There were about 50 Brexit supporters and THM on the early pages of this thread. Only the most fervent now post
bullied, apparently. 🙄
What form of EU will exist in 10 years time?
Yes, the thing "we" have voted to Leave is flawed.
What are we replacing it with though?
How is it better?
No contradictiary unicorns please…
Whatever form the EU takes in the future… we'll have far less influence in that process, and I'd be very surprised if it didn't still effect us greatly.
That David Davis does come across as a bit of a bully.
It has flaws of course it does. Is there a human organisation that doesn't?Locked into Farage's Britain vs EU membership, with our kids' rights to live work and study in the world's largest free trade area, and one of the most varied and liberal regions on Earth?
Negotiating trade deals solo or alongside the combined purchasing power 27 other countries.
It's a no-brainer.
That's a good summary.
I've not seen anything on the other side of the fence that is as positive as that. And that's the trouble - it's all about sticking two fingers up to something rather than working together, and that in itself deeply flawed.
But then we're an island with the respective attitude.
@Kimbers voting on the 2015-2020 EU budget is a commitment to total spending and thus our share [b]on the basis we remain an EU member[/b]. A50 cuts off all payments after 2 years. Now I have little doubt the clause was written (was only thought of for the Lisbon Treaty signed by Blair) with the scenario that a net recipient left but if the EU wanted to have nations bound till the end of a budget period they could have said so. They did not.
The EU know its a try on that's why they don't refer to a specifc Directive or EU document to show our legal liability.
The payment.
It's all Brexiteers bloody go on about. Because doing a big two fingered salute to our neighbours and saying "We're not paying, na-na-ne-na-naa" makes them feel better about [i]something[/i].
Something will be paid. Probably more than the UK wants to. Less than the EU wants from us. Hey ho. There's negotiations for you.
I suppose it helps to delay thinking about the really
complicated stuff that needs sorting out. Someone else will do all that for them.
You'll be arguing to rejoin in five years Jamba, won't you.
@matt yes guilty of a bit of extrapolation / artistc licence. However, the flaws are material - corruption and waste, security failings (Shengen), foreign policy (Ukraine) and most importantly the catastrophe that is the euro.
@igm I'd be willing to bet I will not ! I was an EU fan 15-20 years ago, it's gone badly off the rails and is accelerating downwards. I would be in favour of a NAFTA style free trade zone, with no freedom of movement and no budget, no parliament just civil servants seconded by member nations.
There was supposed to be a worldwide recession by now due to a Leave vote. Our Economy is doing well, exports up, tourism up, wages rising, unemployment falling.
Edukator the majority of Leavers can't be bothered with the tone of this thread and the abuse they receive. It's a great shame ernie_lynch no longer adds his contributions as he clearly domes from a different political standpoint than do I for example.
Edukator the majority of Leavers can't be bothered with the tone of this thread and the abuse they receive.
Brilliant.
Abuse?
Since when did astonishment at incompetence and ignorance become reclassified as abuse?
EU are asking for meaningful negotiation, the reply from the UK is that the EU are not being 'imaginative'.
Unless the brakes are put on this, it's only going to go one way.
Hint; it won't be in our favour with the rest of the world watching and considering whether they want to do business with us.
There was supposed to be a worldwide recession by now due to a Leave vote.
Nope.
Our Economy is doing well,
No it's slowing noticeably now (but only partly to do with Brexshit)
wages rising
Significant pressure in real terms thanks in part to higher inflation - much more to do with Brexshit due to weaker £
EU are asking for meaningful negotiation, the reply from the UK is that the EU are not being 'imaginative'.
No, really 😯
Thomas Cook are currently offering 1 euro 6 cents to the pound. 😳
No wonder EU exporters are starting to squeal
@igm I'd be willing to bet I will not ! I was an EU fan 15-20 years ago, it's gone badly off the rails and is accelerating downwards. I would be in favour of a NAFTA style free trade zone, with no freedom of movement and no budget, no parliament just civil servants seconded by member nations.
One pound bet? It ain't going to cost either of us much if we use pounds 😉
You're mate Donald doesn't seem to like NAFTA much - blaming it for trashing US jobs (he's lying of course but...)
Provided we have the four freedoms, the rest of the deal (subsidies etc) I can live without. Freedom of movement of labour is good for my children.
Which is a similar rate to 2009. Did the UK fall apart in 2010 or 11 ? Seek an IMF bailout ?
@igm if you wish although to win the bet I could just keep my "re join the EU" campaign off the forum 😉 surely you havn't missed how hostile I am to the EU, its very very hard for me to imagine a scenario where I became "pro"
EU are asking for meaningful negotiation
Barnier is totally restricted in his ability to negotiate as his mandate from the EU Parliament is so restrictive - he pretty much said as much himself and Davies has pointed this out. The EU are basically asking us to agree with them. The EU have published nothing on Irish border or any legal "financial settlement" nor indeed a figure (although that's doffocult as they intend to just keep adding to it in the future whuch is why they want a "process" agreed not an amount)
Jamba - parity or £ below € is being predicted. Let's see what happens.
On the bet , I am well aware how opposed you are but a) you explained why off forum and you are going to be disappointed, b) you're fickle (in my opinion) and c) you won't keep it off forum (assuming the forum and your participation in it survives Brexit, should Brexit occur) because you're as much of a loud mouth as me.
£1. Keep in touch. (But it won't buy either of us much)
You'll get 86 cents at Southampton airport, although that's as much down to the rip off money changers as brexitThomas Cook are currently offering 1 euro 6 cents to the pound
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41097401
Scottish skiing bookings rise 600% leading Wee Nippy (remember her?) to argue that she was a quitter all along. Snow melts the text day, and she reverts to blowing with the wind.
You'll get 86 cents at Southampton airport, although that's as much down to the rip off money changers as brexit
Hmm, shall we....? 😉
@igm yup I agree we'll see a test of parity or below. That's how the fx markets work. I am trying to time bringing my pension investments back into the UK/£ from the $ / Asian currencies. My wife (herself an asset mgr) is looking to bring her $ pension investments into £, she hates the € too btw
We all hate the € (save perhaps Edukator)
By asset manager I assume you mean funds not real assets - I used to train folk in managing real assets.
Timing the repatriation of your overseas slush fund? 😉
Well as THM and I discussed some time ago, if the markets are working properly buying specifics might work, but given the outside UK earnings of a lot of UK companies a general shift won't make much difference. I'd keep them in healthier countries.
I would be in favour of a NAFTA style free trade zone, with no freedom of movement
Hmm. So let's talk freedom of movement.
[b]Positives[/b]
1. Businesses can get cheap labour
2. People from poorer countries can get decent jobs and money
3. People can escape places where prospects are poor and have more choice for good prospects
4. People can experience different countries and broaden their outlook
5. Money can flow into poorer countries
[b]Negatives[/b]
6. Possible brain drain for poorer countries
7. Possible money drain for richer countries
Point 7 seems to have been debunked though, as this seems not to happen. Immigration seems to grow an economy. So we're left with point 6 as a possible downside.
Am I right?
She managed funds of funds and funds containing assets such as bonds and equities. Outside her professional career she manages (part time) family real estate, commercial and residential in Paris.
Moly - let's take it to its illogical extreme.
Folk from Hull should be banned from taking good jobs in London without first getting a London work permit. Don't want them to be a drain on the budgets of London LAs
Just money then really, not the interesting stuff Jamba.
Come try the stuff that matters sometimes. Focuses the mind when if you get it wrong, losing millions is the least of your worries.
@molgrips freedom of movement undermines wages and working conditions. Trying to protect them via in country legislation is pointless as people just come and work locally but are paid by the out of country contractor at out of country rates. See Macron's viist to Eastern Europe this week where he has been trying to reduce this, France has a particular issue with Polish companies doing this. Remember Ryan Air did this too with their maintainence facility in Marseilles (now shut down).
You'll get 86 cents at Southampton airport
In terms of holiday money we all know you'll get dicked at the airport but Thomas Cook are generally decent rates for exchanging before hand, we're basically at parity already.
And the trend is only going in one direction.
And I can't see our strong and stable government doing anything about it other than devalue the pound further.
No IGM
1. Companies that delivery goods and services
2. (Ok the financing of 1)
3. Fixed assets
All v interesting and hard to do. A v bright lady
(Jamba pls keep,me in touch rebturning point in Fr property 😉 )
jambalaya - Member
@molgrips freedom of movement undermines wages and working conditions.
For Britain at least this has been substantially disproven.
In fact it stimulates the economy and increases the number of jobs available.
However I agree it limits the ability of certain specific workers to impose overly high prices on the marketplace
jambalaya - Member
@molgrips freedom of movement undermines wages and working conditions.
It doesn't, but you know that mol?
[Now 1 / 1.09 ish is......? Oh forget it ]
THM - not saying she isn't bright or hardworking. Just suggesting that if when you get it wrong people die, then it focuses the mind. We also loose not insignificant sums of cash when we get it wrong, but that's easier (not easy) to live with.
I missed your edit - the original was a little rude and from personal experience off the mark as I have met Mrs J 😉
For Britain at least this has been substantially disproven.
A point which has been made over and over again to the oft-repeated (or as a professional would term it, "compulsive") lie.
THM - I'm a terrible writer, always have been. I thought it was rude too.
But I like to think I'm a better editor.
PS - I do as someone once said hate being rude accidentally.
The stupid new fonts don't help either especîally with apple autocorrect and weakening eyesight 😉
I post, and then edit, every time. I can't really read what I'm typing on this iPad with the new STW site, and using the preview functiion is pointless as well (preview is under the iPad keyboard).
The EU immigrants undermining wages thing has long since been debunked as a myth, right?
Anecdote alert !....
Got a plasterer ( mate of my brother) in to do some work last year at time of referendum, (I'll do every DIY job bar that - im shit at it!)
He was adamant the polish guys were undercutting him and cheating the system.... then insisted we pay cash in hand, because he didn't want to go over his tax threshold that year
We got into a bit of an argument about Brexit
He unfriended me on Facebook when I sent him something like this...
http://specfinish.co.uk/plasterers-top-skills-shortage-list/
But then sent me a message saying he was still available if we needed any more plastering !
Fwiw had a very similar argument with my brother he's an electrician and refused to believe electricians were on UK skilled worker shortage list , but he hasn't fb unfriended me & also doesn't charge me for work
Annecdote time again...
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41119355
Sales of vacuum cleaners producing more noise and heat than suction are banned under EU rules from today.
Vacuum cleaners using more than 900 watts and emitting more than 80 decibels are no longer allowed in Europe's shops.
Some anti-EU campaigners say homes won't be properly cleaned if people have to buy lower wattage machines.
But energy experts say the best low-power appliances clean just as well as high-wattage machines.
They say some manufacturers deliberately increased the amount of electricity their appliances use because shoppers equate high-wattage with high performance.
The EU's own website says: "With more efficient vacuum cleaners, Europe as a whole can save up to 20 TWh of electricity per year by 2020.
"This is equivalent to the annual household electricity consumption of Belgium. It also means over 6 million tonnes of CO2 will not be emitted - about the annual emissions of eight medium-sized power plants."
There we go again the EU stopping us having a super turbo charged bag of useless parts, saving us money and halping the environment. I'm so glad they are more than a trading organisation and are taking this sort of stuff seriously.
freedom of movement undermines wages and working conditions
Surely quite the opposite? The less restrictions on labour movement the more the ability for the workforce to find appropriate work and conditions.
Some anti-EU campaigners say homes won't be properly cleaned if people have to buy lower wattage machines
Brilliant.
One of my mates who works for a large recreational clothes company says generally the Polish are thieves so they have checks in the distribution centre upon leaving.
Yeah, so if it was 100% indigenous workforce there wouldn't be any theft?
Brexit's underbelly is built on veiled logic like this.
It's less a type of rascim though and more an insecurity I believe, which does breed rascim.
FT reporting large outflows from European funds due to concerns over pain of stronger Euro!!
They are hearing the sqealing I referred to yesterday ^
I liked this one
Where angry leave voters are surprised how complicated Brexit has turned out to be
https://www.ft.com/content/a9439086-8e4d-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d
Who could've guessed !