Why is it misguided? Because the capitalist model the Tories have in mind post-Brexit will make the EU look like Venezuela (pre-recent entirely forgivable unpleasantness, obvs)
But then, I suppose if your political opinions haven't shifted since 1973.....?
Is there a hint of exaggeration there Binns?
I did see some RFPs to build some private sector workhouses recently so perhaps you are correct....
Like I said earlier, if Jezza thinks that Brexit will herald in some 70's style vision of re-nationalised industry and collectivism, then he's the most deluded man in the country.
Faced with the choice of capitalism, German style, or the full on turbo-charged American model, as a socialist you'd opt for the Trump model, obviously
they key point there is if he thinks this
The brief hiatus of your joy post election seems to have morphed back to outraged of the North once more 😛
I dont support his position on Brexit but I dont think he thinks that leaving it heralds a new dawn of a socialist utopia either
Its possible to both dislike the Eu and not support the Tory model.the capitalist model the Tories have in mind post-Brexit will make the EU look like Venezuela
I doubt they will be in power post Brexit anyone unless of course the Labour party decides to continue to self harm over Corbyn - do you?
Why do you keep going on about the 70s? Corbyn wants a social democracy, what's so inherently 70s about that? He believes the EU is a barrier to social democracy due to it's neo-liberal, free market outlook. It is against state intervention that interferes with competition.
Cranking up the hyperbole adds nothing to your argument.
Everything's relative
Is the EU not a social democracy then?
Careful what you wish for
It is against state intervention that interferes with competition.
How very dare they?
The Euro has been a very effective weapon for increasing inequality, killing jobs and wages and destroying the lievihoods of many of EU's young so you can see why old Jexzza might not be a fan
From Webster
social democracy: a political movement that uses principles of democracy to change a capitalist country to a socialist one
So no, EU is not a social democracy.
I'd say Germany is as close to the model of a social democracy as your ever going to get in our globalised economy.
And Hurty.... you cheeky wee scamp..... you're the one who's always telling us the EU and the Euro are not the same thing 😀
I know this because I've always agreed with you. The EU is a great idea. The Euro is abject stupidity that flies in the face of all the laws of economics
For balance
Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice [b]within the framework of a capitalist economy, [/b]as well as a policy regime involving a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, and regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions.[1][2][3] Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Northern and Western Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.
So yes, could easily be considered one - at least before the euro screwed all those nice objectives up of course.
True, Binns just adding a bit of colour 😉 and testing the water levels 😀
Apart from the measures for income redistribution bit. The EU only aims to redistribute income to the capitalist classes.
It may be semantics but Corbyn is more of a democratic socialist than a social democrat.
Part of the Treaty of Rome?
I think that Webster's definition is a little American.
They also equate liberal and communist in parts of the US - don't trust them with political definitions, or at least not ones that make sense in this country.
And Binners, THM and me all agreeing on the EU and Euro - I think we've found our En Marche! 😉
THMacron?
I'm not sure what political definitions make sense on this country if people seriously think the EU is a social democracy.
Can I be first lady?
Is there a a minister for pasties?
Think i might knock up a couple of sweat shops or maybe a Mill or Pit - its a Tory wet dream getting the poor back in the yoke.
More like 1850 than 1950
Binners
I
would say the low countries and Scandinavia are rather good examples of social democracies. A social democracy is a broad church from right of centre to left of centre
A good job we'll be having nothing to do with those losers either then, eh?
Time to turbo-charge the anglo-Saxon model of capitalism instead, and Make Britain Great Again
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It's a sad irony that Jezzas far left are facilitating the most right wing lunacy ever carried out, by their misguided 70's view that the EU is an evil capitalist conspiracy.
Maybe they just remember how the kind and fluffy EU reacted when the Greeks had the effrontery to elect a left government and on top of that had the damned cheek to suggest that the Euro club was not being run for the benefit of all its members!!
the laws of economics
Economics has laws? Who knew?
There's some selective cause and effect going on there?
So the Greek crisis was all down to those nasty Germans, and nothing whatsoever to do with successive Greek governments cooking the books to join the Euro in the first place, borrowing shedloads of money they knew they couldn't possibly repay, and the population all deciding that they were entitled to a highly paid public sector job, but they wouldn't be paying any tax?
Oh ... ok then.
Bloody Germans! The Bastards!
You're right... we're best off out of it, and we should be showing more solidarity with our left wing Greek brothers, as they fight the evil capitalist conspiracy that is the EU!
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So the Greek crisis was all down to those nasty Germans,
That's not what I said, so no point responding to the rest of your diatribe.
yes economics has laws - something politicians ignore at their peril in the LT - hence we KNOW that the Euro is toast. It confounds basic laws of currency arrangements - hence the damage that it continues to exert across Europe
There are two sided to every story. The Germans are as much to blame as the Greeks. Montagues and Capulets in the same misguided love agair. Pity the young in that story....
Indeed Hurty. The Euro is a ridiculous and unworkable nonsense. And it is indeed six of one, and half a dozen of the other when it comes to the inevitable crises. But I was just highlighting the ludicrous attitude of Corbyn and the left towards the EU.
If only there were some way of being in the EU but outside the Euro? Surely that would be perfect? The best of both worlds?
Oh....
something politicians ignore at their peril in the LT
Supposing that politicians give a flying fart about the LT. That's someone else's problem - the young mostly.
ut I was just highlighting the ludicrous attitude of the left towards the EU.
And I was highlighting the rose tinted specs that some people use when viewing the EU. It has benefits, and I voted Remain, but it's far from perfect even beyond the mess that is the Euro.
I couldn't agree more. The EU is profoundly undemocratic.
But in this case it is most definitely the lesser of two evils
I walked away from this thread some time ago, it wasn't helping my frame of mind if I'm honest. Most of us agree Brexit is probably a disaster, those that don't, don't care, they're happy for others to pay the price.
But feel I should drop this here as I recall Jamba saying loss of the EU's agencies was of no consequence to the UK. "Good riddance", in effect.
Loved JRM trying to explain that trying to overturn Brexit is anti-democratic.
Given we all agree he's a bright if misguided and self-centred lad, he knows that all democracies overturn previous votes. It's what they do. The only question is does one do it via the ballot box or debating chamber (democratic) or via force or corruption (undemocratic).
Of those the Brexies and Brexit seems to be in the corrrupt, undemocratic area.
😯
[the only important news in past 48 hours is the growing, if incomplete, consensus amoung the Gov as to the nature of the transition period - progress....]
Keep negotiating guys and girls...
To negotiate you need aims and objectives, not sure there is a consensus around those two things...
IS that because the majority of the MPs and probably the public now oppose it that its anti democratic or is it because he is massively pro Brexit?Loved JRM trying to explain that trying to overturn Brexit is anti-democratic.
I am not really sure how we get another vote given Mays insistence but it will take some cross party rebellion by both sets of Mps's against their leaders.
It may well come to this but at this moment in time I see little likelihood of such a scenario but it could occur if Brexit negotiations are a total shambles/complete mess.
Hum interesting not a single post from the Remainers on the EU Commissioners travel disgrace or the Polish Chlorine / Formaldahide chicken issue (required treamsnt to stem Salmonella outbreak) or Dutch egg scandal. EU vested interests in farming to the fore mixed with that epically proportioned EU gravy train.
It's taken 3 years of legal battles to get the EU to disclose [b]anything[/b] about their travel and even then they refuse to release any detail other a brief 2 month period. Private Jets Brussels to Strasbourg. Remember these are civil servants not heads of Government (well excpet in their minds where the contrary is the case). I saw a piece on Newsnight where someone was tryin to compare Junker's trip to Rome to Theresa May's trip to see Trump. Internal EU meeting versus going to meet the keader of the most powerful nation on earth undertaken by our elected head of state.
https://order-order.com/2017/08/09/eu-mired-summer-food-safety-scandals/
https://order-order.com/2017/08/09/junckers-junkets-commissioners-spend-e500000-travel-two-months/
Criticise the EU, point its flaws and required fixes? Absolutely. It's far from perfect.
But leave the EU to improve food safety? Get real.
If there is a second referendum and leave win it again, would you accept the result? or would you campaign for a 3rd ,4th etc?
I'm open to a 2nd referendum if it looks like something material has changed, but I dont think it has
Post Brexit farming regulation explained.....
Julians - Well given remain won the first referendum and leave the second...
No, you accept the result of course, and I do, but not the position which you keep fighting. That's democracy. We get to keep on fighting for what we believe in
Same as Farage who said before the second referendum that if it was 52:48 he'd want a third referendum.
julians I think I'd keep campaigning until I decide leaving is good for the country, the young in particular.
but you're right now is certainly not the time for a second referendum. when the real world conequences of leaving start to become evident, that may be it, because leave voters will truly know what they are voting for.
personally I also struggle with the concept that other people voting my valued rights off me without my consent, and off my daughter, who was born with them, is democracy. double that when it's the elderly (in my family too) who quite frankly have no skin in the game and are voting about how they feel about what happened 40 years ago, regardless of the consequences on those who have to live the best years of their lives with the result.
(as you see, no, I'm not over it) ;-).
[quote=julians ]If there is a second referendum and leave win it again, would you accept the result? or would you campaign for a 3rd ,4th etc?
Personally I would accept a vote if it was informed and not one with unachievable goals and blatant lies. Its obvious we wont get what Leave campaigned for as it was at the time.
the will of the people and the move from soft to hard Brexit?I'm open to a 2nd referendum if it looks like something material has changed, but I dont think it has
More popel realise the "arc of propseroity" leving the EU was pie in the sky and the crushing if "red tape" means the erosion of your rights?
I think a hard core of voters will always be remain and some [ THM} will accept it now and "get on with it"
A number will always remain opposed to the result
Me less because of the result and more because of how it was won - lies, BS and more lies
Its fair to say Remain also did a risible campaign of fear, fear and more fear till the only money left safe was the money in my kids piggy bank
get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunch
Bon Appetit
-- redacted, not worth it.