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Can we guess how many trade deals Fox has signed?
I’m guessing zero, and even if the answer isn’t ‘zero’ I will wager that they are of the ilk of selling sand to Libya.
Liam Fox is a lucky man. If Grayling wasn’t there as Alpha Tosser, he would be shown to be 99% as incompetent and untruthful.
Alongside reducing capital mobility
Oh good… once we've made it harder for goods to move, and for people to move, and for services to move… let's also make it harder for capital to move.
"Britain First".
Protectionist isolationist bollocks.
As somebody who has never voted or showed interest before in this pantomime, if it ever goes to another vote or option I’m voting leave. The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government
Umm. Power of reasoning is not great here.
We, ive yet to hear a compelling argument for leaving, so no I have not changed my mind! 😉
Oh look - more lies from Boris the Brexit poster boy:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119
'Mr Johnson's spokesman declined to comment' 🙂
We, ive yet to hear a compelling argument for leaving, so no I have not changed my mind!
You won’t.
There aren’t any.
It is a self-inflicted abomination and all the frantic attempts to rebadge a racist/xenophobic/envious tantrum are just glitter on a turd.
There is a little corner of me that thinks “actually **** the Leavers, give them their Brexit and all the pain that it will bring”.
Unlike the Leavers, though, I don’t wish to harm my own or my children’s future just to spite someone else in the hope it will hurt them more.
if you dont believe the abject stupidity of some then watch this
she says she was only trying to put a positive spin on it...the daft cow
not sure if it was covered may has gone back to the EU with the exact same st of demands....how in christs name does that work....is it an if i ask enough times they will pity me and go "ok then"
She's a sack of waxy shit that's been left too close to a radiator.
Are you seriously suggesting that one 30% rise didn’t hurt
Not at all, but hurting isn't the same as sure fire death. Don't get me wrong the first 30% hurt me like hell, not least as it was similarly timed to a dollar slide for the Euro and my product is euro bought product of a dollar traded commodity. My point, poorly made, is as much as it's going to be rubbish it isn't actually going to be the end of the world.
Re the various responses about my choice of left wing governments sorry if my point was poorly made. Economic impacts or otherwise aside, my point is left isn't the saviour of all that's good in terms of your human rights. Norway (and the Nordics in general would be good examples of states which do advance your personal well-being but I'd argue that's not through left wing benevolence but hard capitalism -I'd also argue that austerity really isn't a right wing policy at all as it really doesn't fit with a capitalist gdp growth led agenda but that one at least is a point for another thread or a pm, I'll pick up the Nordics in brief below)
They might sing to a different tune but it's the self same song. History teaches us 1 thing, government is rarely good for the governed. (And imho it's only ever good as a by product)
the UK in its current form is less than 100 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
What do you call this civil war?
I'm going to lump these together on the basis i assume they're about much they same thing (sorry if they're not). The partition of Ireland from it's 19th century status as part of the UK and the subsequent persecution of Catholics in NI resulting in the troubles really isn't full scale nation changing turmoil, in the same way scottish independence isn't either. It's localised dissent which is by and large dealt with very badly but it's not widespread political upheaval on the scale of say the Spanish civil war, the French Revolution, the wars of unification in Italy or Germany or the collapse of the monarchy of the Netherlands. (Edit a better comparison for the fracturing of a state would be Yugoslavia in the 90s.) These are events which have changed wholesale the fabric and social structure of complete nations. We simply haven't had that sort of upheaval. We have had various localised problems (and if you're going to get picky over the "form" of the UK you could comfortably suggest we've only had our current form since 97 and the hand over of Hong Kong, why go back 100 years) such as the partition of Ireland and the Manx rebellion. They're hugely important in British history but they're not really defining in the way the war of the roses was. I'd imagine (feel free to correct me if you've any even tenuous info) that unless you lived (or were posted) in the directly effected areas you'd not have known either of those was happening (edit: other than as news paper stories). The same isn't true of the civil war or glorious revolution here, the civil war in Spain, the collapse of Napoleonic France, the unification of Germany, the pre ww1 revolutions/uprisings in Russian eastern Europe. It's a long list but we in the UK are in a small number that haven't seen complete social and political change in the course of a few '00 years.
There's been significant incremental change over the years of course, universal sufferage, women to own land the formation of a national army and police force, the NHS, the collapse of the liberal party but nothing in the scale of nationwide civil action that the rest of Europe has seen.
Re Norway/Nordics being left wing.
Not really no, i think the Nordics are largely benevolent [s]right wing[/s](edit right of centre) governance. I don't believe that anything they have done as governments has been soley for the benefit of the "persons of society" first and any economic benefit second. I think the reduced working hours are intended to improve employment, the increased basic wage to ensure and raise disposable income and create greater tax returns and profitability for business. To that extent I'm truly cynical I'm afraid and that's partly personal outlook: you don't get that many millionaires by accident.
latest Yougov poll
Remain: 48
Leave: 38
Would not vote: 6
Don't know: 7
Skipped: 1
equates to a 12 point lead if you exclude non voters and undecided 56 - 44
As somebody who has never voted or showed interest before in this pantomime, if it ever goes to another vote or option I’m voting leave.
Might I respectfully suggest that you address the former before concluding the latter?
The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government.
So your response is to want to hand them absolute power?
My point, poorly made, is as much as it’s going to be rubbish it isn’t actually going to be the end of the world.
Ok so whenever it's rubbish people lose jobs and businesses. What's going to happen if unemployment hits 10%? And our GDP slides 6%? The world won't end but things will be very very shit. Not sure your point really.
Not sure your point really
That this is just as ridiculous and hyperbolic as suggesting we'll all be better off on brexit day +1.
rather than waiting to go out of business due to a no deal should I just get on with it?
Ok so whenever it’s rubbish people lose jobs and businesses. What’s going to happen if unemployment hits 10%? And our GDP slides 6%? The world won’t end but things will be very very shit. Not sure your point really.
It doesn’t end but it does end up getting pretty rough, rememember “giz us a job”.
It may be bad now but that was a shit time and no deal will be shit.
Well apart from the fact that Brexit will be over and done so we won’t have to hear about it anymore 🙂
if you dont believe the abject stupidity of some then watch this
she says she was only trying to put a positive spin on it…the daft cow
”
That is pretty much unbelievable !!!!!
I’m with Cougar on the whole handing them absolute power thing, it sets the stage up for future actors to do carte Blanche.
On the exchange rate issue:
https://www.onvista.de/devisen/Euro-Pfund-EUR-GBP
Click on 10 year then MAX and you'll seen that the pound is within its 20-year trading range. It's still trading at hasn't-happened-yet levels.
Norway is a well-managed oil state, Sweden is a working version of France, Denmark is a puritan version of Germany, Finland is a forest with lakes. The UK is more and more America bis., and not in a good way.
A leaked poll shows that Labour would lose votes if they try to stop Brexit.
Slightly misleading, they would lose 11% of current labour voters, but gain 9% of current tory voters said they would switch to labour, and 30-40% of liberal and green voters. That is from a sample of only 2000, and doesn't go into "real" numbers, but I would suggest if those figures were extrapolated to the voting population it would be a net gain, or at least nuetral.
Slightly misleading, they would lose 11% of current labour voters, but gain 9% of current tory voters said they would switch to labour, and 30-40% of liberal and green voters. That is from a sample of only 2000, and doesn’t go into “real” numbers, but I would suggest if those figures were extrapolated to the voting population it would be a net gain, or at least nuetral.
No way of knowing until an actual election and only important in a small number of constituencies that are close. Won't make much difference in my 65% Tory, 20% Labour constituency will it.
The key point is they can't actually stop Brexit as they haven't been asked. If they are asked and stop it another election could be 3 years away where it would be forgotten by a lot of the sort of people who switch at the drop of a hat.
It says that overall, a quarter would be more likely to vote Labour and a third less likely. The rest don't know.
No way of knowing until an actual election and only important in a small number of constituencies that are close
Not only that but depending on where those specific shifts are, thanks to FPtP there is no reason you can't secure a majority in the house on a lower % of votes than not only before but also lower than the opposition in the same election
I wish politicians would try to convince me what they believe is correct, rather than that we agree when we don’t. Policy set by focus groups is not real policy, just vote chasing.
I wish politicians would try to convince me what they believe is correct
The problem with this whole process is that its ruthlessly exposed the problem that caused the whole thing in the first place.... just how utterly detatched Westminster is from the country as a whole
May hasn't given a stuff about reaching out to anyone, or explaining or justifying what she's doing. All that has been priority is holding the Tory party together. And every statement by most Tory MPs is them just lining up their leadership bids.
The Labour party is little btetter, with Corbyn and his cabal plotting how to get into government, at whatever cost with little interest in the opinions of their own MP's, party members, and certainly not the public.
Whats best for the country's future seems of very little consequence to any of them
Its more like some dysfunctional medievel court than a modern democracy. And this is what a lot of Brexit voters are kicking against. A fact that seems to have gone completely unnoticed in the Westmister bubble
I've posted this a couple of pages earlier, but its an interesting take from Fintan O'Toole on this being the death throws of this present form of Parliametary democracy
Apart from some awful vocal brexit break-beats - a really decent intellectual (non-gammon) look at the future of Labour/Brexit/EU future situation
A serious upgrade over Question time.
Thoughts?
at whatever cost with little interest in the opinions of their own MP’s, party members,and certainly not the public.
Perhaps you should try rereading the comments above yours particularly with reference to the likelihood of peoples opinion of labour being influenced by the stance they take.
I do find it entertaining after all the frothing and ranting about the labour membership not being important compared to the voters as a whole suddenly it gets reversed.
Its almost like there is an agenda.
A fact that seems to have gone completely unnoticed in the Westmister bubble
The problem is when labour did propose policies to deal with it all the "moderates" ranted and raved and said how it was more important to chase the "centrists" voters.
Cheers will have a listen
Meanwhile the reality of what brexit will bring us...
With the polls suggesting labour can't win over brexit, I can expect a Tory government for a long time
The QT audience in Derby a once labour heartland rapturously applauding a hard right, deregulator wet dream come true, No Deal brexit, just shows the impossibility of this.
Any sort of socialist brexit looks farther away than ever
A serious upgrade over Question time.
Thoughts?
Is it any different to the fantasy we commented on a couple of pages back? Is it even possible if you don't have a 100 seat solid labour majority?
Mike - why be so dismissive?
The debate in question is much greater than leave or stay, or even a sarcastic comment.
All that's happening is we all end up (being quite left on here)is diluting the idea of social justice and equality and we let the Tories trample over everything.
The QT audience in Derby a once labour heartland rapturously applauding a hard right No Deal brexit, deregulation wet dream come true
That was a terrible session.
The poll comments were completely out of order.
But yeah, reality.
It won't just be the human rights act. That'll just be the start. If the Tory's get away with this, then free from the EU its going to be open season on all sorts of things we presently take for granted.
Workers rights? Think they're going to last long?
Environmental regulations? They'll be straight out of the window.
This whole thing is a power grab by the far right. I'm sure that behind the scenes they're already got planned the timetable for tearing up the entire post-war settlement
This whole thing is a power grab by the far right. I’m sure that behind the scenes they’re already got planned the timetable for tearing up the entire post-war settlement
Agreed.
This was either a masterstroke or pot luck by the Tories.
I don't know which.
Mike – why be so dismissive?
The debate in question is much greater than leave or stay, or even a sarcastic comment.
Because
a) we did this one before
B) unless you get a labour majority who backs this from day 1 it's a pure fantasy.
C) are Labour even proposing this or is it not even close to the table?
In the last look at her ideas it was shown there is still a heap of stuff the UK government can do while being in the eu to address issues. That has a much better chance of happening than a blow it up and gamble approach.
Well apart from the fact that Brexit will be over and done so we won’t have to hear about it anymore
Like hell it will.
I wish!
Whatever happens on March 29th is just the end of the beginning.
This has totally split the nation to such a degree that this will total dominate the agenda for the next decade, at least.
Remember, we’re all just guessing as to what the actual fallout from this will be.
And the politicians are fighting like rats in a sack for a reason. They all want the ‘opportunity’ to shape the post-Brexit agenda in their own image
This isn’t even the end of chapter one
This has totally split the nation to such a degree that this will total dominate the agenda for the next decade, at least.
Most people were not that bothered before the referendum and those same people won't be bothered after a few years. The people that are really into it will just go back to UKIP.
I’d love that to be the case but that’s hopelessly wishful thinking.
This has unleashed all kinds of really toxic shit that won’t simply be put back in its box
We don’t know what’s going to happen, but is guaranteed is that it will be an upheaval like we’ve never seen in our lifetimes, and the law of unintended consequences will kick in big time
I can see us in a situation where two years down the line the agenda is being dominated by something that nobody has even considered yet.
It’s Pandora’s box is Brexit.
I Never really got why people are so anti ECHR.
It secures, first and foremost, the right to life, a fair trial, freedom of expression, thought, conscience and religion, but also respect for private and family life and the protection of property. It prohibits torture, degrading treatment, forced labour, unlawful detention and discrimination "in the enjoyment of the rights and freedoms" it guarantees.
I really can’t see that as being a bad thing and I find it strange why people are so against it.
You’re looking for logic where there isn’t any.
The Tory right probably want rid of it so they can bring back hanging
I really can’t see that as being a bad thing and I find it strange why people are so against it.
Because generally home secs want to do things that are popular with right wingers which the rest of us object to, it's framed as curtailing our parliament. A lot of people struggle to accept that you can't just pick and choose your laws and how to apply them.
No. Those who have the least to lose from brexit (arguably the bulk of the 52%) may not be that bothered, other than by a continuing shit deal out of life. But hey, they're used to that. The 48% who voted to remain, are unlikely to just sit back and accept an enforced drop in their quality of life and will continue to press for a reversal of the decision. It will not just go away. As above, the fall out will continue for decades....
Ok serious question to the farmers out there,what happens in 8 weeks when there’s no more cheques from the EU, Is everything already in place or are you none the wiser?
Ok serious question to the farmers out there,what happens in 8 weeks when there’s no more cheques from the EU, Is everything already in place or are you none the wiser?
Same as everybody else nobody knows. My dad has been writing to his local MP who is a brexit loon, plenty here know leave is a bad thing.
Ok serious question to the farmers out there,what happens in 8 weeks when there’s no more cheques from the EU, Is everything already in place or are you none the wiser?
Haha, seriously? No one has the faintest idea and no plan B. Gove has made vague assurances that the current system will continue till 2020 at least, just being paid by UK direct and not via the EU. There has been some pretty heavy consultation exercises by the devolved administrations (farming policy is a devolved issue) but not heard back from the Welsh Assembly what the results of that were. Luckily the basic payments are made in December so there wouldn't be anything to expect for a good 8 months so hopefully enough time for a stop-gap policy to be implemented. A bigger issue will be a collapse of exports as a result of WTO tariffs (may be offset to an extent if the pound tanks further making exports cheaper!). The other big worry is that developing nations can't afford UK ag produce prices but can sell us cheaper food in return for stuff they can't yet produce like hi-tech, pharma, and financial services. Can anyone guess what the basis of any future trade deals are going to be and which UK industry is likely to lose out the most? But never mind, at least we can re-wild the British countryside and all those rich bankers can come and buy themselves a nice abandoned farm in the countryside !
but is guaranteed is that it will be an upheaval like we’ve never seen in our lifetimes
I’m not sure I’m thinking prices will rise,wages drop and increase in unemployment which seems pretty much a repeat of the 70’ and 80’s.
This was either a masterstroke or pot luck by the Tories.
I don’t know which.
You're joking surely? Why on Earth do you think the far right want us out? It's certainly not for the benefit of the common man.
Can anyone guess what the basis of any future trade deals are going to be and which UK industry is likely to lose out the most? But never mind, at least we can re-wild the British countryside and all those rich bankers can come and buy themselves a nice abandoned farm in the countryside !
..and the rest of us can feast heartily on chlorinated chicken.
You’re joking surely?
I think it was more about the damage to Labour.
Which I think is a happy chance. Although something the hard right wont be upset about. That said they would be happy enough to destroy the tories as well and do as much damage across the board as possible. Whilst I wasnt convinced by the Shock doctrine orginally the idea of disaster capitalism does seem more and more supported over time.
You know that Rees Mogg’s dad was the leading advocate of Disaster Capitalism, right?
For the last ten years the Tory’s have followed the Shock Doctine as a blueprint. All we need for the full set is the civil disorder and Marshall Law and troops on the streets
Give it 6 months
Never waste a good crisis! Especially one you manufactured
Liz Kershaw. I always switched her off as I thought she was singularly unsuited to her role. Now I have a reason to actively dislike her. Every cloud....
I think we can all assume that Liz Kershaw has ‘lost her audience’
She’s clearly an absolute ***ing moron .. and Brexit supporter.
There’s a pattern emerging
ou know that Rees Mogg’s dad was the leading advocate of Disaster Capitalism, right?
Yup. Like I said the theory makes more and more sense as time goes on.
For the last ten years the Tory’s have followed the Shock Doctine as a blueprint.
Some tories not all. Some have tried to keep to good old fashioned tory traits. Sadly though the hard right seem to be winning.
Marshall Law and troops on the streets
Generally they try to stay short of that. Not out of any niceness but just because although massive profits can be realise so can massive losses including, for any not clever enough not to live in the country they are doing over, their lives.
DEFRA models are 25% of farmers go bust, Savilles are predicting farm land prices crashing, my employer has issued instructions to watch customers and credit terms, and is tightening expenditure.
What you have to remember is that a large proportion of farm inputs are imported. soya, chems etc.
Car bomb in Derry tonight.
Remember them?
I really miss sectarian violence and paramilitary militias. It was brilliant! Glad to see it making a comeback
Nothing to do with Brexit, obviously. Just coincidence that something we’ve not seen for twenty years reappears when the government doesn’t appear to GAF about the good Friday agreement and is being dictated to by the DUP
Can’t wait til next year, post-Brexit when they start bombing Manchester again
At least the minister for Northern Ireland is someone who knows the subject very well........... Or is she?
Generally they try to stay short of that. Not out of any niceness but just because although massive profits can be realise so can massive losses including, for any not clever enough not to live in the country they are doing over, their lives.
Also why use the army if you have shares in g4s...
Can’t wait til next year, post-Brexit when they start bombing Manchester again
But the muslims are the bad guys now so not as much to worry about.
Also why use the army if you have shares in g4s…
That’s what it is all about as far as the exploiters who actually know what they are doing are concerned.
The key is to tender for the work first, though. Then trouser the cash (very generously) paid up front before it becomes blindingly obvious you cannot actually do the job. Then, when presented with a choice of anarchy on the streets or using the army (and public money), it is back to you - the public - to pay for it. No penalties, of course, and the money will be offshore approximately five seconds after the initial payment.
Quite how we are going to afford £350m a week for the NHS with all this going on is beyond me.
Trouble with this thread is every time I read replies to my question on farming I want to go WTF, there’s only so many you can give.
The gov could have at least got that nailed down.
Interesting that poll that shows that with the deaths of the leavers and the ability to vote that remain would be the flavour. I think they are right to hammer home that it’s the young people who are going to live with it.
The trouble is that there is no one concerted Remain campaigner.
The trouble is that there is no one concerted Remain campaigner.
Gina miller or Caroline Lucas won't strike a gammon chord. It needs to be white middle class middle aged gent, Jeremy clarkson!
Labour should have a new campaign.
For the living,
Not the dead.
There is also a post doing the rounds on social media about a new Lisbon treaty where we basically become slaves to the Eu. Total lies that will be fact as soon as a second referendum is announced.
Can everyone please get behind a group called Led By Donkeys. They are putting posters up with leave mp quotes . They are at least getting out there and doing something.
@dudeifdoom
https://twitter.com/annietrev/status/1086552343229943808?s=19
Current mp for a lot of farmers now blaming the French for the possibility of imposing tariffs, they are so far into the lie they can't stop.
Just coincidence that something we’ve not seen for twenty years reappears when the government doesn’t appear to GAF about the good Friday agreement and is being dictated to by the DUP
The likelihood of our being brexit/GFA related isn't exactly tiny but A) it's entirely possible that the nut job who did it CGAS about any of that and just likes blowing stuff up (or happens to be in possession of the required stuff and just happens to have a very very strong point of view on brexit) - there was plenty of that during IRA(and other) ceasefires back when. B) that "we've not seen for twenty years" is nonsense too, there have been ongoing pipe bomb incidents,actual bombings and attacks on RUC officers for years, they're just not weekly like they were.
I'd hold fire on pinning this on brexit until it's absolutely clear that's what it is.
I had a very very cursory Google to try find the schedule for the courthouse in question but no luck. I'd wager it's more likely a result of something specific to the target than more overtly political.
Is the car bomb in NI to make a point about the GFA?
After all it appears the govt is in thrall to the DUP, and that won't be happy news to the IRA.
Baaaad news for sheep
https://www.farminguk.com/news/-No-deal-Brexit-could-lead-to-mass-slaughter-of-mid-transit-sheep_50444.html
Re Jacobs dad made predictions that were so wide of the mark that the Eye named him mystic Mogg.
Great supporter of a more liberal drugs policy which may also account for a lot. The Eye also referred to him as Moggadon Man.
According to Andrew Rawnsley in the Gruniad today Mays plan B is revert to plan A plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
But the muslims are the bad guys now so not as much to worry about.
But after Brexit they won't be able to get in. Oh wait....
Theresa May inflexible? Now that's a turn up for the books, who'd have thought that would happen what a surprise....
So today's plan is to propose an agreement with the Irish Government that the Irish Government cannot legally make?
Wastes a few more days I suppose.
Wastes a few more days I suppose.
Whats infuriating is her 'deal' was dead more than a month ago but she still wastes time.
Be interesting to hear what the Irish government make of that.
Whats infuriating is her ‘deal’ was dead more than a month ago but she still wastes time.
Yeah, but that's the whole idea. Abuse parliamentary process. Run down the clock. May's deal or no deal.
Don’t worry she assured us last week that she is not running down the clock.
Which is why no deal needs to go, its becoming clear to just about everyone the only one she is trying to bully with it is the rational people.
THe ERG/DUP axis of zealotry absolutely will not compromise over the customs union or the backstop. So any 'solution' that is actually possible to impliment will split the Tory party.
And May is far more concerned about that than trashing the countries economy
The Andrew Rawnsley article in yesterdays Observer makes for pretty depressing reading
What's MORE infuriating than that is that there was never ever going to be a ‘deal’ that delivered everything that was promised, and they knew it. The promises were lies.
If they'd have sold Brexit on the truth and won the referendum I'd say good luck to it. Not my personal choice but I'd still have had respect for the process if it really was what the majority of the people of Britain wanted.
Instead here we are (by "we" I mean the general public, not the rich or the politicians) sitting in the middle of what is literally a slow motion train-wreck of a disaster.
The people behind this who have their own agendas knew and still know exactly what the outcome was always going be, and pushed for it on that basis. Once you accept that they did it for themselves, and NOT for Queen and country, then everything - every lie, every confusing interview or statement, every "secret" that slips out, makes sense.
I read a comment on Twitter this morning that in a Sky TV debate quite a lot of people seemed to think "No Deal" means things stay as they are (i.e. We remain).
I can believe that. A lot of people were/are ignorant of the basic facts (or have been "misled" if you want to be charitable).
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Jesus H. That many people think no deal means we just remain in the EU?!
We are bloody doomed.