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Both Varadkar and Junker have told the Irish Parliament there will be no hard border in event of no deal as well.
So where is the border between the EU and the UK? In the Irish sea?
how large was the pro-Brexit rally in London at the weekend?
There's no official reports (yet?) as far as I know. The protesters themselves claimed about 15,000. I would be very shocked if that wasn't something of an optimistic figure.
Those who are fearful of the effect on democracy have the ability to vote to keep the result whatever their true will.
I'm glad you said this, because I think it's a very real problem that we'd be foolish to ignore. Aside from swathes of voters buying "the will of the people" mantra wholesale, there's plenty of people expressing exactly that sentiment in vox pops. The gammons and gutter press have been sowing for weeks now the notion that another vote is undemocratic.
It absolutely astounds me that we've manage to convince the public of "facts" which are self-evidently blatant nonsense: that a vote is somehow undemocratic rather than the very definition of democracy; that "no deal" is something anyone could ever want in any situation; and that a good chunk of the electorate isn't as thick as pig slurry.
Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.
Dubious utility?
1) We're bombarded with media every day, for hours. Being able to understand when we're being lied to or manipulated would be absolutely massive.
2) Most of us can agree that the current politicians involved in this shitshow are utterly useless. Why? Cos they can bullshit their way through elections and most people don't realise. This is because a) lots of people don't really understand politics (see also the number of people who don't vote, they don't understand it so they ignore it) and also people are easily manipulated by the media (see 1 above).
3) Most people believe in public services and the NHS, most people want to help out their fellow humans and everyone hates a rich fatcat. But they still end up voting for the party that looks after the rich fatcats, because they don't really understand what the parties stand for and what the implications of that are. And they allow themselves to be hoodwinked into think that the Tories actually want to help them - see 1 again.
You want a democracy, but you don't think teaching people about the issues on which they are meant to vote is important? I think you need some lessons yourself 🙂
I reckon May will be announcing shortly that she has applied for political asylum in Europe.
Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.
Given we have failed to teach people that you need to let people get off public transport before you can get on its going to be an uphill task.
May's policy is becoming obvious, deflect, duck, avoid and try and spin. Like the gambler trying to win back the cab fare home it's not going to work. The Brexiters are still chanting their hollow lies as they know the alternative to her deal is revoke not crash out.
I would love to see the clarification on the backstop to be an explicit definition that it only ends if a new deal is agreed that meets the requirements of the gfa.
interesting theory
also rumours 48 letters has been reach after "mod swing" in the party.
Interesting but the deal won't pass without the DUP. They flip when she fails on the backstop promises.
Given we have failed to teach people that you need to let people get off public transport before you can get on its going to be an uphill task.
I must've missed public transport lessons in school. If we had them, I honestly think it would help! People sometimes need obvious stuff pointing out before they go 'oh yeah' and feel silly doing it. I'm sure there's a psychological reason for this. Something like group behaviour effect.
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
Indeed.
Something the no deal nutters either don’t understand or most likely simply don’t care about.
There was a terrifying statistic in the paper saying that over two thirds of leave voters literaly couldn't give a shit about a hard border in Ireland. Though I think the way they worded it was that it was 'a price worth paying'
I casually wondered to myself if they'd still think it was 'a price worth paying' if they were subjected to a merciless punishment beating by a load of men in balaclavas with baseball bats in a field outside Crossmaglen, then left in a ditch?
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
Count my mother in that statistic.
they were subjected to a merciless punishment beating by a load of men in balaclavas with baseball bats in a field outside Crossmaglen, then left in a ditch?
Aah, the good old days.
Foster was saying that the backstop has to go for dup to be appeased, obvs the RoI government or indeed the EU is going to agree to that. Wonder how big a bribe they'll want now or maybe they'll just get sold down the river.
Just for the sake of, well, reality, imagine I’m thick, so explain the above in terms I might understand. Avoid condescension.
So you say you are a centrist but then want it explaining? Why did you confuse it with being the opposite of party allegiance?
As it happens I think this is one of the main problems with the centrists, especially those who actively get engaged with politics. Instead of going for a "centrist" party they try and piggy back of the left and right parties hoping that the normal party voters wont abandon their party. Works for a while but then fails.
The CBI bloke on the news earlier was saying they that after this weeks shenanigans they’re putting the chances of a no deal Brexit, and the resulting chaos, at 60-70%.
So much for ‘The Party of Business’ eh?
And Adult political re-education in later life?
I'm sure McDonnell is looking at setting up such an establishment on the Isle of Man should Labour win a majority in an election.
Instead of going for a “centrist” party they try and piggy back of the left and right parties hoping that the normal party voters wont abandon their party.
Which country do you vote in? We have First Past the Post here… the main party of government and the official opposition are always the same two parties.
the main party of government and the official opposition are always the same two parties.
Thats my point. Same parties but some rather different policies over the last few years which has left the core voters for those parties wondering who were representing them and being vulnerable to the populist parties promising to replace them.
At least TM has been consistent throughout this..
1.)She never listens
2.)She never answers
At least TM has been consistent throughout this
I am amazed she hasnt walked away by now. Although then again I was amazed that she was mad enough to want the job in the first place.
Rumours that Brady has more than 48 letters?
binners
There was a terrifying statistic in the paper saying that over two thirds of leave voters literaly couldn’t give a shit about a hard border in Ireland.
I suspect they'd happily ditch Scotland too.
Where do I go to stir them into action? 🙂
There was a terrifying statistic in the paper saying that over two thirds of leave voters literaly couldn’t give a shit about a hard border in Ireland. Though I think the way they worded it was that it was ‘a price worth paying
Was arguing with some quarter wit on the guardian Facebook page earlier. He openly admitted he did not care about the economy and was only interested in sovereignty
Sovereignty won't pay your mortgage when the economy tanks and you lose your job you absolute ****ing clownshoe🙄
So, Dissonance, this:
“For example you seem to be confusing supporting a political party as being the opposite of centrist. Which to put it mildly is somewhat odd. “
Just for the sake of, well, reality, imagine I’m thick, so explain the above in terms I might understand. Avoid condescension.
Is apparently answered by this (for it was a simple request):
So you say you are a centrist but then want it explaining? Why did you confuse it with being the opposite of party allegiance?
As it happens I think this is one of the main problems with the centrists, especially those who actively get engaged with politics. Instead of going for a “centrist” party they try and piggy back of the left and right parties hoping that the normal party voters wont abandon their party. Works for a while but then fails.
You are a proper clever little sausage, aren't you?
Rumours that Brady has more than 48 letters?
Nah, there's only five there.
Money's not important until there isn't any......
The only people who put forward such bollocks about sovereignty are the ones that dont belive they will suffer. Sadly (or maybe not) most are clinically delusional.
And guess ****ing what they will all shout "we didn't vote for this" and its the remainers fault for not getting behind Brexit.
Thick as shit.
I heard 26 letters earlier today..
However, even if they do have the letters, I think May would survive a no confidence vote.
What needs to happen is the 'meaningful vote' needs to be forced, which she will lose.
I suspect it will be forced when she comes back with no concessions.
I’m sure McDonnell is looking at setting up such an establishment on the Isle of Man should Labour win a majority in an election.
Mods! Binners has hacked deadlydarcy's account.
Once they have enough letters do they have to act, or can they sit on them for a (brief) period waiting for the right time?
I assume the backstabbing MPs can also withdraw their letters if they wish, thus creating a degree of urgency?
Once they have enough letters do they have to act, or can they sit on them for a (brief) period waiting for the right time?
Was suggested it was only right to wait until she was back in the country, amazing how honourable this lot can be. At this point some were seeing it as a way to solidify her position, however get enough votes against a no confidence in the government comes into play, not sure any of them have much credibility left.
It's in internal Conservative matter, that's up to the Conservatives to decide between themselves...
.. as opposed to the leader of the opposition calling it, in which case there would have to be an open commons commons vote.
I think?
or can they sit on them for a (brief) period waiting for the right time?
I think the 1922 committee has the final say whether to have a vote or not. So depends if they listen to the Will Of The People, sorry, MPs or not.
I assume the backstabbing MPs can also withdraw their letters if they wish, thus creating a degree of urgency?
Yes. Apparently some also have a habit of lying and saying they have sent a letter when they havent.
In fairness though I wouldnt call all of them backstabbers. Some seem keen to put the knife in the front and some of the others as many places as possible.
Pretty much agreed on learning about politics and media manipulation. Highly relevant life skills.
Mefty - you are in the wrong
Education breeds education though, critical thinking being the most fundamental thing.
Whilst I agree it would be nice, schools have enough trouble teaching literacy, maths and science to a decent level without throwing more 'core' subjects in.
Most 'life skills' rely on parents teaching thier children too. A school can't realistically do it all.
Most ‘life skills’ rely on parents teaching thier children too. A school can’t realistically do it all.
And quite a few parents won't bother to, it's a skill you can learn through a number of subjects though, History, Science, Economics even English so maybe it just needs a little more focus and some decent work form our National Media to engage in a meaningful way with young people.
Yeh I'd agree with that too.
I didn't go forward with history after school, but I remember a lot of it being about comparing conflicting sources and trying to ascertain what the truth might actually be, as opposed to simply 'learning' facts and figures.
Equally, History, Science, Economics, even English can be taught through Media Studies and Politics. Maybe we're just looking at things the wrong way? Wouldn't be the first time in education...
Anyway, all that's probably for a different thread.
Whilst I agree it would be nice, schools have enough trouble teaching literacy, maths and science to a decent level without throwing more ‘core’ subjects in.
But media studies are far more 'human' and relevant to most people than maths and science. I think it would be easier and more productive.
Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.
Couldn't agree less. Thanks to a modern studies teacher that gave a shit I walked out of school more clued up on media bias, how to actually look for accurate reporting (funnily enough it doesn't involve reading just one source that agrees with your viewpoint) and how government works than most of my peers. Perhaps if more people knew what confirmation bias was and that living in a media bubble was bad we wouldn't be having the ridiculous half witted political arguments we are and could get on with the actual important stuff.
But no, keep people ignorant, long live the status quo.
Yeh back on topic, if the Mogg squad call no confidence, and win, it will just mean a new tory leader & tory PM.
I'm not sure what the rules are if a cross party consensus calls no confidence.. Is it the individual or the party that gets the boot? A GE presumably?
I’m not sure what the rules are if a cross party consensus calls no confidence.
I think they can call for it and debate it, Tory leadership needs time so plenty to get it in there, if there is a sniff of a ERG madman at the helm then I can see a few tories doing the right thing
As squrrelking has said, Modern Studies is a certificate subject choice in Scotland. Pupils are taught about our place in the modern world and politics forms the basis of the course. This is a very worthwhile subject, and helps develop kids critical thinking skills.
What’s the betting that Rees Mogg and his ERG cronies have come over with a fit of the Dianne Abbott’s when it comes to counting how many letters they’ve actually got?!
Well it wouldn't be the first premature ejaculation.
All the wasted time and money could have been better spent repairing the potholes that blight the lives of the good people of Britain!
#saveusfromthepotholevortexapocalyspe
mattyfez - two differnt things.
The tories can call ( after the 48 letters) a vote of no confidence in May as Tory leader. Internal tory party affair and they just elect a new leader if she then fails the confidence vote - that person then takes over as PM
Or
labour put in a no confidence motion to the house in Mays Government - if they win that ( and they won't ATM) then 28 days for another government to be formed - if one cannot then a general election
If the Tories are going for a vote of no confidence in the PM could it be because they think there's a majority for a vote of no confidence in the government. A change of leader being an internal matter could avoid an election in the short term.
I reckon if that happens we'll end up with Gove as PM. Dear Lord.
Education breeds education though, critical thinking being the most fundamental thing.
Whilst I agree it would be nice, schools have enough trouble teaching literacy, maths and science to a decent level without throwing more ‘core’ subjects in.
Precisely, plenty of room within the current curriculum to teach the requisite skills, the danger is adding more and more to the school's load is you just get a cursory knowledge - far better to get a deeper understanding so you develop the skills. I certainly learnt the principles of how parliament works in History at the age of 10, alternatively you could read Trollope, likewise a study of Nazism gives a good introduction to the use of propaganda etc. Much of what you supposedly desire is already in the curriculum.
My understanding of Media Studies courses is they are very practical in terms of producing media so aren't really what you are looking for.
EDIT: Not aware of Modern Studies, when I was at school, modern study was Latin rather than Greek. We did something during A Level years called General Studies, but haven't a clue what we covered, but there was probably some politics.
Much of what you supposedly desire is already in the curriculum.
Why did you add 'supposedly' desire? I really do definitely desire it.
When I say media studies, what I mean is the ability to consume media critically, which I think is an element of some courses. I'm not suggesting GCSEs in these subjects by the way, they should be part of the personal development stuff that gets done these days.
They could take some hours from Geography though. That was a massive waste of time when I did it.
Because what you saw as being taught seems to be in this post
1) We’re bombarded with media every day, for hours. Being able to understand when we’re being lied to or manipulated would be absolutely massive.
2) Most of us can agree that the current politicians involved in this shitshow are utterly useless. Why? Cos they can bullshit their way through elections and most people don’t realise. This is because a) lots of people don’t really understand politics (see also the number of people who don’t vote, they don’t understand it so they ignore it) and also people are easily manipulated by the media (see 1 above).
3) Most people believe in public services and the NHS, most people want to help out their fellow humans and everyone hates a rich fatcat. But they still end up voting for the party that looks after the rich fatcats, because they don’t really understand what the parties stand for and what the implications of that are. And they allow themselves to be hoodwinked into think that the Tories actually want to help them – see 1 again.
Which is a load of twaddle and certainly has no place in any curriculum.
I still think a second ref should not be a consideration.
It's too volitile.
May's deal needs to be voted down ASAP.. Maybe her jolly was indeed just to cement the fact that the EU won't budge.
Let's get to critical mass sooner rather than later.
Then we can look over the cliff edge and decide if we really want to splatter onto the rocks below or keep standing on our grassy sunlight hills.
I still think a second ref should not be a consideration.
Then we can look over the cliff edge and decide
Who's 'we' in this second sentence? I don't think revoking A50 without a ref is going to be less volatile than a second ref.
Because what you saw as being taught seems to be in this post
Mefty I don't understand your post. What I saw as being taught? I've not cited any experience.. did you typo something?
Which is a load of twaddle and certainly has no place in any curriculum.
You'll have to come up with more than that if you want to avoid looking like you don't really have a point of your own.
There’s no way the MPs will revoke A50 without a R2. Look at the Lib Dem’s - destroyed over a tuition fee pledge they had no control over. This would be seen as far worse.
Modern studies basically covers post-war to present day history with a focus on politics and the mechanics of governments. It's a core subject (or was at my school) with an option to take it at Standard Grade and Higher (or whatever SVQ they have been replaced with).
Even at the basic 1st and 2nd year level it explains how our election system works and starts getting you engaged. Obviously teacher dependent though, we had a couple of exceptional ones to be honest, I imagine the wrong person could make it rather dry.
You’ll have to come up with more than that if you want to avoid looking like you don’t really have a point of your own.
My point was that what you wrote is twaddle and has no place in the curriculum, like any other twaddle.
Which is a load of twaddle and certainly has no place in any curriculum.
Are you arguing that teaching critical thinking has no place in the curriculum?
If no, I apologise for misunderstanding you and would welcome clarification as to what you mean.
If yes, you're an idiot.
There’s no way the MPs will revoke A50 without a R2. Look at the Lib Dem’s – destroyed over a tuition fee pledge they had no control over. This would be seen as far worse.
What would be far worse is a No Deal crash out so given choice of revoke A50 or No Deal what do you think they would do. Would they really still go with the 'will of the people' BS when it comes to that point?
yes they will - you must remember the tories aims here - to remove workers and environmental protections, to make the UK into a tax haven for tax avoidence and money laundering and to make more money for them.
yes they will – you must remember the tories aims here
The tory? All the tories? If the last 2 years hasn't shown they are not all.thinking the same nothing will.
My assumptions on May's strategy:
Basically "hoof it down the park"
She was going to lose this vote and very likely sink the government and let Corbyn in. This is the "#1 thing that must not happen"
Risks:
Labour vote of no confidence - unlikely to win - gives her more legitimacy
48 letters shenanigans - good chance of winning, gets the ERG off her back for a year. Gives her more legitimacy.
If she loses then the tories are still in government.
If both happen and she wins both then she claims a mandate again.
"#2 thing that must not happen" = cancel brexit
"#3 thing that must not happen" = no deal brexit
"#4 thing that must not happen" = 2nd referendum
By pushing the meaningful vote to the end of January, then it is too late for another referendum which stops things #2 and #4. Also too late to do anything else than "her deal" or no deal, so she squeaks her deal through as only alternative is no deal, as she is in charge and won't cancel or extend A50.
I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:
Theresa May to face leadership challenge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46535739
Ah downing Street now claiming that a leadership challenge will hurt our chances of a better deal.
Thank god democracy won’t be under attack with an unelected prime minister.
The Russians had better crank up their tweet bot.
Seriously though, who would you want to replace her? Apart from the fact that they are all idiots, tm any replacement wouldn't be in post until middle of Jan at earliest and new deal /vote due on 21st Jan. How can she negotiate that whilst fighting a leadership battle?
I'm surprised she doesn't just say sod it, I'm off, you lot get on with it, I didn't want brexit in the first place
What happens now if Labour go for a no confidence motion as well? Do we get to see the squirming of Tories who publicised their 1922 letters but then change to support the government in the parliamentary vote?
Well the beeb are reporting the erg will select one brexit candidate to represent them all, names include the new hair cut failure bojo, David "couldn't negotiate the easiest deal in history" Davies or Dominic "I wouldn't vote for what I delivered" Raaaaaaaab
Where is the sensible option?
Really?
I'm no fan of the PM, but we have maybe 100 days left until we leave, no deal signed and we are now spending today and tomorrow distracted by this?
Then if a new PM is needed, weeks of distraction.
And new PM is expected to just walk in, click thier heels and rustle up a 'better' deal that all sides agree on?
It's lala land..
Please let if be Nadine Dorries.
Can she stay pm without being conservative leader? What are the rules?
(I know she is then isolated politically)
And new PM is expected to just walk in, click thier heels and rustle up a ‘better’ deal that all sides agree on?
Of course, there is no good reason why she could not tell those pesky eu types how it should be.
One possible glimmer of hope is that should she survive the vote, the ERG will look like a proper bunch of chumps (moreso than normal) and will have to go off and lick their wounds having fired their last shot.
However, I think it more likely she survives but still loses the deal vote in Jan and UK no-deal crash out in March.
Well we know "Now is not the time" is already loaded into Maybot's software.
In fact "Let me be clear, now is not the time" would probably just about cover it
Can she stay pm without being conservative leader? What are the rules?
(I know she is then isolated politically)
no. She is PM because the largest party in the commons voted for her as the leader of the party.
Thepurist - I'm wondering that as well, at this point my only hope is that they are letting this shit show play out then pull the vote once the results are in. Once a parliamentary no confidence vote is concluded whoever is standing will have no option but to cancel A50 thanks to the constant dicking about of the other side be they Labour, Tory or whoever. Unless the winner is ERG in which case we really are screwed.
If someone could do something in time for the £ to recover a bit before I go to Spain, that'd be ace. Come on Government!