-able...." is followed by the second part of the sentence "....if you accept freedom of movement"
Because the 4 freedoms of the EU are indivisible.As has been stated (and backed up) about twenty million times by the EU.
Dear god! It must be bloody exasperating being an EU negotiator, having to repeat this truism every 5 minutes for 3 years and it's still not sinking in?
This is getting silly. Labour party policy is not that far away from May’s deal.
Yet the bit where it differs - remaining in the customs union - is an enormous issue because.... at the risk of sounding repetitive.... it would mean retaining freedom of movement. The two things are... erm... 'indivisible' (theres that word agin)
Which is exactly why May won't even countenance it. Because her red line is to end freedom of movement. Which is also Jeremy's red line. Ergo....
Corbyn’s primary aim is to hold his party together.
This whole sorry farce is about keeping the Tories together.
Here’s a question…the two party system is ****…but what do you replace it with
Lots of successful countries have a history of broad coalition government. Looking at the current shower of shit running things and in opposition, I’d say that, and PR, is exactly what this country needs.
Sadly we have a matter of days before crashing out of the EU so there seems little time available for a wholesale restructuring of the UK political system. That is something which should have been done decades ago but, as ever, party comes first.
What would you presume if Jacob Rees Mogg started waltzing about in Hugo Boss leathers?
I would presume not to have a clue what kind of point you are trying to make??!!
It's a "Godwinesque" reference.
Good discussion going on here but I had to check whether a CU allows or excludes FOM. Found this......
If the article is accurate and I read it correctly, how does Jeremy plan to execute his CU with no FOM?
I think the comparison with Stalin is unfair both in political and dress terms. This fits better:
/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/300?cb=20150727074641(those were pics of Lenin and his sosie Corby if they'd worked)
Someone mentioned venn diagrams on the thread about the 15-year-old (now 19)Londoner. So I did one. An hour or so of work whilst listening to a TV docu about on-line dating, prostituion honey pots, lying dating agencies etc. CFH will call snooping but all the information is in the fist pages of this thread and any random global warming, immigration, misogynist, petrolhead, road safety or pocket fasco thread.
In the first 35 pages of this thread 78 people declared themselves in or made it clean they were in favour of in. Well in the venn diagram these same people are likely to be in favour of doing something about global warming, respect women, firm but fair on immigration, drive a practical car sensibly, expats and are politicaly centre right or left.
In the 49 outs there are the five of the most rabid petrol heads, a few outspoken macho types, the extremes of left and right but mainly right, the benefits fraud obsessives (the reason for one voting Brexit), the xenophobes, the hanging-is-too-good-for-them types.
There were of course some who didn't give straight answer or didn't know. On the basis of my venn diagrams I've worked out that two ultimately voted in and the rest voted out.
I'd give more detail but don't want to upset the mods or make this place anymore conflictual than it already is. This thread is something of a santuary, the good guys still post, the extremists have made fools of themselves and gone completely or avoid the thread. The leavers who've posted (and made fools of themselves) in recent pages didn't post in the early pages.
The dickery around Brexit seems to be rubbing off on other subjects of debate; dickery is the 'in' social trend.
"Barnier raised the Labour party’s ideas as a way to secure parliament’s support when he dined with the Brexit secretary, Stephen Barclay, on Monday in Brussels, EU sources said."
"When the European council president, Donald Tusk, directly suggested to May last week that Corbyn’s Brexit plan might be a way out of the deadlock, sources said May did not respond."
I remember playing this game of semantics with THM 1000 pages back.. (does everyone remember the free trade agreement vs a free trade agreement?)
Just for clarification. We are currently in "THE Customs Union", which requires freedom of movement.
It is also possible to be in "A Customs Union" (such as the Turkey model) which does not ask for FoM
I read a good piece yesterday about why the Turkey model isn't acceptable to most UK politicians and why it certainly doesn't fix the Irish Border issue unless ALL goods, including agriculture, are included. Without agriculture as a bargaining chip, it will be very difficult for the UK to get free trade agreements with most of the world as the great plan is to allow cheap food imports (a great carrot for the populace) in return for free access for banking and services (great for the city and the rich elite)
Just for clarification. We are currently in “THE Customs Union”, which requires freedom of movement.
It is also possible to be in “A Customs Union” (such as the Turkey model) which does not ask for FoM
I was just about to post this. My understanding is that Corbyn wants out of THE customs union but wants to retain a DIFFERENT customs union. Maybe that one does come with red unicorns attached, I don't know.
And it was all going so well wasn't it. Just a few more houses needed building and insulating which would have been a great boost to an already prosperous economy.
My understanding is that Corbyn wants out of THE customs union but wants to retain a DIFFERENT customs union.
Of course he does, that's the policy after all. I was kind of operating under the assumption that everyone already understood this. Hence why all this frothing about FOM and unicorns is silly. It's illustrative that even though the EU have said they are willing discuss 'A' customs union, some on here have already dismissed it for no apparent reason other than their own inflexibility.
So the question again, a little rephrased (I'll keep asking BTW til someone answers): If the EU after their discussions with Corbyn indicate that a customs union is possible without FOM, will the naysayers then support it?
So far Brexit has cost - £80bn & that doesn't include all the hours people have spent on this thread...
Barnier won't change his mind, Dazh. Because the UK is not going to do what a customs union requires - pay substantial sums of money for the privilege. Corby would suffer the same fate a Lenin if he tried that, and he can't because he not in power.
Too much speculation, not a hint of pragmatism.
Jeremy's CU proposal speech included zero tariffs, as far as I can see the EU would need to include FOM.
indicate that a customs union is possible without FOM
There's been no indication from the EU that they would would negotiate such a deal, has there?
May has one tactic: Run down the clock until there is nothing left but her shitty deal.
Corbyn has one tactic: Let the Tories own Brexit and then blame them for the mess in the hopes of winning an election in the enduing mess.
Both want Brexit.
Everything else is just noise
I'm now also thoroughly confused about my life choices given that I'm a staunchly remain social justice warrior who drives a Focus ST.
Maybe Edukator can tell me where I'm going wrong.
There’s been no indication from the EU that they would would negotiate such a deal, has there?
The only indication is that they are willing to discuss it. They know what the position is, so the fact that they haven't dismissed it out of hand as they have with the backstop changes at least show there's a possibility of a deal. That's not to say it will happen of course, but they should at least try.
But they should at least try.
Yes agreed, given that limiting FOM was in the original treaty anyway. I agree that Labour would come out with a deal more better suited to the vast majority of the population, but time will run out before we get there, and I don't think an extension is possible.
Great, it's sunny and Friday, and yet I've still managed to make myself depressed
OK so here's an idea which avoids the transitional period altogether and avoids the pesky backstop.
1. Revoke A50.
2. Set up a Royal Commission to investigate the ACTUAL advantage/disadvantages of leaving the EU.
3. At the end of the commission period (for sake of argument 2 years), apply the findings.
Maybe Edukator can tell me where I’m going wrong.
The Focus obviously. But you'll grow out of it unless you're bipolar. 😉
Edit: and you didn't even post on the running-over-kids-outside-schools-is-the kids'-fault thread. Call yourself a petrolhead, pfft.
but time will run out before we get there, and I don’t think an extension is possible.
I'm actually pretty relaxed about that. The stakes are so high that they'll agree some sort of deal or extension rather than go over the cliff. The complete breakdown of the western European commercial supply chain will concentrate a few minds, and if there's one thing the EU are masters at, it's last minute deals. 🙂
When did STW turn into piston heads?
Corbyn wants A customs union, not the normal one - i.e. a bespoke deal which would have to include *some* sort of FoM if not complete freedom. He's been over to talk to the EU so I'd assume it was discussed at some level.
And come back with nothing unless you can link something to show otherewise, Molgrips.
Has Corbyn just become more believable than may though to the EU, she now has no negotiating power where's Corbyn at least gives the impression his goalposts can be moved
Eh?
We are talking about the same bloke? The one who hasn't changed his mind about anything since 1971?
So far Brexit has cost – £80bn & that doesn’t include all the hours people have spent on this thread…
These sorts of calculations need to taken with a pinch of salt.
First, the Guardian report is misleading in that it is implies this comes from a Bank of England report, which it doesn't.
Second, it is attempt to calculate what would have happened, had there not been a Brexit vote which involves a fair bit of crystal ball gazing.
Third, the methodology works on the basis of creating an estimated future path based on the weighted average of what happened in a number of other economies. In this instant, I understand the US comprises 50% of weighting of that path. Whilst based on where we appeared to be in the cycle, there is good reason for this. The downside of the approach is the US growth figures are likely to be significantly enhanced by the Trump tax cut, which wouldn't have effected the UK economy in the same way. As noted a few pages ago the UK economy has been more or less in line with the Eurozone in 2018, whilst it lagged in 2017 abit.
So even if you were to take out all the US estimate
its cost us £40bn & all our international credibility
Bargain!!!
when Johnson said F--K business he really did mean it, we're used to the Tories saying F--k the poor, but theyve done a proper number with Brexit
The stakes are so high that they’ll agree some sort of deal or extension rather than go over the cliff.
Steven Baker (arch no-deal leaver and ERG member) was telling the world on the Today programme this morning that his position (and presumably the rest of the ERG's) "...was the only sensible one" Without any hint (that I could discern) of irony. The stakes may be high, but don't underestimate the turbo-nutters obsession with nothing short of a no-deal leave, and remember that May has bowed to their wishes at every turn in order to keep the Tories intact.
I'm less relaxed than you.
So even if you were to take out all the US estimate
No - taking out the US reduces the growth rate to much the same as that experienced in the UK in 2018.
Cant find the figures for Vlieghes method
But this one here using weighting USA as 25% also coems out at 2% of GDP
for 2017 but pre-USA tax cut
https://www.cer.eu/insights/whats-cost-brexit-so-far
Comparing the UK economy to the other economy most damaged by brexit instability (the EU) is rather deceitful as well mefty. And while the US economy has been given an artificial boost by tax breaks and environmental vandalism, it has been equally damaged by trump instigated "trade wars". The 80bn figure is far more accurate than anything the defenders of brexit have come up with.
Do you agree though that if it does come to another General Election that Labour may well have shot themselves in the foot?
At the last GE where the Tories had to get into bed with the DUP, it was a close run thing, but Labour had the support not only of the older red die-hards in the usual Labour hotspots, but there was a huge up-swell in the younger generations turning up to vote and voting Labour because they wanted to see an opposition to the Tories, Corbyn even popped up at Glastonbury! I didn't see a single Labour MP on my doorstep for this or a single pamphlet, what i saw was an outpouring of anti-Tory sentiment on Social media, fueling the younger generations support.
But after time has passed and in many (especially the younger generations) eyes, Corbyn has not got a magic duffelcoat and he seemingly has provided little opposition to the Tories, he is losing their trust (along with mine)..
I personally think he will see the young leave him in droves..
Until you actually come up with what you want and discuss with EU you don’t know that. They may say they are as a statement to steer what people think they can have (and it has clearly worked) but with the right compromises you will never know what could be done.
That's delusional, I'm afraid. It would be harmless too, two years ago when we could have been exploring what the ground rules actually are. But it is dangerous now - because the clock has been run down and notions like this embolden people to keep backing the loonies. The loonies love it, because it does their work for them - I've heard very little of any substance from the ERG about why they want the disruption and in what image they are going to rebuild. This is because they are a disaster capitalist Trojan Horse and are going to reject any deal that is less damaging than No Deal. But the 'easily led' are persuaded to support them time and time again under the delusion that they are the only ones tough enough to negotiate a 'good deal' against the 'bullies'. The tragedy is that they are actually determined to burn this country to achieve their aims and the people who will be worst hit are the ones who support them (in the most part).
Comparing the UK economy to the other economy most damaged by brexit instability (the EU) is rather deceitful as well mefty.
I am not convinced that their numbers are massively impacted, afterall many have said the EU would benefit significantly from Brexit instability as investment was diverted to the continent.
The fundamental point is that there is alot going on in the world economy and there are many reasons why UK growth might be disappointing other than Brexit. The chances of anyone taking that on board on this thread are exceedingly remote however.
I don't think we should be blaming captialists. Business leaders in favour of leave are so few on the ground you can name them, Dyson and Weatherspoon. The people who stand to gain and are the main culprits are tax avoiders and financial speculators in the JRM mould.
The fundamental point is that there is alot going on in the world economy and there are many reasons why UK growth might be disappointing other than Brexit. The chances of anyone taking that on board on this thread are exceedingly remote however.
I don't think anyone's disagreeing there, but the question is whether Brexit has had a positive or negative impact on those growth figures and then quantifying that effect. Unless you're arguing that Brexit has been a boost for the economy (with facts to back that up) we're just disagreeing over how much it's already "cost" the UK.
The chances of anyone taking that on board on this thread are exceedingly remote however.
Well no one is going to take your points seriously if your continue to be so smug, maybe you could demonstrate an ability to stray from your own distorted dogma as an example to us all, we then might take you "facts" more seriously.
I am not convinced that their numbers are massively impacted, afterall many have said the EU would benefit significantly from Brexit instability as investment was diverted to the continent.
Long term vs short term. In the short term no-one knows what's going to happen so investment is withheld.
Direct effect of Brexit on my business.
Many of our banker customers are being moved overseas. That knocks on to the builders and everyone else.
30% tariff on chocolate which is a maybe but the falling pound a definite.
I am better off under Brexit?
No ****ing way.
Yaaaaaay.
Us - Uk trade deal.....
I don’t think anyone’s disagreeing there, but the question is whether Brexit has had a positive or negative impact on those growth figures and then quantifying that effect.
I don't think anyone thinks that this period of uncertainty has been beneficial for the economy, but we do know the economy has proved to be far more resilient than forecast by many before the referendum. I am just wary of the wide spread tendency to blame every bit of underperformance on Brexit and the bandying about of huge numbers when tiny swings cause big changes. In ten years time we may start to have a reasonable idea on the economic impact of the vote, but even then that alone will not determine whether it was a good thing, you will also need to look at the other factors which were at least as responsible for Leave winning.
Yaaaaaay.
Us – Uk trade deal…..
So shredded wheat wont go up then 🙁
Its a suc and fu... deal..
(sucker you in and then ...)
Wait and see what they want for a FTA and see how long this lasts for.
Direct effect of Brexit on my business.
Many of our banker customers are being moved overseas. That knocks on to the builders and everyone else.
30% tariff on chocolate which is a maybe but the falling pound a definite.
I am better off under Brexit?
No **** way.
I've been wondering how its being felt so far elsewhere.
For us Q4 18 and Q1 19 so far have been quiet, the only clients taking on new projects or expanding (typically when we find work) are only doing us because they have to, everyone seems to to be in a wait and see pattern, that's remainers, leavers and 'it's all nonsense' types alike.
'Interestingly' perhaps (because terrifying sounds too much like Hyperbole) we've been warned unofficially that in the event of a no-deal, Microsoft services will likely cease, at least for a time the moment we no longer have a trade deal with the EU because UK services are based there, they may be back quicker if we have a deal with the US, but in the event of us having no deal with either, everything goes off. By services they mean anything that's not a one-off payment purchase, so windows will still work, 365 and Azure services - gone. Again this is unofficial, but MS may allow services to continue for a time unpaid, but they're not even sure if they're allowed to do this legally or whether they simply cannot deal with the UK until we have a trade deal in place.
The maybot will use it has her primary ammo when saying we can still get this deal through ....you can see it now
Wtf is she going back to Europe for now? Best thing they could do is tell her where to go and not to bother till she comes to her senses
Have you got Brexit Derangement Syndrome?
Everyone is talking about it. BDS is London’s most fashionable new affliction.
My colleague Matthew Parris, writing in this week’s Spectator, says in a brilliant piece that Brexit is driving him mad, but he is determined to press on arguing against the project. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown told the BBC’s Daily Politics programme that she has been fighting with people on buses.
But BDS is not restricted to the ultra-Remain side of the argument. Some Leavers have contracted bad cases of BDS.
How can you know if you have BDS? What are the vital warning signs to look out for?
1) Are you a member of the House of Lords?
2) Are you AC Grayling? If you are the tormented philosopher and wild-haired anti-Brexit campaigner, there is a strong possibility that you have contracted BDS.
3) Are you in the furious pro-Brexit Tory MP pressure group the ERG? If you are, leave the ERG before it is too late or lie and say you are busy on the night of their next meeting, then go out to the cinema or to the pub instead where no-one – literally not a soul – is talking about the customs union.
4) How many Brexit bulletin daily emails from newspapers and pressure groups are you signed up to? If the answer is more than three, seek help.
5) Have you ever put an EU flag in your garden or hung it out of your window?
6) Do you know the difference between Max Fac and a Customs Partnership? Are you a hardline Brexiteer who thinks that Max Fac is a real thing, like Father Christmas?
7) Have you somehow convinced yourself that the population at large cares about customs arrangements?
8) Do you find yourself in social situations – at family celebrations, with friends in a restaurant, or in bed with your partner – tweeting about either Jean Claude Juncker or Jacob Rees Mogg? Put… the.. phone… down.
9) Do you find yourself taking the side of Michel Barnier and Jean Claude Juncker, secretly wanting them to punish Britain, and finding this arousing? Does this spill into a vengeful desire for people who voted to leave to lose their job or be burned to a crisp in a house fire caused by a dangerously deregulated post-Brexit washing machine manufactured by leave voters in Doncaster?
10) In everyday conversation are you using any of the following terms – Brexshit, Brexidiots, will of the people, traitors, saboteurs, where’s the £350m?, Remainiac, lying liberal metropolitan elite, Project Smear, join the global race, let the lion roar?
As yet, there is no known cure for BDS, other than leaving the European Union or changing the subject. So, be careful out there. It’s infectious
but there was a huge up-swell in the younger generations turning up to vote and voting Labour
Was there?
Well no one is going to take your points seriously if your continue to be so smug,
Actually I think it's the other way around. There is a definite feeling on this thread of 'we told you so - James O'Brien smugness. This is not yet justified. When someone suggests that things are too complex to extrapolate the consequences of Brexit before we have left seems a reasonable position to me.
Uncertainty is clearly not beneficial though.
Let's assume that whilst the figure isn't £800M a week, that it is certainly a decent percentage of that... so even looking conservatively we could say lets take a round 43.75% of that figure to be the true amount. In other words about £350M per week.... Oh
Actually I think it’s the other way around. There is a definite feeling on this thread of ‘we told you so – James O’Brien smugness. This is not yet justified. When someone suggests that things are too complex to extrapolate the consequences of Brexit before we have left seems a reasonable position to me.
I'll post this again then - https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/brexit-impact-tracker/ actual impact on the country with jobs going. There's also a thread on twitter about this... here...
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1073221524545363973
I'm confused… why did Abbott just share this… considering her current position… on Brexit…?
https://twitter.com/hackneyabbott/status/1096423888626569216?s=21
Preparing for a switcheroo?!?
As I mentioned yesterday, it looks like a new pro Europe party might be emerging, from both sides of the house.
It is a shame really, I would rather have a proper left wing government with the UK in Europe, rather than tory lite. But as brexit is the only game in twon currently, they will get my support.
And I bet they would smash the **** out of ukip in an election.
Actually I think it’s the other way around. There is a definite feeling on this thread of ‘we told you so – James O’Brien smugness. This is not yet justified. When someone suggests that things are too complex to extrapolate the consequences of Brexit before we have left seems a reasonable position to me.
Uncertainty is clearly not beneficial though.
We can just stick to the impact of what has gone on so far.
Research Cuts
Nursing Shortages
EMA Leaves UK
Banks Move Jobs
Auto Industry Cuts and moving of production
Hundreds of millions spent
Delays in actual government
There is a very high risk that we will not have enough staff for key posts in the event of no deal.
Plenty more to go on with there but it's just the tip of the iceberg.
The can't forecast the future line starts to sound like the climate change denial or fake moon landing stuff after a while, just desperate pleas to ignore the bad news.
And I bet they would smash the **** out of ukip in an election.
They would win some seats so yes would smash ukip but likely to be less than their old MPs held.
I think they will find the tribal loyalties is the main reason they got elected.
Although its good to see that they have been busy polling potential constituencies.
I doubt they would have the balls to take on one of those constituencies which voted leave.
One of the facts some of the moderate extremists seem determined to miss, in Labours case, that they represent (in England) most of the most pro remain areas (eg urban middle class and millenials) areas and the most pro-brexit. I am assuming when looking for people to represent they will be looking at Hackney and Stoke Newington constituency rather than Doncaster.
We kept being told that the Labour members were an irrelevance and its the voters who count which is a bit of a problem when two thirds of the Labour seats are pro-Brexit.
I would like Labour to be actively pro second referendum but you have to be a bit dim to realise it really isnt a simple issue and frankly the pros and cons are impossible to figure out without access to a time machine.
Its a shame the "moderates" hadnt spent so much effort attacking Corbyn rather than trying to work with him. As it stands he would be an absolute moron to trust them one inch.
I think they will find the tribal loyalties is the main reason they got elected.
But a huge number of people, including most of the posters on this thread, are sick to death with both sides. So I think they would draw a lot of votes. It'd be interesting.
But a huge number of people, including most of the posters on this thread, are sick to death with both sides. So I think they would draw a lot of votes. It’d be interesting.
Shouting vs Conviction?
are sick to death with both sides
Some shouty people are yes. Although most seem to be moderates/centrists who are a bit bitter they dont have a party which traditionally represents the left or right jumping to their whim whilst ignoring the core voters. That abandoning the core helps the nationalist populists doesnt seem to have occurred to them.
I will be impressed if this new party goes for and carries Doncaster and other leave areas. I strongly suspect though they will carefully chose their seats and win a couple whilst losing most.
Personally I think the two party system is shite but, and its a massive but, we need electoral reform to solve the problem. Unfortunately Clegg the idiot got played by Cameron in terms of choice of alternatives. Its a real shame Cameron didnt show the same skill in the Brexit choices.
That they seem to be wanting to use Lib Dem support whilst not actually joining them I think says quite a lot about their principles.
If you want a centrist remain party you have one.
It is a shame really, I would rather have a proper left wing government with the UK in Europe, rather than tory lite.
I would rather see coalition politics with a healthy centre party.
MSP
Subscriber
And I bet they would smash the **** out of ukip in an election.
The UKIP with no seats?
Looking at the present bunch of incompetent, self-absorbed, Brexiteer buffoons presently occupying both front benches, a new party can’t come soon enough
Right now the choice is would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
Indeed I find myself agreeing with binners again. I imagine we are a pair of grumpy, cynical old buggers. The current shower in Westminster make being grumpy and cynical very easy.
I’m happy to confirm that I’m indeed a grumpy cynical old bugger.
Can I add jaded and despairing to that list?
the guardian graphic is quite fun
Its shows labour have far more rebels over Brexit, while the Tories have fewer but they themselves are divided by degrees of extremity & obviously while labour risk splitting their party the tory rebels risk bringing down their own government
Corbyn famously has many doubters in his own party, but brexit is such a big issue that its blowing up everything.
The irony is that if Corbyn had done what he made such a show of doing & listened to the members, he'd be earnestly pushing for a Peoples Vote & wouldnt be driving away voters, members & now his own MPs
Brexit has been mishandled by the party leaders & its damaging both their parties
We really don't have a two party system.
Indeed I find myself agreeing with binners again.
I would say there anyone who looks at that list of MPs (with a couple of honourable exceptions) and doesnt get rather dubious about their motives really isnt cynical and grumpy enough.
That they dont seem to have the guts to align themselves properly with the Libdems should make any properly cynical person very dubious.
If you want better politics then you need to start with the electoral system.
Ideally you would then also select a party and work within that and by "select" I dont mean chose a party which is only a partial match for your beliefs but has a bigger core vote and try to take it over. Whilst I am not a fan of Macron and do think he did hide many of his true positions at least he actually went for setting up his own party rather than co-opting one.
Looking at it from the Labour perspective.
2/3 of their constituencies voted out.
If they go all out for a second referendum/just revoking it what do you think will happen to their proportion of their vote?
Now you could say they should sacrifice all in order to save the country but if they go into electoral oblivion do you really think the tories will say thanks and rein back their hard right policies or, without opposition, double down on it?
Sure the EU would give some protection but remember, despite claims to the opposite, the UK has been influential on the policies made in the EU.
How long do you think it would take for another push for a referendum bearing in mind how successful the hard right have been in blaming the EU in the past for their lunatic policies?
The irony is that if Corbyn had done what he made such a show of doing & listened to the members
Those would be the members we were being told should be ignored since they werent the actual voters?
Yes he would get some votes pushing for a peoples votes.
However the slight flaw is the gain would mostly be in those Pro remain/Labour areas. He would get hammered in those pro leave/Labour areas.
Do you honestly think the tories would be grateful for being saved from their own stupidity and so concede those areas or do you think they would lie through their teeth and use it as an opportunity to get a large majority and then do all the things Maggie and Blair thought were too nuts?