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Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May.
Because May has clearly failed, and the tory government has been failing for 2 years+, so we want an alternative, a real alternative not just different colored unicorns, so we look to the opposition, the party I would usually support and vote for to provide some hope and all we get is a void.
I am a left wing libreal snowflake, the tories are doing what I expect them to, putting themselves, greed and power before the nation. That isn't what I expect or want from labour, they need to provide something for us to unite behind. Because I have no hope that May or any other sniveling frontbench torie ****tard will do what is right for the country, I look to labour for that hope, to lead us out of the mess that the tories have made, but they show no inclination to do so.
Hang on. We were told that Labour would only bring forward a Vote of No Confidence when they knew that were going to win it.
Aye, I'm glad he kept his powder dry, choosing his moment for maximum impact.....
And for the record, like MSP, I'm a lifelong Guardian-reading, liberal leftie who has voted Labour at every single election in my adult life, but I look at Corbyns labour party in total and utter despair
I'm far from alone in this
Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May.
Nothing can get through Parliament without the leader of one of the main two parties supporting it. It may well be that May or her successor offer a way out of this, but, given how pro Brexit her party members and voters are, we are not expecting it. Labour members and voters want something different from the Leader of the party that they voted for. Although, I have to admit, my last vote for a Labour parliamentary candidate will probably be my last, unless someting changes.
Ok I get it - we are all hugely disappointed with Brexit and feel disenfranchised because no-one is really representing our views.
But I think the relentless focus on Corbyn lets May and the Tories off the hook.
Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May.
Because Corbyn now has the balance of power in Parliamentary terms. He, and only he, can whip enough MPs to get a version of Brexit through the Commons.
The ERG Tory loons will vote against any softer Brexit deal, but that doesn't matter if a significant number of Labour MPs fall in behind it.
I personally, would love to see the whole thing get called off, but realistically I think the best we can hope for is a much softer Brexit deal engineered cross-party, perhaps eventually put to the public via a two-option ref. This deal or remain.
If he is obstructing this process by immediately throwing up hard barriers to talks, then you have to wonder what that posture is designed to achieve except to prolong stalemate.
Labour members and voters want something different from the Leader of the party that they voted for
Members maybe (well most of them) but voters is rather more complex. The heartlands risk being wiped out if Labour come out hard against. You dont think the tories will be grateful for being saved and not take advantage and then go hard right do you?
But I think the relentless focus on Corbyn lets May and the Tories off the hook.
Thats the idea of course. Why the right wing media keep it up and fortunately for them they have a bunch of useful idiots in the form of the "moderates" who have such a deep hatred of anything other than their version of left wing politics that they dedicate themselves to attacking Corbyn and co whilst letting the ERG and its playmates get away with it.
Binners, Northwind etc I think our politics are much more similar than different - my frustrations about Brexit are just as big as yours, but I think the ire should be focused on those that are caused and continue to **** up.
but I think the ire should be focused on those that are caused and continue to **** up.
Frustration with Corbyn and anger at what the Tories have done are not mutually-exclusive positions. It is undeniable that this is the worst, most incompetent, self-serving, mercenary and weak Conservative government in modern history. But now that Corbyn has some Parliamentary clout, it is important he doesn't squander it via grandstanding.
We can go back to talking about this shitshow of a government tomorrow - today is about what Corbyn needs to do in the public interest.
I haven't read every post but I have seen no answers to that question that gives any specifics within a day of asking it.
What should he have done?
Any movement away from leave he would have 100+ labour mps voting against him and along with the tories
So in order to avoid a limited number of labour MPs rebelling and voting with the Tories he whipped the whole party to do the same.
There are Tory moderates crying out for support enough to overturn the legislation that was introduced.
He should have opposed the triggering of A50 without a thorough risk identification and mitigation plan being undertaken so it was clear what needed to be done and the timescales and costs associated with that. He should have opposed no deal being the default position so we can't have a time bomb strapped to us on negotiations. He should have been setting out alternative red lines to provide his "jobs 1st Brexit" and using that to point out why the government proposals are damaging to the labour heartlands. And finally when it got to the meaningful vote he could criticise the government's plans from a position of meaningful differentiation. Watching labour try to claim credit for the defeat of Theresa Mays plan across social media is embarrassing.
But he did none of that so nothing he does is particularly meaningful because he's left himself holding a bust hand against someone holding a pair of 2s. So instead people who should support labour are driven to frustration because through either gross incompetence or tacit cooperation with the Tories they are left watching labour prop up a defunct government against the wishes of the majority of their members, removing any differentiation that they may want to take to a GE that they aren't in a position to trigger.
And given he's either incompetent or a Tory enabler he really should stand down and let someone else lead.
Members maybe (well most of them) but voters is rather more complex. The heartlands risk being wiped out if Labour come out hard against.
This is a two way street. If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour? Most Tory's, in fact, most voters, aren't hard-right anti-EU fundamentalists - as a certain Mr T Blair recognised. I'd say there are vast swathes of previous Tory voters out there who are as despairing as anyone else about Brexit, which politically is the only game in town right now. How many marginal seats would be in the bag if we had a labour party that laid out a vision of a future for the UK in the EU?
Corbyn had no interest in doing this. Never did. Never will. Because he's a Brexiteer
At this point, he should probably call for A50 to be delayed, and for a referendum, as his members want.
And what would that actually achieve, May would just reject it. He is not in power so can do nothing - which is exactly why he is continue to harp on about an election.
Because he’s a Brexiteer
Yawn.
This is a two way street. If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour?
Less non brexit Tories would switch to Labour than brexiter Labour voters would switch to Tory. Not a two way street at all.
If Corbyn listened to the advise many of you are putting forward he would have 50 less seats come another election but at least the Labour party would go down on a good principal eh...
I give up. He won't do anything to stop Brexit, or let the public choose if they want to stop Brexit, because he wants a general election so that he can be PM and carry out Brexit … but he's not pro Brexit. All clear. At least he'll keep your vote @Kerley & @tjagain… but I'm done with him.
Corbyn does not hold a balance of power or indeed any power
Molgrips it's not I disagree it's that no-one has answered it with anything specific or possible
If he comes out in favour of another ref then half his frontbench quits and half his party votes against
With that I will take another break from this. Every one is shouting. No one is listening and too many believe the right-wing propaganda including labour mps
His refusal to engage in talks with the government (that now appear to be desperately looking for a way through this mess) is just more of what he's done his entire 'career'. Its puerile, juevenile, and momre importantly - totally ineffective - placard waving! It will achieve nothing! Change nothing! But to the hard-of-thiking 6th formers it looks like he's 'sticking it to the man, yeah?'
I despair!
but at least the Labour party would go down on a good principal eh
I think that is part of what the "moderates" hope for. If Labour saved the tories and got wiped out as a result they could then drag the party back rightwards. Best to skip over last time that happened we ended up with all the people feeling abandoned and voting for a change whatever that ends up being.
Binners - I'm not exactly happy with that move either.
I think that is part of what the “moderates” hope for.
This meme that people who don't want Brexit (Tory policy) are helping the Tories by saying so, is getting old.
Corbyn does not hold a balance of power or indeed any power
Really? So May can get any version of her deal through without Labour?
There are effectively three major parties at Westminster when it comes to Brexit negotiations. May's Tories, the ERG Tories, and Labour.
It's true that Corbyn should recognise that he doesn't have any power to remove the government - that should be patently obvious by now. He isn't getting his election any time soon.
But he has the potential for significant influence over Brexit negotiations for the practical reason that the ERG will vote down pretty much everything. The only way to get a deal through the Commons is via cross-party negotiation.
If he comes out in favour of another ref then half his frontbench quits and half his party votes against
Over 70% of the party support a second ref, thankfully he democratised the party and is listening to them....
Which of his front bench have stated they will quit if he supports a second ref?
is for the hard of thinking only.
Lucky people aint saying that then isnt it?
Rather inanely regurgitating the latest right wing attack memes on Corbyn and co helps the maybot and co get off the hook.
He should have opposed the triggering of A50 without a thorough risk identification and mitigation plan being undertaken so it was clear what needed to be done and the timescales and costs associated with that.
Unfortunately he was there calling for Article 50 to be triggered the day of the Referendum result...
Which of his front bench have stated they will quit if he supports a second ref?
Perhaps he could get back some of his front benchers that he sacked for supporting a referendum.
Rather inanely regurgitating the latest right wing attack memes
Do the right wing attack memes include calling for A50 to be extended or revoked? Or calling for a referendum on whether we still want to press on with Brexit?
It’s true that Corbyn should recognise that he doesn’t have any power to remove the government – that should be patently obvious by now. He isn’t getting his election any time soon.
Tom Watson was on Newsnight last night saying, they said they try, and they've tried. They haven't decided what they are doing next (apart from putting down more red lines).
If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour?
With Corbyn in charge, very few. Because thanks to rhetoric like yours binners, they all think he's a rabid commie (which is far from true) and/or ineffectual.
You oversimplify politics greatly. He's boxed in, that's the reality, so I really think there's not a lot he can do. Maybe a truly great statesman could find a way out, but they're in short supply recently.
His refusal to engage in talks with the government
Whilst you have been engaging in a nice primary school activity of finding some photos did you happen to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now since its clear any discussion is a waste of time until she shows signs of actually being able to compromise?
Surely at some point very soon they need a Commons vote with two choices; postpone a50 (for a minimum of 1 year) or exit with no deal. There's no chance any sort of exit deal with get voted through now so all the current BS that just keeps us bumbling along is pointless.
Assuming the postpone a50 vote passes then, if no new deal emerges that gets passed then it's followed by another vote after 1 year which two choices; Leave with no deal or hold a 2nd referendum (referendum options are either Leave with no deal or Remain, as by then we'll know our government is incapable of negotiating an exit deal which has Commons support)
You oversimplify politics greatly.
It's simple. Corbyn wants Brexit. Lot of other complications abound, but on this one topic, it's simple really. Now, can he ever put that to one side and allow the party to democratically set policy in this area? It doesn't look like it.
85% of Labour party membership favour value 2nd ref. PLP is far less minded this way
Actually now I've calmed down a bit (I'm not normally an argumentative person - another reason to dislike Brexit) I think the nexts few weeks will make or break Corbyn. If he ****s up the opportunity that the anti-May deal vote presented the party membership will not forgive him. No matter what people think about Corbyn's principles - what worries me is that he seems to be have a naivety about how the political game works
To be fair to Corbs he has refused to discuss with TM until she rules out a no-deal.
Either he's saying that cos he's aware of what damage it'll do, or he's saying it so he can run the clock down so that we leave with no-deal...
to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now since its clear any discussion is a waste of time until she shows signs of actually being able to compromise?
Though it could be argued that deciding that on the basis of a meeting as opposed to an ultimatum at least makes it look like they were prepared to try. If Labour engage with discussions, then come out and say TM is intransigent, then the pressure is back on her.
Another argument is that Theresa May doesn't particularly need the SNP. They, like the LibDems, are a minor party. Any power/influence lies with Jeremy Corbyn, but if he continues to exercise it in a confrontational way - no-confidence votes, ultimatums - then it plays into the hands of those who want obstruction and delay to tip us into no-deal. Whether or not JC is one of those, I wouldn't like to judge.
Those led by donkeys people are brilliant.
There's been too many seminars and not enough action.
If I may intrude into the discussion about the uselessness of, on the one side Tweedledee and on the other, Tweedledum...
I’ve lately noticed an outstanding political interviewer in amongst all the flack.
Step forward Adam Boulton, formerly “That fat chap always outside number ten” (business genius Alan Sugar).
His “All Out Politics” on Sky is well worth a look.
Unlike the typical BBC method which always seems to descend into a shouty match of ‘who’s got the loudest interruption’, he seems to just elide his questions quietly into the gaps of his interviewees’ responses and thereby getting them to answer his questions rather than just encouraging more stonewalling.
Softly softly catchee monkey.
Runner up - Tony Robinson.
OK. Carry on.
Corbyn May Corbyn May Corbym May Corbyn May Corbyn May
no one want's to blink first on FOM, the Maybot would break the deadlock with the labour party onside and they will help her vote through Norway++ with the ERG left out in the cold, but she needs to shift the blame for FOM onto labour, come the next ge all the immigrants are labours fault.
did you happen to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now
That was only an hour ago, wasn't it? And she is insisting that a referendum and change of exit date is put "back in the table" as well, as did Cable. Lucas is over there now, presumably making the same point.
Corbyn is making a speech at 11. I expect it'll be as worthwhile as Mays last night. I'm sure he'll just reiterate his position and keep painting himself further into that corner. Utterly pointless.
The one thing I do hope for, in the absense of any worthwhile content, is that he tones down the shoutyness level. Its really starting to grate.
Looks like Gove has been sent out to by-pass the labour 'leadership' and have a chat with the MP's.
At least he’ll keep your vote @Kerley & @tjagain… but I’m done with him
He certainly will. Brexit or not, what the Labour party currently stands for and what it would do if in power (compared to the Tories) will get my vote every time. Who are you voting for that will not keep the tories in power then? (as assuming you don't want tories in power)
Yes Corbyn is not a great leader and yes somebody else could have done a better job over the last year but helping the tories stay in by throwing a strop about it is a little immature.
I'm not voting for a pro Brexit government to remove a pro Brexit government. If I hear "80% of people voted for a party that…" never again, it'll be too soon. One thing UKIP have taught us is that the course of the country can be changed by voting for the party whose policies you agree with, even if they are not one of the big two. From now on, I'll vote to show support for policies I agree with.
He is not in power so can do nothing – which is exactly why he is continue to harp on about an election.
Look at what's going on, being in power isn't in any way a solution to that problem. May is in power but can't command enough support. If Corbyn was in power, without support from the opposition benches he could achieve nothing. There is no majority in any party in parliament large enough to deliver any solution to this without cross bench leadership support.
Corbyn's policy is to not agree with the government, they could declare him king of the world, hand him a withdrawal agreement that meets everyone of his impossible unquantifyable tests and he'd still whip his party to vote against it.
Want to blame the Tories? Cameron got us into this mess. May (thankfully given the other options) has tried to steer us through it, albeit like a blind woman at the wheel but at least with some conceptof a destination if not a route. Tory infighting is fairly representative (though not in numbers) of exactly what The Public think and is as much if not more to blame than the ukip vote, people don't agree, they don't want the same thing but they very certainly wasn't what they want and won't be happy without exactly that.
The Tory party cannot and will not be united in this and will not respect the party whip. The Labour party cannot and will not be united about this but unlike the Tory party will at least act more (though not completely) in line with their party whip if needed.
Corbyn is largely to blame because he's not doing his job. The job of leader of the opposition isn't too agitate for an election (especially not one no-one wants or needs) it's to provide a viable alternative to the ideas of government, to hold the government to account not ransom (though you'd need demands for that) and ultimately to ensure the governance of the country is conducted in the national interest not the interest of a small minority. He's doing none of this things, quite the opposite in the later instance.
So yes, he's to blame by having a policy of deliberately making the job of government impossible at the point in time it's most needed, not providing any alternative whipping one way then shouting The other. The opposition is there to make the government's life difficult, even handed and fair and he's wilfully failed in that the hope he can be king of the shit heap when this is all finished.
The Tories threw us off the sure, but jezza should be helping us to shore and instead he won't even tell us which direction to swim.
Looks like Gove has been sent out to by-pass the labour ‘leadership’ and have a chat with the MP’s.
That is the logical next step for May. A coalition of cross party soft-brexiteers combined are possibly enough to win. Should that group start to coalesce within Labour then Corbyn really won't have any meaningful power. Of course TM will really be stepping over her red lines for that one.
Interesting times. Are we seeing the first ripples of the break-up of both of our main political parties, and a future of broad coalition government?
... to continue with posting of my internal dialogue which I'm find therapeutic...
If Corbyn did get too close to any final deal it would allow May to spread the blame. Whatever the outcome there will be a large number of pissed off people. LibDems were wiped out by getting too close to the Tories in Govt - I imagine Labour and SNP will be wary
Also,Brexit aside, the current Tory regime is pretty hateful and any progressive party, nevermind a left wing led Labour party needs to be cautious.
Gove as the emissary of peace - it is the end of days I tell you.
I'm off to do some yoga and pretend it's not happening like the snowflake I am
LibDems were wiped out by getting too close to the Tories in Govt
Fair point.
And look what happened to Labour after standing with the Tories during the Scottish Indy ref.
I'd argue that could also be a good reason for having clear water between Labour and Tory policies on Brexit as well… rather than mirroring it, but throwing in the odd "jobs first" caveat.
Interesting times. Are we seeing the first ripples of the break-up of both of our main political parties, and a future of broad coalition government?
I, for one, dearly hope so.
Voting Labour would be suicide
Of course TM will really be stepping over her red lines for that one.
I think that May surely must be looking for a way out by now from her frankly stupid red lines. Surely the logical way out - as its the only thing that can possibly command a parliamentary majority - is a soft Brexit which would definitely involve staying in the customs union, and probably the single market. So she could consult with the 'opposition' and then say 'this is the only deal that they will accept, so will pass'.
The gammons will go mental, but most of them will do that anyway short of recommencing the carpet bombing of Dresden and the bricking up of the channel tunnel
Surely at some point very soon they need a Commons vote with two choices; postpone a50 (for a minimum of 1 year) or exit with no deal.
But we can't do that unilaterally.
The EU27 have made clear they won't support an extension without an obvious opportunity for a change in direction (eg ref 2).
They keep saying they won't renegotiate and further negotiations for a deal aren't reason enough to extend (history tells us all bets on that are off until the very very last moment).
If they're to be believed (I've no more faith in their word than that of our own politicians) the options we have (in what i imagine to be order of paletability for parliament) are May's deal, call it all off, referendum or no deal.
The reality is parliament needs to get a grip, stop seeing red and blue and make a decision even a bloody terrible one. We're in this on our own at this point and hoping for a white knight from the EU to make it easier isn't anymore helpful than the cake and eat it policies of every party in parliament.
Listening to Emma Barnett on Five Live interviewing a 'leading Brexiteer' from Leave Means Leave, it would appear the BBC have finally grown a pair and engaged with calling these cake-and-eat-it idiots out over their flagrent lies
grantway
Member
Voting Labour would be suicide
I'd take that over the hell and suffering this government has caused so many people in its pursuit of attaining Austerity Nirvana.
its definately nothing to do with Brexit but, we were warned
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-35940170/hitachi-boss-i-oppose-brexit
Over 70% of the party support a second ref, thankfully he democratised the party and is listening to them….
He's following party policy to the letter, I think?
I can't believe people are still blaming Corbyn for this mess. The fact is that the Labour Party is a split on this issue as the Tory party, as is the country as a whole, no one is going to ride in on a white horse and save us from this tragedy. Which guess what, was caused by Cameron trying to fix the Tory in-fighting over EU membership. Its amazing to me that given the disasters this Tory government has inflicted on this country (austerity, NHS, education, transport to name 4 things that they are merrily f'in up) that they have created something even worse to distract us away from these things. I'm amazed as they are clearly too incompetent to have planned this, so it must be more by luck than judgement. But no its Corbyn's fault, sorry, my mistake (doffs cap, grovels, crawls away).
Two phrases that have me ready to brick the TV:
"80% of people voted for a party that..."
and
"We agreed at conference"
I read this thread with interest as it's good to see differing viewpoints (although obviously **** Brexit) but I really don't know how people can persist with this "Corbyn is a Brexiteer" viewpoint.
He has criticisms of the EU, sure. But he also called last night for "no deal" to be ruled out. That's not the actions of a hardline Brexiteer.
It also seems to be sowing further seeds of unity - the SNP have come out and publicly supported the same position. No, it's not committing to a "People's Vote" but it's quite clearly leaving two options on the table - some sort of Deal or Rescind A50. May's Deal has been binned off and there is very little time left to renegotiate, assuming May shifts on her red lines.
I'm not sure how you can say he isn't uniting the opposition or holding the government to account. There is clear evidence that he is: biggest defeat in history, Labour's six tests for the Brexit deal.
There is still some political manouevring required to keep the heartland Labour leavers onside, but IMO the line is being walked fairly well at the moment.
EDIT:
He’s following party policy to the letter, I think?
Yep, that's my reading of it as well.
I'm with @richmtb
I'll add the "Labour's six tests" nonsense to the TV vs brick inciting phrases as well.
Crikey ... still fighting amongst each others.
I thought I have come back to peace and tranquillity after 5 weeks away.
🙁
They keep saying they won’t renegotiate and further negotiations for a deal aren’t reason enough to extend (history tells us all bets on that are off until the very very last moment).
.... they won't renegotiate until we offer something different in our position.
Reproducing my analogy from a few pages back, we're in the dealership asking for 5 doors, aircon, leather, auto, less than 3 years old and under £10K and they're saying we simply can't have that, and no matter how often we ask the answer is the same.
But if we are prepared to drop the leather and go up to 4 years old.... ah, now we can do something.
The EU would reopen discussions and approve an extension for them to take place if we're prepared to drop some of our red lines.
♻
chewkw
Member
Crikey … still fighting amongst each others.I thought I have come back to peace and tranquillity after 5 weeks away.
you should see whats been happening in parliament
Brexit has divided the country for a generation, & still no one knows what it is!
Voting Labour would be suicide
Whereas having a Tory government just leads to suicides. Don't worry though, it is only the less privileged who are suffering.
But if we are prepared to drop the leather and go up to 4 years old…. ah, now we can do something.
The EU would reopen discussions and approve an extension for them to take place if we’re prepared to drop some of our red lines.
Agree. Good theory but won't happen in practice due to the politics within the parties. All that is needed is a consensus based on the differing requirements that at least 320 MPs (across party) can agree to. Don't even need to engage with ERG as they are irrelevant.
In ten years time when the UK has a center based none political agenda that serves the people
Really?
you should see whats been happening in parliament
Brexit has divided the country for a generation, & still no one knows what it is!
Yes, just caught a glimpse of the news late yesterday.
Pity the ALL the politicians can't sit down to talk properly.
The EU would reopen discussions and approve an extension for them to take place if we’re prepared to drop some of our red lines.
I do hope you're right but i don't see it that way, unless the red lines are freedom of movement and full compliance.
I’m not sure how you can say he isn’t uniting the opposition or holding the government to account. There is clear evidence that he is: biggest defeat in history, Labour’s six tests for the Brexit deal.
The defeat of mayway would have happened with out without Corbyn, though I'll accept the margin may not have been so high but, significantly, the margin isn't labour MPs it's conservative ones who tend not to pay much regard to their own whip let alone Labour's.
His job as leader of the PLP is to unite the Labour party, which arguably is the opposition. he's - from what i gather - not even on speaking terms with many of them, that's hardly united, the unity in the PLP is a shared hatred of the conservatives and, fear of losing their jobs if they disagree too loudly.
Even if he was all things to all men in the PLP, the job of leader of the opposition through isn't the same, it's not to be shouty and oppose on the principal of opposing government policy it's to oppose by debate and provide alternatives, to table amendments that shape motions to broaden their support, he's not doing that.
The six tests are a joke. Even without needing your solution to be achievable in practice can you come up with any solution (use as many unicorns as you like) that can be categorically said to pass them? The tests are deliberately impossible to pass, they have no quantifiable indicators and rely soley on JC and JMcD admitting they couldn't do better.
Yes he's now called for no deal to be categorically ruled out, up until last week official policy, or what there was of it, was all options. It's clear parliament won't support no deal so he's very publicly dumping it, it's not leadership or creating unity to very loudly take credit for the collective decision of everyone else.
So lets play fantasy Brexit.
Your goal is to Leave the EU, it's the will of the people after all* 320 votes is what you need to get through parliament.
We know Theresa May managed 202 Votes on her deal. Of those 197 were Tories.
110 Tories voted against her. Out of these 70-80 are ERG nutters who want out at any cost - they are lost to May - 30 to 40 are Remainers who want a better deal or a second ref. Lets call is 80 ERG and 30 Tory Remain.
Tory Remainers can probably be brought on side with a move to a softer Brexit. The DUP will probably support any form of Brexit that removes the back stop. A softer Brexit that includes the Customs Union would remove the need for a back stop.
So on that side of the house you have 190 Tory loyalists / payroll memebers. 30 Tory Remainers and 10 DUP. So that's 230 that would vote for a softer Brexit if May proposed it.
She needs 90 votes from the other side of the house. The SNP have said that while a 2nd referendum is their 1st preference they will support a deal that include a customs union. That's 35 votes. So you need 55 Labour back-benchers to support any new withdrawal bill. There are 256 Labour MPs so less than a quarter of them are needed in this scenario.
If the SNP can't be persuaded then 90 Labour MPs would be needed. Its still well under half.
This fantasy is of course predicated on May being willing to compromise and move some of her red lines
*was the narrow will of the people 30 months ago, but going backing and checking if its changed is anti-democratic apparently
Chewkw,how did you wangle the early release? Surely not good behaviour?
All that is needed is a consensus based on the differing requirements that at least 320 MPs (across party) can agree to.
at this stage I think some red lines have to be removed before consensus can be reached.
The extent might change the closer we get to the No Deal abyss, but the majority in the house are against no deal, as are the larger majority of the public - and that's before they see how crap things get under no deal. I cannot see that the government will take us off that abyss, in spite of how idiotic it has been so far - the grown ups will save us, surely? A government that does that will in time be seen for what they did and pay a huge price.
The six tests are a joke...
The tests may well be impossible to pass! But that's kind of the point. They aren't "Labour's vision of what Labour would deliver if they were in a position to negotiate"; they are Labour holding the Tories accountable to what they claimed they would deliver on Brexit. It's an attempt to make someone accountable to delivering all the dreams and unicorns that were promised.
Yes he’s now called for no deal to be categorically ruled out, up until last week official policy, or what there was of it, was all options.
Unfortunately, I think that had to be the case. Coming out in favour of remain or a second ref would have immediately taken the spotlight off the Tories and onto Labour in the form of MSM "Saboteur" headlines, and alienated large numbers of labour voters. It's no good standing there and saying "we know best, we're not leaving the EU" - I think that's a large part of what caused the Leave majority in the first place.
anti-no deal is the only thing that Parly has a declared majority for. That should be focus of first votes/Bill amendment as it will create a base to build from.
It would make the ERG increasingly irrelevant
interesting article in PE (I know) but refers to a poll of voters asking what it would take to persuade them to get behind a second referendum.
Being told they were wrong, doesn't cut it. Even being told that the result will be a reduction in living standards, etc., is still seen as a price worth paying. But tell them that they were lied to and there was cheating in the referendum process - then it swings to a 62:38 in favour
All this business about moving red lines or the six tests is fantasy IMO.
We do not hold the whip hand, the EU does, because it's their club and their rules.
They are much bigger and more powerful than the UK, so they cannot be bludgeoned into agreeing to our terms, bludgeoning being the usual British tactic. We are getting a taste of being on the other side of the table than we are used to, and the only red lines they care about are their own.
In other words, we are supplicants, and the only red lines that matter are those the more powerful EU lay down.
Our problem is our negotiations are being done as if we are still The Empire with the world's most powerful navy, billions of potential foot soldiers, and the resources to match. Arrogance is not a good tactic in those circumstances.
Our politicians need a reality check about our new place in the world without the EU behind us.
We have no "friends", just vultures waiting for the opportunity to strip us clean. Bye bye NHS, workers rights, humane welfare etc etc.
I do believe that once we adjust to the new circumstances post Brexit, we will eventually prosper again, but in the interim we are going to be like a country that has been comprehensively trashed in an all out war.
Maybe that's Labour's opportunity after the next election post Brexit. To do what Atlee's govt did after defeating Churchill's Tories, namely re-introduce all their reforms.
anti-no deal is the only thing that Parly has a declared majority for. That should be focus of first votes/Bill amendment as it will create a base to build from.
It's fine to know that this is what the majority wants, but not sure how that works though without government support to timetable...... as it stands we either agree to *something* or get no deal on 29th Mar, that is how the law reads. There is no (legal) 'anything but not that' option at this point. Hence to have time to agree to 'something' else means that the extension has to be the first activity in my mind, just so the clock can't be run down to a point where Mayway becomes the 'anything but not that'
From Labour manifesto 2017.
A Conservative Brexit will weaken
workers’ rights, deregulate the
economy, slash corporate taxes,
sideline Parliament and democratic
accountability, and cut Britain off
from our closest allies and most
important trading partners.
Labour recognises that leaving the
EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible
deal for Britain and that it would do
damage to our economy and trade.
We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable
option and if needs be negotiate
transitional arrangements to avoid
a 'cliff-edge’ for the economy.
That is two years ago.
As I vaguely understand things... May has to bring new(?) proposals back on Monday after her the deal was voted down on Weds. Amends can be tabled at that point I believe. Hilary Benn withdrew an anti-no deal amendment before the last vote to avoid muddying the waters for the main vote
If anyone has can link to a clear explanation of the Parly process on all this it would probably be useful