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There may be some variation in response due to semantics. Of course no deal actually means crashing out in chaos but imo it should mean staying in, ie if we cannot reach an a agreement on a deal then the default "no deal" option should be staying in.
Jesus H. That many people think no deal means we just remain in the EU?!
We are bloody doomed.
Hardly surprising is it? Instead of watching the news there is probably East Enders/coronation street/home and away/towie/some other glib soap about ‘real people’ on instead and let’s face it who wants to watch boring news when there is some adulterous tittle-tattle to watch?
Yesterdays Observer was saying the same. There's a rump of leavers who seem to think that 'no deal' just means everything carries on as normal.
Terrifying that this countries entire economic future has still been left in the hands of liars and frauds at every conceivable level, who are blithley assuring everyone that 'no deal' will be just fine.
The obvious question is, in the event of a no deal crash-out, and the ensuing chaos, how will all those people react when they realise the true extent to which they've been conned?
In the absense of any leadership from May, not all the Tory party is completely unhinged, though it often feels like it. From the Guardian just now:
Richard Harrington, the business minister, has already said he will resign from the government if Theresa May opts for a no-deal Brexit. Other ministers, including some in cabinet, think that same, but Harrington has been the most explicit about this. And this morning, in an interview on the Today programme, he went further. He said a no-deal Brexit (something May has refused to rule out, and something which Tory Brexiters insist would be manageable, if not ideal) would be “an absolute disaster”. Asked what he thought about the prospect, he said:
You said, “Does [the prospect of no deal] bring shivers?” It does bring more than shivers, because I have examined in depth what might happen, I’m part of the government’s plans for Brexit. I’ve seen what may well happen with this cut-off date. Crashing out in my view ... is an absolute disaster. It’s not a road to a free trade agreement, it’s not a road to anything. It’s an absolute disaster for the country and it’s supported by a minority of a minority of people.
Harrington said he was not just worried about the tariffs that would be in place in the event of a no-deal Brexit. He was worried about the impact of friction at the border, particularly on the car industry, which is dependent on just-in-time supply chains. He said he was “afraid” of Jaguar and Mini closing in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Claiming that the UK would be able to manage trading with the EU on WTO terms was “fanciful nonsense”, he said. And he ended the interview saying:
It says on my business card “minister for business and industry”. I’m not prepared to sell business down the river for other people’s political dogma.
Quite alarmed that the brexiters appear to have jumped on the btl comments in the john Harris guardian article. And the refusal to engage or listen to reasoning suggests it's just to goad the guardinistas or whatevs. Talk of the EU 'rabble' and 'totalitarian'EU. Utterly insane
Not sure if this link has been posted before, but the article absolutely nails it
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html
Britain’s rupture with the European Union is proving to be another act of moral dereliction by the country’s rulers. The Brexiteers, pursuing a fantasy of imperial-era strength and self-sufficiency, have repeatedly revealed their hubris, mulishness and ineptitude over the past two years. Though originally a “Remainer,” Prime Minister Theresa May has matched their arrogant obduracy, imposing a patently unworkable timetable of two years on Brexit and laying down red lines that undermined negotiations with Brussels and doomed her deal to resoundingly bipartisan rejection this week in Parliament.
The obvious question is, in the event of a no deal crash-out, and the ensuing chaos, how will all those people react when they realise the true extent to which they’ve been conned?
blame it on jeremy...
The obvious question is, in the event of a no deal crash-out, and the ensuing chaos, how will all those people react when they realise the true extent to which they’ve been conned?
They probably won't put two and two together combined with the Tory government and media convincing them that it was not caused by the no deal brexit. i.e. the gullible will continue to be gullible.
blame it on jeremy…
and there will be plenty of useful idiot "moderates" willing to assist.
I think we have already seen the approach which will be taken. All the talk about traitors and enemies of the people.
It would have been fine apart from those remoaners who stabbed us in the back.
The labour party has lost 150,000+ of their fabled 500,000 membership over the last year due to Corbyns por-Brexit stance. Would they be these 'useful idiot moderates'?
The obvious question is, in the event of a no deal crash-out, and the ensuing chaos, how will all those people react when they realise the true extent to which they’ve been conned?
Had a depressing realisation this morning that the likes of Rees-Mogg don't need to care. They'll carry on blaming and bullshitting, and carry on making money. If we manage to turn the ship around enough to remain, and there's a blood on the streets backlash, they'll be able to blame, bullshit and make money off the repercussions.
There's no incentive on JRM whatsoever to reconcile, to soften the language, to compromise, to stop lying about how great no-deal will be. The nastier it is, the more opportunity he'll have to make money.
fabled 500,000 membership over the last year due to Corbyns por-Brexit stance
That would be the membership who were so unimportant when compared to the voters? The ones in the heartlands who are in favour of brexit. I get confused as to which group is more important.
Also a cursory check shows that claim has been disputed and was in the Sunday Times with unattributed sources. So looks like you are playing a blinder for the hard right press again. Keep up the good work.
. The nastier it is, the more opportunity he’ll have to make money.
Yup. He is following dearest daddies playbook to the letter.
The ones in the heartlands who are in favour of brexit
Care to suggest a single seat in the UK where you think more Labour voters voted Leave than Remain? Placating UKIP and the more unhinged Tory voters in "the North" will not result in a Labour government.
Labour voters at the last election were overwhelming in favour of Remain. No idea what would happen if we had either an election or a referendum now… but pretending that Labour voters have forced the Labour leadership's "position" on Brexit is just an excuse.
I am not a moderate or a centrist, I suspect I am far to the left of any of the gullible morons still defending Jeremy. I can just see that brexit will cause far more pain and suffering than any event in my lifetime.
I can remember as a child the first time I saw my father cry, when one of his friends committed suicide after losing his job as an electrician down the mines, and subsequently separated from his family as he struggled to cope having been cast aside to tory dogma. These kind of stories will be repeated by the thousands maybe tens of thousands in a post brexit britain, and Corbyn has done **** all meaningful to fight it.
Brexit will be far worse than a mere tory government as we have known, it is an alt-right coup that will devastate lives for decades, and may never be recovered from.
Care to suggest a single seat in the UK where you think more Labour voters voted Leave than Remain?
The figures are 60% of Labour constituencies voted leave.
Getting precise figures of the overlap of voters for Labour and brexit doesnt look that easy but some easy examples:
Sunderland, Doncaster and Wakefield all had high brexit votes. So its fairly safe to assume they meet your criteria.
You can also look at the Best for Britain poll which showed a loss of 11% of votes outweighing the potential gain.
Labour voters at the last election were overwhelming in favour of Remain.
Evidence for this please. The members were but as far as I am aware voters were a tad more complex with a slight favour for second referendum.
but pretending that Labour voters have forced the Labour leadership’s “position” on Brexit is just an excuse.
Which will be why the leadership has been threatened with rebellion by some ministers if they even say they want a second referendum. Since those ministers are worried about their constituencies.
Since those ministers are worried about their constituencies.
They are worried about their votes, not their constituencies.
I just can't fathom why they are not out in their constituencies shouting from every rooftop, how they have been lied to and conned by a bunch of posh **** investment bankers looking to profit from their constituencies suffering and misery. Instead they care more about pursuing a policy that will devastate their constituents lives even further just in case they lose some votes, ****ing self serving arseholes are not fit to be labour mp's.
I just can’t fathom why they are not out in their constituencies shouting from every rooftop
Because the chances of that working is pretty minimal.
that will devastate their constituents lives even further just in case they lose some votes
Or to be more charitable (although overall I think it is biased to self preservation) if they do lose the seats then the tories would be able to slash and burn those areas anyway.
If anyone heard Harrington on R4 this morning he managedto remain quite calm as Peter Lilley just spun out so much bollox, Id have been far less polite
Even Nick Robinson was having trouble taking him seriously, when he claimed it was all 'project fear' whipped up by the media & robinson pointed out these were direct quotes from teh boss of JLR & head of Calais port Lilley just started to gibber randon words for a bit
Also very good post by Peston on FB this morning
assuming we delay departure Farage is planning the 'Brexit Party' & would likely clean up and wed be sending an even bigger bunch of UKIP-like clowns to the EU parliament 🙁
Even Nick Robinson was having trouble taking him seriously, when he claimed it was all ‘project fear’ whipped up by the media & robinson pointed out these were direct quotes from teh boss of JLR & head of Calais port Lilley just started to gibber randon words for a bit
It was embarrassing to be honest. It was such a straightforward and obvious point from Nick Robinson. No trap needed to be laid, yet Lilley still sounded like he was on the receiving end of a forensic questioning.
But - what the hell - the core of public support don't listen to R4, so got away with another one.....
Because the chances of that working is pretty minimal.
So instead they will just cede to an alt-right coup? FFS at least go out fighting, if brexit happens it won't matter if they hold onto their little fiefdoms they will have failed their constituents and condemned them without even raising a whimper in opposition.
The only noises that have come out of the Labour Party for the last few days are them complaining about Fiona Bruce being horrid to Dianne on QT. They're still at it this morning.
Well... that and Kier Starmers latest unsuccessful attempt at trying to bounce Corbyn into actually maybe possibly engaging with this whole Brexit thing on any kind of meaningful level
Nice set of priorities there you totally ****ing useless bunch of half-wits
The tory right are ratcheting up the rhetoric to drive the Brexit debate in an ever more extreme direction, and the labour party are just sat back and letting them get on with it, totally unopposed
Kier Starmers
Hasn’t he been replaced by Barry Gardiner?
The labour party has lost 150,000+ of their fabled 500,000 membership over the last year due to Corbyns por-Brexit stance. Would they be these ‘useful idiot moderates’?
Uncritically parroting a disputed and unattributed claim is pretty much the definition of "useful idiot".
The only noises that have come out of the Labour Party for the last few days are them complaining about Fiona Bruce being horrid to Dianne on QT.
Hardly a surprise that, the ball is very much in the court of May and her dysfunctional party. There is only one thing for labour to do, and that's to stand back and watch the show. If it results in a no deal brexit then they'll suffer some fallout, but it will destroy the tories so they may have calculated that it's worth the risk.
Ah, disaster socialism advocacy finally. Love it.
Ah, disaster socialism advocacy finally. Love it.
Not advocacy, just an explanation. My own opinion is that the 'lexit' approach carries far too high a risk of the opposite happening, which is a far right reactionary govt a la Trump taking power in the wake of no deal chaos. The left just isn't strong enough to beat them unfortunately.
However I do think this is where the labour party are right now. More by accident than design though, but they have little option but to hold course and hope it works out. Their only other option is committing electoral suicide and political parties aren't in the habit of doing that.
It's perfect storm of s*** unfortunately on both the tory and labour sides, and I reckon there's only one inevitable destination, which is a no-deal brexit. Our political system just isn't capable of solving a problem like this.
As the economy tanks, with investors and businesses fleaing for the safety of the continent and the streets burn, out of those flames will emerge the brave new phoenix of the UK socialist republic, comrades! With Chairman Jeremy cheered through the streets by a grateful public
Spam and tractors for everybody!
Dim or what?
'We are doomed.
26% of the people Sky asked think "No Deal #Brexit" means we #RemainInTheEU.'
The labour party has lost 150,000+ of their fabled 500,000 membership over the last year due to Corbyns por-Brexit stance. Would they be these ‘useful idiot moderates’?
Laughable that you've turned an 'according to reports' - to an absolute fact.
Care to suggest a single seat in the UK where you think more Labour voters voted Leave than Remain?
In my own constituency Bassetlaw.
And I would argue neighboring Mansfield too - though they had a shift to the Tories in 2017 but it is a tiny Tory 'majority'. But they would've been Labour in 2016.
So that's two on my doorstep.
I'm sure membership is holding steady, and its all a capitalist plot to undermine the upcoming socialist republic. And that's what matter here. That and people being beastly to Dianne. That's not on, either
Any other business comrades...?
So instead they will just cede to an alt-right coup?
No because it is a catch 22. If they stop the hard right coup on brexit then they will be potentially so weakened that the hard right coup would go ahead anyway.
Especially with people willing to repeat hard right news sources as fact in any old attempt to attack the current Labour leadership in order to try and return to the dreamtime when labour was chasing tories rightwards in order to court the swing voters and effectively telling their core voters to sod off.
Any other business comrades…?
Membership of the Tory party is ... laughable.
Alastair Campbell for prime-minister eh?
Membership of the Tory party is … laughable.
It is, but please don't get in the way of Binners posting his silly pictures again, because they make him feel superior to people who actually bother to join Labour.
Aah there we go - I was missing those Life of Brian pictures. Good old binners, finger on the pulse as ever!
It's cleverer than you think because John Cleese is leaving the UK isn't he?
Even if he doesn't really live hear anyway.
And double funny because he backed EU leave in 2016.
Nice one Binman.
out of those flames will emerge the brave new phoenix of the UK socialist republic
Hardly. What we will (probably) have though is a tory party split into two, which pretty much hands labour power forever assuming they can hold together themselves. The question for the labour party is whether that prize is worth the hassle of governing a country in a no deal scenario?
The question for the labour party is whether that prize is worth the hassle of governing a country in a no deal scenario?
Hang, draw and quarter me but I can deal with Labour & no EU - but not Tories & no EU.
George Osborne in Evening Standard
As it happens, however, I understand why [Jeremy] Corbyn doesn’t want to enter talks with Theresa May. It’s all been a short-lived Downing Street stunt. The prime minister all but confirmed that on the call to the cabinet last night that was leaked.
She will never make the move needed to win over substantial cross-party support for a Brexit deal, because it would further rupture the Conservatives.
I predict that when the crunch comes she’ll put her party first, and that means she would favour a no-deal Brexit before no Brexit. Of course, parliament may well overrule her — as we’ll see this week.
Hang, draw and quarter me but I can deal with Labour & no EU – but not Tories & no EU.
Im not sure that it will work out that well for the ex-employees of JLR, BMW, Toyota, Airbus, Phillips Avent etc etc etc
who end up on the dole thanks to a Tory hard brexit
Today's tale of an under cover gammon.
Speaking to a very nice and helpful lady in Mr Farage's office today.
She thinks that there is a flat 10% on everything with the WTO. On hearing about the 30% chocolate tariff she said "they are even worse than the eu" and said that I should contact my mep.
She has forwarded my concerns to my local mep. Let's see what happens.
She couldn't have been more helpful just totally uninformed.
Corbyn could easily have gone in to the talks & come out & said that May wouldnt budge on her red-lines (which we know she wont)
who end up on the dole thanks to a Tory hard brexit
That's why I said Tories & NO EU is the worst combo.
Lot of people on the dole in my area already though.
Im not sure that it will work out that well for the ex-employees of JLR, BMW, Toyota, Airbus, Phillips Avent etc etc etc
who end up on the dole thanks to a Tory hard brexit
They'll be fine once all the immigrants have been kicked out
That fruit's not going to pick itself
because they make him feel superior to people who actually bother to join Labour.
I am confused though. I thought the pictures and accompanying primary school insults were supposed to indicate that members of Labour were now a cult which should be ignored. However it seems now that suddenly thats not the case and the drop in membership* shows that membership is suddenly important.
Its all very confusing.
Maybe now he could join the Labour party and bring it back to glory under his leadership following the policies of something or another. It would liven up question time with the response to questions being a frantic search through some photos and then holding one up. Bit crap for radio though.
*terms and conditions apply. Membership may go down as well as up depending on whether who you believe.
So, another announcement at 15:30 today.
The press is saying she's hoping to find a way to appease the ERG and the dreaded DUP, maybe she will, maybe so won't. The DUP are often seen as being 'for sale', but equally I'm sure they know they've never been as relevant to Westminster before and likely never will be again and the ERG won't be happy until one of their own is in No10.
Would it help though? Anything that appeases them is only going to displease the rest of the House (well... all things being equal) there's 62 hardcore Tories and 10 DUP MPs who want different things and 158 other MPs who, presumably want closer links with the EU.
Would it help though? Anything that appeases them is only going to displease the rest of the House
It will waste some more time.
The ERG will never be appeased. Thats why they've managed to move the agenda further and further to the right over the last 2 years. She's caved in to every single one of their demands. Her red lines aren't really her red lines at all, they're the ERGs. They've dictated this whiole thing from day one.
And every time she's caved into them, they've howled how she's not gone far enough, and is 'betraying brexit' blah blah blah... and demand more
This time will be no different. I can't see anything other than No Deal now. Because thats what the ERG want, and whatever the ERG want, they get
Lot of people on the dole in my area already though.
After brexit long term unemployed will be off the dole, and into a glorious modern 21st century workhouse that make foxconn work conditions look like paradise. G4S shareholders will be happy though.
After brexit long term unemployed will be off the dole, and into a glorious modern 21st century workhouse that make foxconn work conditions look like paradise. G4S shareholders will be happy though.
Well, that's what they voted for - "will of the people" and all that.
sounds like Cameron was lining the Lib Dems up for the fall then, what a **** *
After brexit long term unemployed will be off the dole, and into a glorious modern 21st century workhouse that make foxconn work conditions look like paradise. G4S shareholders will be happy though
That depends on what our governments do to rebuild things.
We've had big industry collapse before.
I predict that when the crunch comes she’ll put her party first, and that means she would favour a no-deal Brexit before no Brexit. Of course, parliament may well overrule her — as we’ll see this week.
Well maybe she is moar cleverer than I thought. She might just be banking on parliament blocking no deal so we end up remaining, but then it's parliament's fault not hers or the tories. Or is that too much cleverness?
That depends on what our governments do to rebuild things.
We’ve had big industry collapse before.
Well in the 80's when the old industries collapsed, the government of the time failed to invest in the areas most affected when they could have, and that has lead to the disillusion that created the victory for brexit. After brexit they won't be able to.
And besides we are talking about areas that haven't recovered from the 80's, it is nothing to do with a new industrial collapse, the finance will just not be there to even maintain the current welfare state, for what it has become never mind what it should be.
So far, Plan B seems remarkably similar to Plan A. Quelle surprise.
and still trying to pander to the lunatic fringe of the ERG and DUP instead of the majority.
Good to see her using the hard right line about a third referendum being undemocratic.
Its amazing how it became such when the brexit elite won as opposed to prior to the win.
As for loss of social cohesion. Is she even more deluded than I thought?
Is it groundhog day? She's just repeating her statement from last week, word for word
Is it groundhog day?
You'll be delighted to know that someone else agrees with you.
May is going back to the EU to get concessions on the Irish backstop. What is the difference between a concession and a legal assurance? He says May tried this before Christmas. “This really does feel like Groundhog Day.” said Jeremy Corbyn, 15 minutes ago.
And by waving the 65 pounds fees for European, she is going to piss the Erg off again. 😂😂
she is going to piss the Erg off again
nah Rees-Mogg gave her permission to do that. Looks like a bit of concession but is sod all in the greater scheme of things.
Not really, have a read of the comments on news websites, it is hilarious.
have a read of the comments on news websites,
Thats not the ERG though. It might be some of the poor saps who think the ERG and co cares about them and isnt going to screw them over but it definitely aint the brexit elite.
Most of whom are in favour of continuing immigration with a thin veneer of claiming to want to restrict it.
I sense the faint whiff of the Lexit case for ending FoM.
For once and for all!!
I'm starting to feel that May wants a no deal Brexit like the ERG. And that they are simply playing this game so they can plausibly deny that this is what they wanted when the economy tanks in the short to medium term.
I’m starting to feel that when May and her government works out what it wants there will probably be a parade.
Yep, I think May campaigned for remain pre referendum because she expected that to be the winning side, when remain lost she flipped to the other side. Typical tory mentality of winner takes all and **** everyone else, not even attempting to understand how close it was and the reasons behind the way people voted. Now she is just incapable of understanding why everyone else doesn't see it that way, that some want to actually protect the country from suicide.
It’s all so ****ed up, but what is even worse......it was never going to be any different.
Time is nearly up Theresa. Your choice.
You are either going to be the politician who actively delivers the worst financial catastrophe since the Great Depression as an actual policy and condemn us to lord knows what political extremism further down the line.
Or. You can grow a conscience and stand up to the bullies, thugs, louts and crooks.
This has little to do with the EU as well pointed out numerous times.
Tick........tock.
Sadly, I think she’s so craven to the idea that conservatism is always right that she might actually take us over the cliff.
I love that there's speculation that this brinkmanship (is that the right word?) is either running down the clock 'cause she's a nasty ERGomaniac or because she wants to Remain but wants to make it look like she doesn't.
Nobody knows what's going on in her head.
I’m starting to feel that May wants a no deal Brexit like the ERG
Thats pretty much where I am now too. They've held her hostage for so long that she's developed Stockholm Syndrome. I think she now so detatched from reality she actually believes their rubbish.
I can't see anything else now other than a proper catastrophic crash out that the ERG and all the gammons will rejoice at.
Just on a practical level, as this looks like how its going to go, hows everyone spending the fateful day?
We've booked our Brexit break. We're heading off to Snowdonia for a week on the 28th March. If it all goes to shit, which looks the most likely outcome, we're going to be well out of the way up a mountain somewhere, watching the world burn. I've obviously been stockpiling my tins of spam to take with us, but I haven't procured any firearms to protect my spam stash. Perhaps I should? I'm thinking a version of 28 Days Later
Whats everyone else up to? Any plans?
Good analysis there on the BBC.....
"Whats everyone else up to? Any plans?"
At a guess (as all leave has been refused)
the people have willed that they no longer wish to pay taxes to support shit they dont want
long live the will of the people
At a guess (as all leave has been refused)
But which side of the line will you be on?
Another good analysis from Mitch Ben:
I’m starting to feel that May wants a no deal Brexit like the ERG
Remember she hates the ECHR and leaving that isnt easy if still tied to the EU.
how can anyone seriously think this is about politics and democracy and not just a corporate take over of the UK?
I think the only way we can remain without gammongeddon (if that’s not been used before I’m copywriting it) is if her Maj steps in, the gammons would never go against her
“The Brextremists will get angry if we don’t do it” is the worst possible argument in favour of Brexit, for the simple reason that the Brextremists are going to be angry whatever happens.
Exactly! They will never ever be satisfied. They're not happy unless they're gobbing off about something, with a head like an angry tomato!
I hate to quote Dave, who should have known better than deliver us all into this nightmare, as he once described the Tory Brexiteers as 'people who won't take yes for an answer'
I wouldn't be too worried about the gammons rioting though. Half of them wouldn't as it would involve leaving the pub, and the other half would have to do it on their mobility scooters
The last few days I have seriously been contemplating whether a removal of May from office by men in grey suits, was in fact a possible or even a likely scenario.
I'm talking a knock on the door and a quiet chat. Or possibly more. In the current crisis, and it is a crisis, it doesn't seem implausible anymore.
Whats everyone else up to? Any plans?
Flying back from Geneva to Edinburgh. Landing 5 minutes before we leave the EU.
I can't see any possible problem.