now remoaners blaming everything on Brexit.
Nah id say Tory incompetence is responsible for most of the bad stuff
IMO the chart shows how far the UK has fallen, and that the Brexiteers fail to realise just how insignificant the UK now is. This is not a recent issue but a long term trend. Yes, maybe it is possible to turn around however looking at the current evidence, education, government, investment etc. It really doesn't look hopeful. The conditions that gave the UK power, Empire, no longer exist and can't be simply replicated.
It's the whole reality/fantasy thing with the brexiteers. The debate on five live yesterday perfectly illustrated this yawning chasm.
Some pompous, double-barrelled Tory arse was saying that the indigenous unemployed (who according to his boss are fewer in number than ever before) will now fill the fruit-picking jobs vacated by the now absent EU workers
The other guy ran a recruitment company now struggling to fill these roles, so was probably a bit more clued up on the realities, rather than empty tub-thumping rhetoric.
He pointed out the inconvenient fact that the jobs were in Somerset and East Anglia but the unemployment black spots were in Hull, so there may be an issue with logistics
He pointed out the inconvenient fact that the jobs were in Somerset and East Anglia but the unemployment black spots were in Hull, so there may be an issue with logistics
Easily solved, they can relocate and live in caravans on site. If it is good enough for the Immigrants why not for the unemployed? Bring back indentured servitude for the many not the few.
I'm waiting for Iain Duncan Smith to propose a 'work experience' program where they sleep underneath tarpaulins in a ditch for a daily gruel ration
Pigface - MemberAppears the all those students that stay on after their studies have finished is a myth.
A lie? From the Leave campaign? Surely not? Who'd have thunk it?
Nah id say Tory incompetence is responsible for most of the bad stuff
Odd viewpoint when both our major parties are essentially in the same place on Brexshit with the only difference being that one is having to exercise the result of the vote and the other is relived from that onerous duty.
If automation is going to decimate the lives of the low skilled and low paid, what has that got to do with our membership of the EU?
If automation is going to decimate the lives of the low skilled and low paid, what has that got to do with our membership of the EU?
Indeed. But equally will leaving the EU help? Probably not if you need a decent economy to provide for those less fortunate.
Which of course we do not 😯
Leaving or staying in the EU will make little if any difference to the advance of automation. The unskilled face a grim future either way.
one is having to exercise the result of the vote and the other is relived from that onerous duty.
You mean "one has decided to exercise the result of the vote"
Well they could have ignored it I guess despite making the firm commitment otherwise - democracy is so bloody inconvenient when people don't do what they are told isn't it?
The unskilled face a grim future either way.
Yep. But one side promised them milk and honey
He pointed out the inconvenient fact that the jobs were in Somerset and East Anglia but the unemployment black spots were in Hull, so there may be an issue with logistics
They're poor people, they can live in mold ridden caravans and pay for the privelage!
No they didn't - but one of the reasons why we lost was the fact that we patronised them by saying things like that - oh, and failing to present a clear and positive argument for why the deal Dave struck was a good as it gets*. We are as much to blame, if not more. We missed an open goal and now try to blame the opposition - bizarre.
* but he was a toff, OD and a Tory so obviously was out to stuff the poor and unskilled to protect his mates obviously 😯
All the unskilled immigrants that were nicking their jobs / undercutting their wages would be sent home and the indigenous unskilled would have more jobs and a better quality of life? Don't remember that THM?
Fundamentally though I agree with you on this one - they're stuffed.
We are as much to blame, if not more. We missed an open goal and now try to blame the opposition
Spent quite a while trying to convince friends and family that the EU wasnt the cause of all society's ills, they just regurgitated thee same mostly anti-immigrant/ bendy banana nonsense they read in the papers, my mum (maternity nurse for 30 years) is still certain the NHS will be getting its 350m pw....
After a while you just have to accept that a lot of people are just thick as ****
I have moved from denial of these people to acceptance....
We are as much to blame, if not more. We missed an open goal and now try to blame the opposition - bizarre.
It wasn't an open goal, 40 years of anti EU articles, certain sections of society that are racist, and the promise of £350M. Add to this the stupidity of certain politicians and here we are. Then the minor issue of how the electorate was decided, disenfranchising a large number of those who will be affected.
After a while you just have to accept that a lot of people are just thick as ****
And unfortunately several of them are in government.
sleep underneath tarpaulins in a ditch for a daily gruel ration
We're all bikepackers now you know... 😉
but he was a toff, OD and a Tory so obviously was out to stuff the poor and unskilled to protect his mates obviously
You missed out pig-f*****r.
That's why [i]you[/i] lot lost it.... (less of the we shit ifn yer doesn't mind sunshine... 😉 )
"You lot"???? I didn't have you down as a leaver metal head. Every day is a learning day.
indigenous unskilled would have more jobs and a better quality of life? Don't remember that THM?
Sorry I didn't give Corbyn's views much traction. But your right, the labour view is very much that (hidden or otherwise) with the pretence that membership is good for workers rights to fool both sides.
Still we now have pro-EU Macron arguing Labour's corner for them. Good on' protectionism, a French special
THM - what I mean is the whole debacle was fumbled from the get go by the pig-f*****r in general, calling a referendum that wasn't required just to try and appease some Tory schism. [i]That's[/i] why we're in the (brex)shit
So, [i]your[/i] lot lost it. Don't go dragging [b]us[/b] into it.... 😆
Im holding you personally responsible 😉
Damn right. Labour might be as useful as a chocolate teapot but it's the Tories who have actually ****ed up the country.
Fun headline I saw yesterday: "Brexit, Britain's worst foreign policy since the War of US Independence".
and this ... 😀
you gotta laugh eh?
[img] 
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Metal heart - i don't care what you hold, but don't go labelling me falsely. I have no party allegiance at all. As you can see from the start of this thread, I thought the whole idea was flawed from the beginning. How can you vote on something that isn't going to exist in its current format in the future. Absurd waste or time and money.
But WE - those who were arguing to remain - still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it. The latter is a modern trend, granted. It's like blaming the Engkish....
Sorry THM, the pig-f****r ****-ed it up due to a Tory schism, it was **** all to do with me (or the scots for that matter). Then the old PF ran away... talk about shirking.
Jeez, you want me to take responsibility for the Holocaust because 'we' appeased Hitler?
I'm laying blame, because, after all, it was [i]his[/i] fault.
And labelling falsely, this started because you falsely labelled me as a leaver. Let he who is without sin, etc. :p
Oh, I can honestly say, I've never blamed the [i]Engkish[/i] for anything. Ever 😆
😯
But WE - those who were arguing to remain - still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it.
No-one is reponsible for something they fought against and continue to fight againt however meager their efforts. History has never held the maquisards responsible for the acts of the Vichy government.
Sobotage anything overtly pro-Brexit.
But WE - those who were arguing to remain - still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it.
THM - you're going to have to do that one again. Slowly.
Responsibility for what? Arguing an open and shut case badly? The mess that the referendum has left us in? (Unlike you I'm actually surprised at how bad it's looking at the moment prior to us actually leaving)
Or perhaps in a democracy it is everyone's responsibility to espouse and support the causes they believe in?
It is I think a democratic obligation to continue to oppose Brexit - unless the Brexies manage to do something to convince me that Brexit is a good thing in which case I'll join them.
Mods can Edukator have reformed troll removed and voice of reason inserted?
My responsibility ends at the bigoted brexiteers' ****witted refusal to listen to reason or think for themselves.
It is I think a democratic obligation to continue to oppose Brexit - unless the Brexies manage to do something to convince me that Brexit is a good thing in which case I'll join them.
I keep on asking and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the benefits gained by leaving that outweigh the benefits lost by staying. Just spouting about immigration, which was a WM issue and sovereignty which was never lost.
Unlike you I'm actually surprised at how bad it's looking at the moment prior to us actually leaving)
I'm really starting to think that Davis (constructive ambiguity ffs!) & co are setting us up for a hard Brexit, rather than admit the truth to the voters they are lining us up for a fall & obvs it'll all be the evil Eurocrats to blame
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4316796/david-davis-set-to-launch-battle-plan-against-eu/
I know it's in the scum, but I'm sure the telegraph, mail etc will all be lining us up for how its all the EUs fault too
Just can't decide if it's cowardice in the face of a challenge they can't handle, pure arrogance or just plain stupidity, probably all 3?
...aaand Starmer steps up as the voice of reason
Responsibility for what? Arguing an open and shut case badly?
Exactly. We did a bad job. Whining on about opposing Brexshit now is simply sad.
We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions
With the EU playing their classic non negotiating tactic and our inability to present a united front the likelihood of a bad outcome increases by the day. That's absurd and the weight of that responsibility will weigh even heavier than our inability to convince people not to leave. We could shirk that too, and just bury our heads in the sand though.
Nah not giving up THM , it's not over until the fat lady has sung, as hard as it is there's still a chance to stop the self harm!
So in your heart of hearts do you think that we will not leave the EU?
No I'm resigned to it but I'll fight em on the beaches etc.
Seeing the harm already being done to science as some very good researchers are returning to the EU already, I can only see it damaging the country for my kids!
It's worth challenging em to the last.
Exactly. We did a bad job. Whining on about opposing Brexshit now is simply sad.We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions
Rolling over at this point presents the current shambolic tory minority with a mandate to do whatever they want. At this point they know they have to get something at least half decent and when 2 years comes around if there is a sniff of no confidence (there will be) it will be the true 2nd referendum on the topic. Until the papers are signed the UK hasn't sent itself to the gallows. Providing a robust opposition to the current government is key to that.
A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don't matter.
Long term that's just as bad for the nation as the damage that leaving the EU will inflict.
A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don't matter.
No it doesn't. Same as punishment doesn't stop crime.
What I said was an election following the collapse of the very expensive minority Tory government around the time of the end of the negotiations (which won't be looking good) could enable a party to stand on the tactical withdrawal from the A50 process. That isn't a second referendum.
Would you sacrifice the long term furure of the country for teaching people a lesson?
Would you sacrifice the long term furure of the country for teaching people a lesson?
I would say it's more the tories willing to sacrifice the long term future of the country simply to stop their party tearing itself apart. They are that selfish
THM, what exactly are "we" supposed to be doing to ensure a good brexit when a year and more down the line this shambles of a govt can't come up with anything resembling a plan?
Is mindlessly cheerleading May and co all you can offer or do you have a more useful suggestion? I'm all ears.