Forum menu
Ransos -- jingoistic little englander nationalists.
Seriously dude - all this hankering over empire and wanting to / believing we can punch above our weight is a pretty alien thing up here.
Its nearer 2.5 in 10 scots anyway now supporty brexit - we have our share of numpties as well
Photo's leak of current Brexit planning session....
the jingistic nationalism that drives brexit is not something you here much of in Scotland. Its certainly an english nationalism that stirs up anti europe feelings
the jingistic nationalism that drives independence is something you here much of in Scotland. Its certainly a scottish nationalism that stirs up anti british feelings
Two sides of the same coin IMO. Any bad reason for Brexit is a bad reason for Independence. And yet...
The idea that May has some machiavellian masterplan and is bent on self-sabotage is fun but obviously complete bollocks.
Yeah but it's hard to see how someone could be so utterly thick and get to be PM. That's even more depressing than any of Brexit. Unless she knows something we don't.
tjagain
Its nearer 2.5 in 10 scots anyway now supporty brexit – we have our share of numpties as well
Not so much numpties as devoted consumers of such literary masterpieces as the Daily Mail, Express etc.
I think the lesson from this is that the owners of mass media have too much concentrated power, and we need to fragment the ownership.
molgrips
...Unless she knows something we don’t.
Where the lost files are?
Don’t lump me in with the angry brigade.
Surrey voted Remain.
Yeah but it’s hard to see how someone could be so utterly thick and get to be PM. That’s even more depressing than any of Brexit. Unless she knows something we don’t.
Thick and piss poor at planning at not the same thing, I know lots of intelligent people who can't execute a plan they came up with.
She is leader because nobody else really wanted it - that bit she failed to work out.
the jingistic nationalism that drives brexit is not something you here much of in Scotland
I’ve been working down in england for the last 2 months. Farnborough to be precise. I’ve been staggered at how hard it is to find anyone that supports Brexit down here. I’ve asked pretty much everyone I’ve spoken to for any decent length of time. Only a taxi driver got a bit squirmy when I asked his position, which told me he probable voted leave but knew in the cold hard light of day, he couldn’t defend his position
"Don’t lump me in with the angry brigade.
Surrey voted Remain."
And 'my' local MP is Dominic-bloody-Raab in a 60+ percent remain constituency. Now, I wouldnt vote for any Tory round here (tho the councillors are actually not complete idiots), but how does deselection work... ? ;p
Anyone know which sacrificial lambs have drawn the short store from the two main parties and are on QT tonight?
I’ll take Farage as a given.
Seriously dude – all this hankering over empire and wanting to / believing we can punch above our weight is a pretty alien thing up here.
Oh come on. What was the Independence referendum, if not nationalism?
I never really saw it as nationalism, more of a recognition that the current model of how Britain works, ie Londoncentric, doesn't really work for us up here any more.
They think Derby is in the north ffs.
never really saw it as nationalism, more of a recognition that the current model of how Britain works, ie Londoncentric, doesn’t really work for us up here any more.
You could argue that about a lot of places.
never really saw it as nationalism, more of a recognition that the current model of how Britain works, ie Londoncentric, doesn’t really work for us up here any more.
Yeah and Birmingham has a population that is 1/5th of Scotland.... Sometimes it's about numbers
She is leader because nobody else really wanted it – that bit she failed to work out.
Yeah but she got to be Home Secretary of her own accord before all this.
I never really saw it as nationalism, more of a recognition that the current model of how Britain works, ie Londoncentric, doesn’t really work for us up here any more.
I'm sure there are many reasons for the indy vote just as there are many reasons for a leave vote.
Re BoardinBob - presumably you are some kind of reasonably well paid consultant or professional - the main predictor of remain vs leave vote was educational attainment. If you were down in Farnborough laying bricks or something I'm sure your findings would be different.
I'll just leave this here for folk who still can't understand that SNP is nothing like BNP
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46457341
TL:DR? The racist nutters in Scotland mainly vote for Unionist parties.
Yeah but she got to be Home Secretary of her own accord before all this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron%E2%80%93Clegg_coalition
Under the coalition, looking at the choices not much to go on there!! Anyway her record stands for itself there
She WILL bow to the people with No Deal.
Her political career will be strengthen tremendously if she goes for No Deal.
∆∆∆∆
Im not convinced he makes good points myself
'You could argue that about a lot of places'
I could, but I live here, not in those other places.
So watching QT, The Labour Party policy on Brexit is ‘we want a general election!’
Anything else Shami? Any other policies on Brexit? No? Ok... thanks for your input.
How are you going to get this general election then? Ask Theresa nicely?
Flawless plan! Prepare for government comrades!
What do we have to do to convince the SNP to start putting MP’s up for election south of the border? Theyre the only party talking any sense!
Ransos - Scotroutes has answered it but the drive for scottish independence is nothing like the drive for Brexit. Scottish independence is open, outward looking and not driven by hatred. Brexit on the other hand..................
This is an important Public Service Announcement.
The killfile - found here will improve your STW forum experience by 97%.
In the meantime, The S*n has published an editorial seemingly threatening another Jo Cox if angry Brexiteers don't get their way. We've gone from "sunlit uplands" via "the economy will really grow wings" to "trainers will be £6 cheaper" to incitement to riot.
The Brexiteers have truly lost the argument if this is all that they have.
Scottish independence is open, outward looking and not driven by hatred. Brexit on the other hand
Not all leavers are racists or hate foreigners. A lot of people have no idea why we spend all that money on EU membership. If you thought it was all a waste of time and it was all about unelected foreign officials bothering us with useless rules, why wouldn't you vote leave? It's not all about hatred.
squirrelking
the jingistic nationalism that drives independence is something you here much of in Scotland. Its certainly a scottish nationalism that stirs up anti british feelings
Nah, it's watching how Scottish issues get dealt with in the House of Commons.
It's EVEL.
I’ve been working down in england for the last 2 months. Farnborough to be precise. I’ve been staggered at how hard it is to find anyone that supports Brexit
Just because you couldn't find many doesn't mean they aren't there. Real life isn't a forum most people aren't interested in confrontation. If they meet someone asking how they voted they'll most likely go along with what they think you want to hear. Locally to me I'd say 2/3 of people voted to leave and thats staying firm, they just want it done and sorted. But they aren't going around fretting about it, their day to day lives are still whats important.
I'm a taxi driver and as far as I can remember I've had one person who's asked me straight out how I voted. As always I said politics and religion are never up for discussion in my cab.
'not much jingistic (sic) nationalism in scotland'. Thanks, that's hilarious.
So watching QT, The Labour Party policy on Brexit is ‘we want a general election!’
Anything else Shami? Any other policies on Brexit? No? Ok… thanks for your input.
Not sure how they are meant to implement a policy on Brexit without being a government though?
Here is a bit of official detail for you.
"Labour could do a better Brexit deal. Give us the chance"
A lot of people have no idea why we spend all that money on EU membership. If you thought it was all a waste of time and it was all about unelected foreign officials bothering us with useless rules, why wouldn’t you vote leave
Very true. That is why the Remain campaign should have educated people on the benefits of spending the money, the rules which are actually good and better than the UK would have come up with. They should have done the same with immigration.
If those keys things had been explained properly and people still voted Leave that would have been a different matter. I don't know many people that voted Leave but their understanding if very slim and when posed with a few simple questions they can't answer them because they have not looked into it but more importantly no-one has spoon fed them the information.
Not sure how they are meant to implement a policy on Brexit without being a government though?
Combined with being in a similar position to Tories. Just use the chance to try and get an election and once in power can at least implement stuff that is fairer and deal with Brexit fallout in a better way.
Absolutely. That would be a win - win.
Not all leavers are racists or hate foreigners. A lot of people have no idea why we spend all that money on EU membership. If you thought it was all a waste of time and it was all about unelected foreign officials bothering us with useless rules, why wouldn’t you vote leave? It’s not all about hatred
One particular 'friend' a local small businessman - sees it as a chance to do something different / better.
I get that. But it is a gamble at that level. Having had 40 years in , you could argue let's see in another 40 years what would be the benefits...
Argument for me would be though it's not worth the gamble. Particularly as the whole process will act as a screen for anything the Tories screw up.
"Ah well you voted Brexit."
at the risk of rehashing arguments from 1000 pages ago
leave went all sound bitey, with slogans on buses that were called out as false but that was dismissed as 'project fear' 'we don't trust experts any more' and so on, with the added problem that continuing to try to kill those lies put them further into the public eye, and strengthened people's belief in them.
I think I know why leave won and it's not all down to racists or idiots. And once the dust settled despite not liking the result, I respected the vote and believed we could make a fist of being outside, even if I sincerely think we are worse off for it.
But subsequently, there hasn't been a credible alternative offered to being in the EU. Sure there are alternatives but none are suitable, and now we are where we are.
Sure there are lots of people who still want out, and some are racists. Some are idiots. The ones that scare me most are those that either still want out because they simply cannot admit that what they are being served up is not what they thought they were getting, and those at the top that are doing it in order to cling to power or strengthen a hard capitalist agenda. But if leavers can't see what they're getting isn't what they wanted......then the chances of them seeing why the Johnsons and Moggs and others are so intent on their vision is even slimmer. But back to the start ..... if you point it out you're told 'project fear' or 'you have to get behind it and back it otherwise it'll fail and it'll be your fault' all over again.
Ransos – Scotroutes has answered it but the drive for scottish independence is nothing like the drive for Brexit. Scottish independence is open, outward looking and not driven by hatred. Brexit on the other hand………………
And you know this how? I can think of principled reasons for leaving the EU, just as there will be nationalist Scots motivated by hatred of the English. It's beyond daft to present English views as a monolithic entity.
leave went all sound bitey, with slogans on buses that were called out as false but that was dismissed as ‘project fear’ ‘we don’t trust experts any more’ and so on, with the added problem that continuing to try to kill those lies put them further into the public eye, and strengthened people’s belief in them.
Absolutely, a typical negative campaign being stronger.
Blame the marketing.
That "not at all facist" piece in the Sun…
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1070615613914140672?s=21
Have you been scared into supporting a hard Brexit yet?
Not sure how they are meant to implement a policy on Brexit without being a government though?
There is no Labour majority in parliament, therefore there is no Labour only path through this mess, agreed.
There is no Conservative majority in parliament, therefore there is no Conservative only path through this mess, either.
And that's before you look at how split the parties are.
Will a general election give either party a working majority? Doubt it.
Will Labour stand on anything other than red Brexit unicorns at a general election? Many MPs will, but clearly the Leader won't be up for it.
I want a general election as soon as possible. That doesn't solve this current mess though, does it. Time for more MPs of all parties to get behind cancelling/extending A50, to stop the clock, and then going back to the people with this. The Labour leader is currently clearly a big barrier to this happening.
I’ll take Farage as a given.
Is that while the BBC transition to Tommy Robinson as their preferred mouthpiece?
Will a general election give either party a working majority? Doubt it.
Depends how the landscape has changed.
Besides Labour would do more for the people that fall through the net after Out.
I think Farage has moderated a bit. He's nowhere near as ascerbic as before.
Buyer's remorse?
I also think it was as much about attention and a broadcasting career/ego too.
People (particularly those who think that Corbyn/Labour could step in and renegotiate) could benefit from reading this summary of how things stand with and in the EU.
Have you been scared into supporting a hard Brexit yet?
Its all a bit dictatorship via the ballot box isnt it? I do wish one of these muppets would clearly explain exactly what is undemocratic about having a second vote.
If the government had ignored the referendum and signed up to the Euro and Schengen area instead they might have a point but one vote and thats it isnt exactly democracy.
It seems to be one of those rare occasions where I'm not in total disagreement with chewkw. As I said before if the Tories annoy the Brexiters by tearing up A50 they are going to be out of power and I'm sure they don't have the backbone to do what's best for the country if it damages the party. So much as I want to believe we are heading towards remain, I fear the Maybot will revert to her "no deal better than bad deal" mantra.
Oh and whilst musing on this I was looking around online for any Brexit related events that may be taking place in my area. Protests, meetings, marches, that sort of thing. What I did come across was this!
FREE SEMINAR: How to Make Big Returns from Brexit (Manchester)
"The opportunites to make money into and out of Brexit are phenomenal and 99.9% of people are quite literally asleep at the wheel."
"Professional Traders see BREXIT as a major opportunity NOW to profit from in the Financial Markets, in multiple instruments across Europe and the UK over the next 1-2 years".
Be in no doubt as to the "opportunities" perceived by speculators and hedge fund managers. It's a Tory wet dream.
Also this link here.
We're still negotiating and arguing with each other and taking no account of the fact that the EU holds all the cards and has no intention of breaking any of its red lines.
If only there was a way to get on their side of the table and forget all this nonsense?
I could really do with being overridden by a few "Unelected bureaucrats" right now, rather than listening to these unicorn mongers.
So what if there are riots?
Surely the official Brexit line is short term hardship for long term gain.
I had always assumed a 'Norway' would be the fall back position. I hadn't realised Norway don't want us (and can veto us).
Also;
“If as I understand UK politicians do not want to be ruled by regulations coming from other countries, why would they accept a country with 38,000 citizens like Lichtenstein being able to veto regulations that the UK wants. That would be the reality.”
I don't know what Labour mean by 'we could negotiate a better deal'. They must know they cannot get more out of the EU than this without giving up more. BUT their six tests surely only point to the Norway model, do't they? So that must be what they consider to be a 'better deal'.
And if less than 50% of the population riots we can ignore them.
I reckon if Norway could get in with our opt-outs, they'd be in the EU in a heartbeat.
Also note that Norway is outside the customs Union. Afaiac we may just as well be out if that's where we end up.
Scottish independence nothing like be Brexit? Don't make me laugh. The parallels are striking in both argument and sentiment.
I don’t know what Labour mean by ‘we could negotiate a better deal’.
They can't, but you can hardly admit that in the world of politics can you.
How are your preparations going?
Obviously, the banks are being labelled as "traitors" on Social Media for preparing for a possible no-deal Brexit in this way… mostly by the very people claiming that only a no-deal Brexit is a real Brexit. Fun, fun.
How are your preparations going?
The large company I work for have already accommodated for No Deal by expanding existing EU locations (Paris, Frankfurt and Poland) to perform the processes that would no longer be allowed in the UK. Notice they have also spread across 3 while they were at it just in case for example Poland left the EU.
A lot of big businesses are quite good at this...
Scottish independence nothing like be Brexit? Don’t make me laugh. The parallels are striking in both argument and sentiment.
showing your ignorance and disdain for the scots. The two are nothing alike and not driven by the smae things. As you have been told repeatedly
you can hardly admit that in the world of politics can you
Well .. actually. You can. It could almost be called a duty, but not by these self serving numpties.
I grew up in the whacky world of Northern Ireland politics, but even the sinn fein election posters at the height of the troubles ("Freedom Justice Peace") caused me less sympathetic cognitive dissonance than listening to may, corbyn & co. these days.
They aren't just pushing political differences they are denying reality.
As an aside, Scottish independence supporters pointing out the stupidity of leaving the EU and abhorring the use of EU citizens as political pawns gives me the same feeling.
( That I've gone down the wrong leg in the trousers of time and things just don't seem to make sense 🙂
He's been told, he just disagrees...
Del - find one racist or anti furriner quote from any Independence minded scots politician - then compare the total lack of racist quotes you find with the constant racist outpourings from those little englanders who want to leave the EU
tj, not to get distracted from the matter at hand, you (and a lot of the independence movement) need to take a step back and "see yourself as others see you".
Telling people they've "been telt" is not an argument (even if you shout it).
Saying that all the fascists are on the unionist side is a bit rich when a Siol nan Gaidheal banner led some of the recent pro independence demonstrations.
At least we'll now be spared the 'spectacle' of a TV debate between surely the most clueless ever leaders of both political parties 'debating' something that they both pretty much agree on
I am not ideologically attached to independence. I'd rather we didn't have to do it but its the only way this little country can be run properly. England is disappearing up a hard right furriner hating alley and its not a place I want to go
As for the differences - they are obvious to anyone who actually follows politics. The drive fro Scots independence is nothing like the drive for brexit. Very different motivations and endpoint.
More on "what the hell are the people at the Sun up to"…
https://twitter.com/davidyelland/status/1070591543147446277?s=21
tj I notice that you are prepared to accept comparable quotes from only:
"independence minded scots politicians" OR
"little Englanders who want to leave the EU"
Not altogether comparable groups.
If you expand the quotable group in Scotland to "Little Scotlanders who want to leave the UK (and EU)" for fairness we might have more chance of answering your request?
This 'little Englander' (strongly remain, btw) has no interest in being baited by you TJ, even if you want to call me ignorant and disdainful. You're some way wide of the mark about me.
Back to preparations in case of a no-deal exit… I'm glad that we decided to ignore the government and NHS advice, and began stock piling our own personal supplies… I hope you are as well…
Pharmacists will overrule GPs to ration drugs under a no-deal Brexit, The Times has learnt.
Ministers will order them to alter prescriptions without first contacting the patient’s GP in order to mitigate any extreme shortages, according to a leaked document.
The contingency measure was revealed in an urgent consultation begun this week by the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC). It called for rapid changes to medicine rules to “support the continuity of supply of medicines in a ‘no-deal’ scenario”.
Oh, and fwiw I don't question the motives of those involved in the Scots quest for independence - mostly laudable I'm sure.
Del - so why did you say its the same as brexit then when it so obviously is not and to make that claim is disparaging to the scots.
Time to let the IndyScot and EngBrex stuff go I think. There are parallels. There are differences. Who knew?!
Also today - threatening the Irish with famine in the event of a No Deal, and the NI Secretary saying she is party to documents that can't be shared with other MPs. No lessons learnt there then.
NI Secretary saying she is party to documents that can’t be shared with other MPs.
Probably just picture books aimed at NI pre-school kids explaining recent history.
No TJ, that's not what I wrote, that's what you read. I said that many of the arguments and sentiments used were the same. There are parallels in the tactics used in both campaigns. You don't like that being pointed out.
There is nothing ignorant or disdainful in that observation.
England is disappearing up a hard right furriner hating alley and its not a place I want to go
You're doing it again: treating English political views as a monolithic entity. I can imagine how you'd feel if I suggested that all pro-independence Scots were motivated by an inferiority complex.
Del – so why did you say its the same as brexit then when it so obviously is not and to make that claim is disparaging to the scots.
TJ is you cannot see any similarities between two different groups of people who want to leave a union to gain “independence” or control of their country etc. then you might be too close to the issue.
From an outside perspective there appear to be some people with similar attitudes. Sadly many of these are quite shouty and loud
Del – so why did you say its the same as brexit
He didn't say it was the same, he said there are parallels. Which is not the same thing.
To me the Scots want to leave an abusive partner.
The UK wants to leave a partner that has been rather nice to us.
To me the Scots want to leave an abusive partner.
The UK wants to leave a partner that has been rather nice to us.
To follow that analogy..... I'm going hard for a Norwegian model if there's a genuine chance i can get it.
I’m going hard for a Norwegian model if there’s a genuine chance i can get it.
I'd like that too, but at my age I don't think I'll get one.
Also today – threatening the Irish with famine in the event of a No Deal
Yeah, I've read about Patel's comments regarding this and using the "threat" to go back to the negotiating table. Jesus wept. Do these expensively educated muppets not learn any history at all?
As you can imagine, however badly this news has been greeted by progressives in the UK, it is NOT going down well in the RoI. Is this how Brexiteers think they're going to win friends and influence people?
Do these expensively educated muppets not learn any history at all?
Well 'International Development Secratary' Penny Mordaunt was recently shocked to discover that voters in northern ireland generally voted along sectarian lines. I mean.. SERIOUSLY? This is a government minister. Have you been living in a ****ing box in a shed for the last 40 years?
This is the calibre of the politicians we're presently saddled with. Is it any wonder this is all such a total shambles. Especially the whole Irish border issue. The level of ignorance is terrifying. Its like they exist in some parallel universe