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good article from Big Tone. It would be great if we could all take a step back and realise where we are, what we're doing, what we look like.
The situation's no different to how it was 2 1/2 years ago, though, we needed to have worked out what we wanted before we boarded the Article 50 train.
Utter dross from Blair, waffle bla bla blurr... dross. The headline doesn't read "the only sensible, practical positive move is to withdraw Art. 50". Anything less is adding to the sea of mealy-mouthed waffle and indcision.
He's the dick who first promised a referendum.
I don't think it's dross. It's waffly because it's trying to say stuff that's already been said in a new way, to spark a moment of clarity in some people who've not been able to see it. None of it's new, except the particular timescales this week.
No disagreeing to your other comment, but can you say a referendum on the EU is his original idea? Seems everyone's had a go at suggesting it from time to time if they've seen some votes in it.
Something tells me the same needs to happen with brexit, although no doubt we’d be stupid enough to vote for collapse.
I thought we had.
She’s in Belfast going blah blah blah. Absolutely nothing she’s saying is dealing with the fact that the E.U. negotiators have repeatedly said the deal signed and is not up for discussion.
Everybody knows that No Deal is preferable to them than altering the backstop.
Does she REALLY think they’re suddenly going to go back on that now, having repeatedly said no? Why the hell would they?
She’s trying to suggest deals made with Eire to the exclusion of the E.U. Eire has already said that as far as they are concerned, they are spoken for and defended by and are a part of, the E.U.
Hopeless. Ridiculous. Useless.
... and as she speaks the £ is down against the € from it’s start today...
She’s in Belfast going blah blah blah. Absolutely nothing she’s saying is dealing with the fact that the E.U. negotiators have repeatedly said the deal signed and is not up for discussion.
I don't know how you can even say tat Wopster, when she's just made this relevant and groundbreaking announcement that is a real game-changer.
From the Guardian site right now....
May says the ties of family and friendship between the UK and Ireland are more important than ever. There is a yearning for a close relationship. That is why she will work with Leo Varadkar, the Irish PM, to achieve this.
She says the Irish government has suggested annual meetings, where both PMs and their ministers could come together to discuss issues.
May floats the prospect of the UK and Ireland staging a joint World Cup bid for 2030, provided the two respective football associations approve the idea.
Ah football, that'll swing it.
I've followed from a far as I have (or had) a few vested interests.
Blair promised a referendum vote on the Euro when he took power. He then just opted out of the Euro zone. I'll admit to finding that irritating.
Then it came to 2004/5 and he promised a referendum on the treaty, then he opted out without consultation. I wasn't bothered, other countries consulted and the result wasn't any different.
Whenever Blair was faced with a decision about the level of EU integration he promised to consult, didn't and took the euro-sceptic option.
He properly pissed off the rest of Europe with the Invasion of Irak.
He now says he'd like another referendum (not really credible given his own record on delivering on referendum promises)
And waffles on and on and on when he could just hammer the simple point:
"Stop Brixit now. Withdraw Art.50 now. Don't let me be the one to say 'told you so'".
Bread and Circuses*
* Bread cannot be guaranteed. Maybe cake?
I'm beginning to worry that the politicians have never actually considered looking for a real solution to the Irish border problem [sensible in a way, as there isn't one] but are only looking for a form of words that they can use to claim there is a solution. So we then leave on May's deal, plus a vapourware addition, and after we've left we stay in the customs union until the UK falls apart, the EU falls apart, the world falls apart or we rejoin the EU on much worse terms.
Apologies if that's been obvious to some of you for ages.
I think leaving the EU will be very damaging, but leaving and remaining in the customs union is even worse. There's a huge amount more to being in the EU than trade agreements for goods, and we're in danger of giving all that up for no benefit.
I wish Blair would STFU!!!
Every time he opens his gob, the leave vote increases
Anyway... Ireland. Everyone knows that the only solution is remaining in the customs union. Everything else is unicorns and magic fairies. May knows this as much as anyone. But she can't/won't vocalise this as the DUP/ERG Axis of Backward immediately goes into meltdown
However, in her endless cowardice, indulgence of these nutters, and total spineless failure to confront them she's happy to deliver economic armageddon instead
Hurray for party politics!!!
May floats the prospect of the UK and Ireland staging a joint World Cup bid for 2030, provided the two respective football associations approve the idea.
How many respective football associations???? Did may actually say two?
anyway kudos to the belfast telegraph for accusing her of "shafting NI".
This is the nearest entrance to the NEC from our hotel.
This is normally full of people selling stuff.
This is is what brexit looks like.
Joint football WC 2030? Count me in!!
The marketing folk have already knocked up an image of what Wembley will look like in post Brexit 2030, as Manchester Engineers go for their 8th consecutive cup win under the management of Lieutenant-Colonel Mourinho (who needless to say is wearing a uniform he designed himself)
May floats the prospect of the UK and Ireland staging a joint World Cup bid for 2030, provided the two respective football associations approve the idea.
We've already got a slogan for that:
'We send £350m a week to the EU. Why not use that to bribe FIFA delegates?'
Mourinho? That must have been taxing for him...
I’m beginning to worry that the politicians have never actually considered looking for a real solution to the Irish border problem
Only beginning to worry? It's been obvious from day 1 that there is no real solution that is compatible with leave on the harder leave side.
but are only looking for a form of words that they can use to claim there is a solution.
Basically Brexit summed up, no detail, no commitments, no plans just wafty statements about how it will be awesome. If anyone told wrote down the likely outcomes of what is being proposed nobody would sign up to it.
Every time he opens his gob, the leave vote increases
In your mind or in reality?
I think leaving the EU will be very damaging, but leaving and remaining in the customs union is even worse. There’s a huge amount more to being in the EU than trade agreements for goods, and we’re in danger of giving all that up for no benefit.
true, you need to be in the SM as well to get all the benefits
leaving the CU is madness tho, FTAs can bring selective benefits to specific areas of trade, but NTBs are apparently the real winner
even more so when you have someone like DFDS Liam Fox trying to get new ones.
Customs union is the minimum to stop Brexit being a disaster - not least because of the Irish Border issue. It's also the minimum play that EU will re-open May's deal for.
May's problem on this is a combination of the Tory lunatic fringe hating any sensible compromise with EU and that CU is the option that Labour are pursuing.
Binners, I'm becoming increasingly bored with you posting pretty much the same post three times per page but credit where it's due "Axis of Backward" is glorious.
Blair's article was full of fluff but I rather liked this summary:
If we stay in the single market and customs union, then the huge interconnection of commercial arrangements that have grown up around 45 years of European membership will remain; but under the European rules.
If by contrast we pull out of them, then the economic disruption as business adjusts to losing the privileged access to a market whose rules govern 60% of our trade, will be large.
Nail, head. We either become rule-takers (so much for 'taking back control' hey) or we set fire to the country.
STOP THE PRESSES! THEY'VE FOUND A SOLUTION, IT'S ALL GOING TO BE OK!
Erm, oh.
Nail, head. We either become rule-takers (so much for ‘taking back control’ hey) or we set fire to the country.
Or we put our hands up and say “Sorry, we know we’ve been stupid, let’s just forget about the whole thing, yeah?”
I’m just so sick of this whole waste of time now. I’ve got ‘grown’ ‘men’ in my office who say “This is why we need Brexit”, then go on to list how they’d like all the homeless people arrested to get them off the street and they’d also like the police to be able to torture ‘confessions’ out of suspects.
The country is largely populated by imbeciles, sorry to say.
They’ll be the first to go crying to teacher when it all goes wrong, which is fine, but I resent being taken down too.
Ask Trump to get involved? Brilliant!
Like we haven't made Brexit a big enough cluster---- on our own without getting Agent Tango involved.
Why don't we just go directly to Putin and ask him what to do?
I'd trust Putin before the Tories and trump
I’ve got ‘grown’ ‘men’ in my office who say “This is why we need Brexit”, then go on to list how they’d like all the homeless people arrested to get them off the street and they’d also like the police to be able to torture ‘confessions’ out of suspects.
Because obviously brexit will fix our homelessness issues, it's totally because we're an EU member.
This is where we've come to. Anything and everything is now the EU's fault (and arguably was before the referendum even). These people don't really want to leave the EU, they just want something - anything - to change, and now they've got a convenient scapegoat.
They’ll be the first to go crying to teacher when it all goes wrong, which is fine, but I resent being taken down too.
If it's any consolation, at least they'll blame you for it when they do.
Your Blair quote is accurate but fails to go far enough, Cougar. He fails to state that the only way to remain a part of the single market is to withdraw Art. 50 and remain.
Throughout the article he fails to state what would be needed to avoid the damge, and in each case the only solution is remain. He fails on a basic level because it isn't clear that the only remedy to the issues he raises is remain, no compromise, no nuances, no weighing the benefits and consequences of other options, remain is the only solution, any type of Brexit is nuances of shit.
Agreed.
Graun headline:
May to meet Juncker on Thursday to seek Brexit concessions
What exactly is she offering in that photo in return? Makes my blood run cold just imagining it. Possibly a replacement mental image for Ben Eltons one about Margaret Thatcher in the shower. Shudder. I see she already has a pearl necklace though......
Because obviously brexit will fix our homelessness issues, it’s totally because we’re an EU member.
You overestimate these people. They don’t want the homelessness issue sorted, they just find its outward manifestation offensive, so the solution is to criminalise the homeless and put them in prison. They are a wunch of bankers. They think that withdrawing from the E.U. will allow us to ‘take control’ and enact such policies.
They are the same nobheads who butt into any conversation about poverty and go on about how they know a bloke who drives his BMW into Leicester city centre, park up, spend the day begging / selling the Big Issue then go home to their four bed detached. I note that they do not like being questioned on whether the supposed criminal mastermind is actually selling the Big Issue or begging. Specifics are not important, apparently, and selling the Big Issue and begging are one and the same anyway.
I try to sit back and not be drawn on this stuff, placing my faith in karma instead.
They also think Trump is a good thing. These are outwardly quite able people in their field (although their main skill seems to be avoiding any real work by being jobsworths and playing people off against each other).
I try not to engage for any reason.
One of my colleagues revealed today that his biggest fear, and why he voted leave, is that he will be stabbed at a bus stop by some men talking in a foreign language. I just didn't know what to say.
. I just didn’t know what to say.
Doesn't really matter just keep talking in foreign languages behind him
I just didn’t know what to say.
Pick up a knife and start talking French?
Unfortunately I'm a talk louder and slower tourist, not an immersive tourist.
Google translate will do all the hard work for you
One of my colleagues revealed today that his biggest fear, and why he voted leave, is that he will be stabbed at a bus stop by some men talking in a foreign language. I just didn’t know what to say.
I'd have gone with "Oui, bien sur."
He's quite right though. When I'm stabbed at a bus stop I want it to be by an honest-to-goodness English speaker. It's only proper.
Chris Grayling has done it again
I think he might actually be the nation's greatest comedy genius
I think he might actually be the nation’s greatest comedy genius
Poor man. As he says if he wasnt such an incompetent idiot prominent brexiteer people wouldnt pick on his mistakes.
In other news. What is it about the brexiteers and their relaxed approach to laws?
The comment from the charity commission is amusing though "IEA risked the public perception that the IEA is politically biased". Now why on earth would people have that perception?
What is it about the brexiteers and their relaxed approach to laws?
Stands to reason really. They're all made by unelected bureaucrats in Germany, remember.
Fox hunting and snare trapping is illegal... Still doesn't stop them, they truly belive they can do what they want.
Fox hunting and snare trapping is illegal… Still doesn’t stop them,
****k me, I loathe Brexit as much as the next person, but let's not be an echo chamber. Is this is our example of Brexiters relaxed attitudes to laws?
I have had plenty of heated debates with city dwelling brexit supporting family members, and I never got the impression that fox hunting and snare trapping laws were at the forefront of their thinking.
Many brexit supporters may be ruddy faced, but I don't know any that have a beagle, a bugle, a ready supply of sloe gin, a 12 bore shotgun and a horse called Misty
A bit reactionary maybe, but my badly made point is that brexiters are much like fox hunters.
We've had examples of snares being set in nature reserves, and toffs poorly attempting to justify them.
It's disgusting..
I guess it's the self entitled attitude I was drawing parallels with. Me me me me me
Me me me me me
❓
They are the same nobheads who butt into any conversation about poverty and go on about how they know a bloke who drives his BMW into Leicester city centre,
Exhibit A: a literal quote from under the Rees-Mogg Common People video on YouTube:
More propaganda, trying to tap into the rich man = bad class war fear, those days are gone, the poor don't follow that carrot so easily anymore, we aren't little toys for the the REAL rich to wind up and play with anytime they like, funny video but thats all it should be taken as no more, you really think the poor can afford to holiday several times a year in their second or third homes abroad a year ? They would be lucky to have a council flat in their own country, thats how much remainers care for the poor.
What the actual?
JRM isn't REAL rich? Really? Estimated £150 million personal wealth. Founded an investment company that looks after funds worth £5.5 billion.
And does anyone actually "think the poor can afford to holiday several times a year in their second or third homes abroad a year"? Of course they can't. They are poor. If they could afford that then, by definition, they would not be poor. I can't afford that and I'm doing reasonably well!
Is he arguing that the poor should be able to afford that and it is just the pesky EU that means they are "lucky to have a council flat in their own country"??
Why was it 'secret'?
Because, if you have a retarded, unworkable idea, you do not want it made public so that people can critique and ridicule it.
See also "we can't tell you what we want to replace EU membership before we trigger the A50 process… we have to keep it secret from those we need to negotiate with."
Because, if you have a retarded, unworkable idea, you do not want it made public so that people can critique and ridicule it.
Nails it!
Bit like Mystic Hunt on R4 earlier in the week (or last week, the sheer quantity of cobblers being spouted makes one day indistinguishable from the next).
Interviewer: What are these alternative arrangements?
Hunt: They are alternative and they are arrangements.
Interviewer: Specifically what are these alternative arrangements?
Hunt: They are alternative and they are arrangements and they are 'technology'.
Interviewer: Specifically what are these technology-based alternative arrangements?
Hunt: I can't tell you - it's a secret.
I had to drive my car whilst listening to this - don't they realise how dangerous it is to drive whilst being convulsed with laughter?
We're just "Playing our cards close to our chest"
We’re just “Playing our cards close to our chest”
Nah - our cards aint even that good...
Tusk has got a better grasp of the situation than anyone I've read or heard on the UK side:
But the facts are unmistakable. At the moment, the pro-Brexit stance of the UK prime minister, and the Leader of the Opposition, rules out this question.
"Today, there is no political force and no effective leadership for Remain. I say this without satisfaction, but you can't argue with the facts."
With the possible exception of Binners.
#votebinners!
Unfortunately that wasn't Tusk's only comment, and while I agree with his "special place in hell" comment, it is bad diplomacy and again another comment from him that just fuels the brexit nutjobs.
Sensible politicians need to find ways of fighting populist messages without falling into the emotive traps that actually play into the populist agendas.
But… what's the plan?
Plenty of people I know who voted for Brexit came around to this opinion before Xmas… they still think we should Leave… but now see that no one leading the campaign, or in a political position and now pushing for Brexit to "respect the referendum result", has presented a plan that works for them… and say they would now vote to stop this (at least for now), given the chance. This is why the "nutjobs", as you put it (they are not representative of all those who voted Leave don't forget) go along with the "no deal" nonsense… what they really mean is that they think we don't need a plan… as they can see there isn't one… and should press ahead without one and just see what pans out.
Tusk will infuriate those pushing for "no deal"… but is that avoidable? On the other hand some of those who voted leave will be nodding along with him… they voted expecting politicans to sort this whole thing to our advantage.
a special place in Hell for those people who support Brexit”
indeed, couldn’t agree more.
Vote for me and everyone will receive their own pet unicorn. Honest! 😀
About as credible as the Brexit pitch from either party. Emma Barnett on Five Live before had someone who maintained they were apparently the Shadow Business Secretary. When asked to clarify the Labour Party's position on Brexit, she reiterated that it hadn't changed. On being elected Jeremy would pop over to Brussels and negotiate a deal that would end freedom of movement, have the UK in A customs union with the EU but not THE customs union, and retain tariff-free access to the single market while not being part of the single market
... and unicorns for everyone.
They also had a labour back-bencher on who stated the bleedin' obvious by describing her own parties position as 'ridiculous'. Apparently Kier Starmer, who does seem to be about the only sane person on either front bench is pressing for the Labour leadership to actually engage with reality and state that we need to remain in the customs union and the single market to retain jobs, and this would mean accepting freedom of movement and continuing to pay in to the EU budget.
While that obviously begs the question 'then why leave at all?" at least it symbolises a novel new approach of a British politician, for the first time in 3 years, who isn't actually living on planet penis
51 days to go and I just blinked.
Entire portfolio is now cash.
At least Tusk has had the balls to say something definitive, not just kick the problem down the road. It's time (actually well past time) May stood up and said two options, crash out or extend / revoke artcile 50, any middle ground deal is dead. Actually I think the only viable options now are crash out or revoke artcile 50, extending it requires 27 other countries to agree and with the way we've behaved I would expect all 27 to agree.
Unfortunately crash out requires nothing, revoke article 50 requires integrity which I don't think May has. We're about to find out what real austerity is not just the Tory lite stuff we had after the banking shambles.
Entire portfolio is now cash
Not sterling I hope 😉
Tusk makes comments that are undiplomatic it's true - but how often do we rail at policitians for not speaking their mind or answering a question straight? At least we know what he thinks (and more importantly the remain door isn't closed), the loons who want to crash out he can't do anything about, it's TMay who has control and their influence is present because she lets it happen.
a special place in Hell for those people who support Brexit”
👏
I did actually let out a cheer when I heard this
Proper crap reporting from the Beeb
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1093146820719591427
This is how it should be reported - I expect more from the BBC
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1093123908390318080
Princejohn if you click through the link in the tweet you shared you'll see that the BBC headline now says..
Donald Tusk: Special place in hell for Brexiteers without a plan
It's reported in the Telegraph and In headlines without the "plan" qualification though
https://twitter.com/MagicMagid/status/1093147708959965185?s=19
Good thread from the Mayor of Sheffield on it all as well.
it~ not the first time that Tusk has spoken clearly about his feeling towards Brexit. and i for one applaud him for it.
one of the few people who seems to have a grasp on what Brexit means for those on both sides of the Channel.
@olddog, the earlier BBCpolitics tweet was indeed simply "Donald Tusk: Special place in hell for Brexiteers" which is a long way from the far more targeted reality of…
"I have been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely"
The BBC tweet (and other reporting by others) suggests he was attacking Brexit supporters, rather than the likes of Boris and Farage.
... which is exactly what the Sky tweet says in the headline and the Telegraph and the Sun. At least the BBC have now corrected.
Yes, I said others have also twisted it.
Not including "those who promoted Brexit", leaves it hanging in the air that he's critizing half of the 2016 electorate. He isn't. He is specifically on about our politicians, and those that bank rolled them.
The sky tweet at least says "those who pushed Brexit", making it far clearer who the words were aimed at.
Tusk makes comments that are undiplomatic it’s true
Why only the other day someone here stopped masturbating about Farage for a minute to tell us he was in fact, “not a diplomat” in what I can only assume was some kind of praise.
I guess the real point is that he felt the need to say something this strong (and was not off the cuff apparently) to make the point that May is wasting everyone's time. He's an astute politician and knows how his comments will be taken and used.
Not sure what his tactic is - the no deal brigade are always going to take as more ammunition for their rhetoric which is worrying, and why I get the sensitivities around how it is reported.
Peter Bone has described Tusk's remark as a "completely outrageous insult".
This will be the Peter Bone who described Van Rompuy (Tusk's predecessor) as having "all the charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk".
I think the word is 'snowflake'.
Driving home the point that there was not, is not, and we're still pretty far from, any semblance of a plan? Driving home the point that the people really pushing for it at this point are increasing rabid 'brexit at all costs' types. Asking TM if that is really how she wants to align?
This will be the Peter Bone
That was farage.
I wouldnt have thought they would be getting upset. After all the only reason to do so is if they didnt have a plan.
The DUP spokesman has responded to Tusk in a calm and measured way (I am still not completely sure it isnt a fake account).
upset fruitcake
I've got pot plants that are brighter than Peter Bone
Princejohn if you click through the link in the tweet you shared you’ll see that the BBC headline now says..
Donald Tusk: Special place in hell for Brexiteers without a plan
It’s reported in the Telegraph and In headlines without the “plan” qualification though
The main news page of the BBC website has updated, but it's still misleading -'Special Place in Hell for no plan Brexiteers' Just using the word Brexiteers which he didn't use makes it sound like it's an attack on the people.
However to be fair the BBC haven't quite got to Leave.EU levels yet...
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1093142336551505921