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And BTW it won't take an act of parliament to revoke A50, just the installation of a PM who is prepared to take that step
I’d love to see a bit of honesty and for her to state the bleeding obvious.
She's still saying that Brexit will be good for us, despite there being not a shred of evidence to support this claim.
However this would be rather out of character for her.
Yep given her track record being able to successfully execute a plan would be a surprise to say the least.
A group of friends go out every saturday night for a meal, to the same restaurant. Over the years, the service has got worse, the menu rarely changes but still they keep going. And one day some of the friends suggest that they give the new restaurant in town a go. They have a vote, and although it's close the friends agree they'll go to the new place.
But when they get there and look inside, it's not what they thought. The menu isn't to their taste, it's a lot more expensive than they imagined, and in the back they can see the chef scratching his arse with his stirring spoon.
And someone pipes up - I'm not so sure about this. We don't like the food, it's going to cost us more, and we're all likely to have the shits because of the chef.
Do you
a/ listen to the 2 most vocal members of your group and eat there despite the problems, because you said you would before you knew anything about it
b/ have a show of hands to see if the consensus is still to give it a go
c/ go back to the old place but tell the owner that there are some things you aren't happy about
How is that undemocratic?
People are saying that a second referendum is betraying the will of the people, when it literally IS the will of the people. WTF?
I think someone should use theotherjonv's example in the commons during today's debate.
That article about Democracy being eroded by powerful billionaires and the remark about "if someone had written a book based on all this no-one would believe it"...
People are saying that a second referendum is betraying the will of the people, when it literally IS the will of the people. WTF?
"Enemies of the State". All of us.
Is there time for a second referendum?
Is there time for a second referendum?
There will always be time for the UK to stay in the EU. There was never enough time for Brexit - the EU knew this. They took a look at Davies and his team and knew they'd **** it up even if they'd been given 4 years to sort it.
Is there time for a second referendum?
Frankly there is no need for one. The government need to MTFU and do their "sovereign" duty.
Radio 4 just had a vox Pop with some people from Bedford, utterly depressing, people just parroting the lines fed to them by Mogg & Johnson about control, bullying EU , just walk away...
The Brexiteers promised they would take back control.
But we always had control, they just chose not to use it.
Freedom of movement was never free, without a job we could send you back home after 6mths, but we couldn't because Tories slashed border staff & as Home Sec May ended exit checks.
Industry still needs workers, but Tories privatised apprenticeships provider: LearnDirect now rated Inadequate by Ofsted & apprenticeships numbers have collapsed.
Likewise they removed nurses training bursaries.
We want control of our streets but they've cut 10s of 1000s of police & youth centres.
£bns taken from councils.
Austerity was always about the right wing dream of a small state, but the last 8 years has shown that with a small state we lose control.
Scapegoating the EU was the easy answer, crying 'bullying' when they tell us we can't keep the benefits of membership after we leave is the easy answer.
Depressing that so many people lap it up.
We always had control, but austerity, not EU membership took it away from us.
This page has started with some good stuff! Molgrips nails it for me: all this "delivering the will of the people" tosh is ignoring the fact that the will of the people has changed, as well as there being new people in the mix now, who either weren't allowed or weren't motivated to voice it in 2016, but probably would now.
Especially now that at least some of us now know that all of the things that we were annoyed at were within our gift to change anyway, and nothing to do with the "shackles of the EU" ..
that the will of the people has changed,
Has it ?
Only one way to find that out really
Because the press are a bit meh
The news seems to be faked up
If it comes back at 52 48 in another 2nd ref wtf then
When can we start rioting?
Mick - agreed. The will of many individuals has changed, or they now feel strongly enough to bother to vote: whether that amounts to a change in the collective will can only be shown through another referendum...
Binners, as an extremely moderate, quite Liberal and very conformist person, even I feel almost ready to join you!
Actually the will of relatively few people has changed, and some have changed from remain to leave. I wouldn't be at all confident of a 2nd ref turning out ok and if not we are even more stuffed. My hope is that talk of a ref is just a stepping stone on the way to parliament doing its job.
Binners, the rioting may have to wait for summer, we don't have the same level of commitment as the french. Fortunately brexit will be delayed until then, if it's not been formally cancelled...
I wouldn’t be at all confident of a 2nd ref turning out ok
Maybe not but I still don't see what's undemocratic about asking people now they know what Leave really means, as opposed to the crap that was spouted (by both sides) last time.
If we then subsequently ratify that first vote then I still wouldn't be happy, but I'd have a far better reason to accept it as a democratic decision.
If we do end up in a Corbyn government, which obviously brexiteers hate. Are they to blame for it? In my thinking if we do end up with Corby in power, its entirely their fault
Actually the will of relatively few people has changed, and some have changed from remain to leave. I wouldn’t be at all confident of a 2nd ref turning out ok and if not we are even more stuffed. My hope is that talk of a ref is just a stepping stone on the way to parliament doing its job.
the biggest indicator as to how much opinion has changed is the absolute fear in the leaver camp about asking the public any kind of question. Everyone will blame polls etc but they have been improving and consistent.
the biggest indicator as to how much opinion has changed is the absolute fear in the leaver camp about asking the public any kind of question
Not sure that says much. Given the closeness last time they wouldnt have wanted another vote the next day.
Leavers may be loud but they still only have one vote. The fact that leavers have died can't be changed.
The Tory party now gets more funding from dead people than live ones.
Quoting a yesterday man, Che.
The rules for protecting your assets haven't changed, stick your money in a politically stable country where revolution is unlikely. The rules of insurgency and revolution have not changed. The fact that they think that they can profit in the long term from chaos is a symptom of their privileged upbringing where they have never heard the sounds of gunshots in the street. They have forgotten the number one rule of staying rich, keep your masses happy. If they do carry on down that path, it will only end up with them being strung up naked from a petrol station like Mussolini.
The problem with your rhetoric though El-Bent is that it is exactly the same rhetoric used by the other side, eg Brexiteers - the EU and the new world order are out to get them.
Your rhetoric, just as there's, will lead to populist authoritarianism. History has been here before, you are repeating the exact same mistakes that the left did in the early 20th century. Everything about your rhetoric is the same as the propaganda that the Spanish and German communists were using - I assume you would dismiss the historical analysis of these movements as well, out of ignorance?
Your thinking is just another example of how we've somehow, in the space of a few short years, rewound history to the 30's.
The rules for protecting your assets haven’t changed, stick your money in a politically a stable country where revolution is unlikely.
Have you not noticed how the brexit elite have rather loose connections to the UK and seem to be busy getting boltholes elsewhere? High risk can give high returns and so as long as you keep plenty of reserves back and make sure you dont have to live where you are shitting then it can be profitable enough.
Have you not noticed how the brexit elite have rather loose connections to the UK and seem to be busy getting boltholes elsewhere? High risk can give high returns and so as long as you keep plenty of reserves back and make sure you dont have to live where you are shitting then it can be profitable enough
The way it's going, there won't be any stable boltholes left and the countries where they want to spend their money will have high inflation. Their wealth depends on a stable FTSE250, a stable western economy. It is absolute short termism to think that you can get away with causing political and economic chaos for your own ends.
Only westerners think you can do this, in China you get assassinated or brought down on corruption charges and have your assets seized. Which is why so many of them pour money into politically stable countries.
Have you not noticed how the brexit elite have rather loose connections to the UK
Well, many key ones claimed diplomatic immunity in the past, by not only becoming citizens of Belize, but ambassadors for it. Citizens of nowhere indeed.
Luxembourg time? What's wrong with GMT??
Luxembourg time? What’s wrong with GMT??
It's a codeword.
People who work in different time zones should always refer to GMT if we are involved. Just like people who have other languages as a first language must always speak in English when they are around us. Don't they know who we are?!?
Also notable that she said “no brexit at all” more times in that interview than anyone said in the first two years post referendum.
Yep, that is because there is going to be No brexit. I said it the day after the referendum and starting to wish I made a big bet with someone. You need to of course show that you are trying to go through with it as per the vote, knowing full well it will never happen.
I truly hope you're right, kerley, but I'm still not ready to make a big bet on it...
A group of friends go out every saturday night for a meal, to the same restaurant. Over the years, the service has got worse, the menu rarely changes but still they keep going. And one day some of the friends suggest that they give the new restaurant in town a go. They have a vote, and although it’s close the friends agree they’ll go to the new place.
But when they get there and look inside, it’s not what they thought. The menu isn’t to their taste, it’s a lot more expensive than they imagined, and in the back they can see the chef scratching his arse with his stirring spoon.
And someone pipes up – I’m not so sure about this. We don’t like the food, it’s going to cost us more, and we’re all likely to have the shits because of the chef.
Do you
a/ listen to the 2 most vocal members of your group and eat there despite the problems, because you said you would before you knew anything about it
b/ have a show of hands to see if the consensus is still to give it a go
c/ go back to the old place but tell the owner that there are some things you aren’t happy about
How is that undemocratic?
Except, in this case, a couple of your group who don't fancy the new restaurant or the old one are suggesting a spot of bin-diving at the back of the Co-op. They say it might be a bit uncomfortable initially, but the potential rewards are immense.
EDIT: Bloody forum!
How is ‘no brexit at all’ respecting the ‘will of the people’ any less than having another referendum*
*this is based on the assumption that the grown ups wouldn’t allow a no deal brexit to actually happen...
What I find utterly amazing is how many of them don't get the NI border conundrum. Its been obvious from the start. GFA requires and open border. An open border means regulatory consistency each side of it we agreed to this last year.
Any backstop must be indefinite and must not be able to be ended unilaterally or its not a backstop
Without an agred NI backstop to protect the GFA then no deal is possible. We crash out of the EU with no deal and a hard border on the island of ireland breaching the GFA
So why do they keep saying they want to get rid of the NI backstop / renegotiate it? There is no chance of this happening at all. Its an essential part of the leave agreement. without a properly functioning NI backstop no agreement is possible.
How is ‘no brexit at all’ respecting the ‘will of the people’ any less than having another referendum
It doesn't but it does demonstrate the sovereignty of the elected parliament in a representative democracy - AKA it was an advisory referendum.
Didn’t call me Dave try to tell the “old place” there were something’s we weren’t happy with and he got told to “like it or lump it” ?
He got pretty much everything he asked for, expect powers to stop movement of workers (partly because the EU knows we choose not to use any of the current powers we have to restrict movement, because EU workers have kept us afloat for the last decade).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
"It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union."
Kerley, I'm with you and was also telling anyone who would listen that brexit couldn't happen. There wasn't anyone taking bets back then, plus it was also an eggs in one basket scenario (ie if brexit happened I'd be pissed off by that and lose the bet too) so I didn't try to pursue that too hard.
Everything Dave did with his EU negotiation was just another glaring example of his usual monumental arrogance and complacency
And look where its got us?
It must be nice to just lob a hand grenade it to a countries democracy and economy then just casually stroll off and take no responsibility for the resulting damage, whatsoever.
I find it unbelievable that leavers seriously want to elect another Eton ****-wit who's grotesque sense of entitlement means their opinion of their own abilities bears no resemblance to the reality, and who's entire privilidged life experience has taught them that there are no actual consequences for them, personally, for their actions, no matter how reckless
I find it unbelievable that leavers seriously want to elect another Eton ****-wit who’s grotesque sense of entitlement means their opinion of their own abilities bears no resemblance to the reality, and who’s entire privilidged life experience has taught them that there are no actual consequences for them, personally, for their actions, no matter how reckless
And yet, given the alternative.. . .
Didn’t call me Dave try to tell the “old place” there were something’s we weren’t happy with and he got told to “like it or lump it” ?
To an extent, yes. But then on others - we actually had matters in our hands already. I could never understand why my friend consistently moaned that the steak wasn't pink, but when asked always requested it well-done.
*that's a shit immigration analogy FWIW 😉
The problem with your rhetoric though El-Bent is that it is exactly the same rhetoric used by the other side, eg Brexiteers – the EU and the new world order are out to get them.
Not my rhetoric. Obviously you seek to discredit what I have said with stuff like your cheap "do you hate Jews" comment, but you seem a bit upset with it.
Are you what they call round these parts a big hitter?
Why doesn't England simply declare independence from the rest of the UK?
Then there's no problem about the other nations holding it back from its Brexit.
Yep. This is basically a question of English Nationalism, particularly so now that the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament have voted against the deal.
Isn't this whole shitshow just fabulously funny now it's falling apart in front of our eyes? The tories are in complete meltdown. They have literally no govt, no plan, no clue. And they all voted for this 21 months ago, they were just too stupid to realise what they were doing.
The tories are in complete meltdown. They have literally no govt, no plan, no clue. And they all voted for this 21 months ago,
The Tories didn't vote for Brexit, individual conservative MP's certainly did but it wasn't government policy. It was the British public who did the voting.
I meant the vote for invoking article 50 when they didn't have even the semblance of a plan or policy about what sort of relationship they actually wanted (beyond unicorns).
Wasn't just the Tories the vote was 498 to 114.
I meant the vote for invoking article 50 when they didn’t have even the semblance of a plan or policy about what sort of relationship they actually wanted
This is the crux of it. Well that and having a referendum in the first place when they should have known it's far too big of an issue for that.
I hope May gets a thorough political kicking, because the way she's handled this has been absolutely dreadful. I cannot imagine the thought process that led to even proposing A50 so quickly and then not telling anyone what they were negotiating and then expecting everyone to fall in line just before the deadline. This is the most important thing to happen to the UK since the war, and we're expected to just take whatever you come up with on the back of an envelope in a few months?
As for uniting the country.. get to ****. She's stripped me of my rights for cheap political gain, I cannot forgive that.
. Well that and having a referendum in the first place when they should have known it’s far too big of an issue for that.
Probably true, but the Tories and to some extent labour were hemorrhaging votes to UKIP. The whole EU thing was tearing the Conservative party apart. The referendum which was supposed to result in a remain vote was intended to heal all that. Politically it was a massive mistake. But labour should shoulder some of the blame, huge areas of Wales with massive labour support voted for Brexit. Labour just didn't do anything like enough to get the remain message across.
Could people stop dragging our national animal through the mud please?
As for uniting the country.. get to *. She’s stripped me of my rights for cheap political gain, I cannot forgive that
This in spades. As Dara O'Brien once said everyone is entitled to their opinion but it doesn't it mean counts for ****.
Why doesn’t England simply declare independence from the rest of the UK?
Noooooo. It's only the other countries that give us hope. But I tell you what, if we do leave I hope Scotland and Wales then get independence and can make their own choices regarding the EU.
She’s stripped me of my rights for cheap political gain
Yes it strikes me that the Tories are now just in survival mode. If for some reason the Brexiteers don't get what they want, the Tories will haemorrhage votes at the next election. So my concern is they are now simply in a situation where it's save the party and to hell with the country.
Oh and by the way have we done Rees-Mogg advocating a second referendum back in 2011?
https://metro.co.uk/video/jacob-rees-mogg-suggests-holding-second-referendum-brexit-1739176/
I predict a No deal. 😀
Binners, the rioting may have to wait for summer
No one wants an extra day of in the winter... better to wait for good weather
The leavers never expected to win so don’t want another vote where they get the results they expected originally
But labour should shoulder some of the blame, huge areas of Wales with massive labour support voted for Brexit. Labour just didn’t do anything like enough to get the remain message across.
No remainers did.
It is still possible that May is trying to use the vote to demonstrate that the best that can be done is still rubbish, in order to make Norway or remain look better but probably more to make the arch-leavers look stupid.
I predict a No deal
I predict you’ll continue to be a boring troll hiding behind a fake persona
The idea that May has some machiavellian masterplan and is bent on self-sabotage is fun but obviously complete bollocks.
I predict a riot. I predicted it some time ago. Not intended as any threat, there will be a riot irrespective of the choices made by parliament/govt.
Saw a leaver arguing that the pound freefalling would be good for people with lower wages as they'd have more money to spend. ???!!!
You've got to bear in mind that the average person is pretty thick, and half of the population is thicker than that. Which is one of the drawbacks of democracy in general and referendums in particular.
I predict you’ll continue to be a boring troll hiding behind a fake persona
The reason for no deal is simple.
Both sides have voted it down albeit with Tory rebels help so unless the Govt drastically change it, the govt will be voted down again.
Then guess what 3rd time lucky ... No deal will be proposed and accepted. 😀
The PM (whoever it happens to be) will revoke A50 at the 11th hour against a backdrop of riots. If it gets to that.
thecaptain
Isn’t this whole shitshow just fabulously funny now it’s falling apart in front of our eyes?
It would be if the closest analogy wasn't the Titanic and we the third class passengers.
The PM (whoever it happens to be) will revoke A50 at the 11th hour against a backdrop of riots. If it gets to that.
LOL! The 3rd world tactic ... can't get the vote create a state of emergency.
She will be replaced if she cannot get the deal the people want.
She WILL bow to the people with No Deal.
Her political career will be strengthen tremendously if she goes for No Deal.
She will be replaced if she cannot get the deal the people want.
Well, I guess it was really that simple, I can't see what the problem is. Got the bit of paper with that deal on?
Her political career will be strengthen tremendously if she goes for No Deal
And once the country grinds to a halt ?
Don't bite at chewkw, he may have been away for a bit, but he's still an utter fanny.
Chewkw actually raises some decent points sometimes, he is right in that would be a very third world tin pot tactic to use. I wouldn't always dismiss all of his daft comments out of hand.
If she ever proposed no deal she wouldn't last the night.
epicyclo, I agree it must still be seriously worrying for some and they have my sympathy. If I had the power to force a better solution, I would do so in a heartbeat. As it is, I can only recommend you enjoy a glass of whisky (as I am doing) and focus on the realisation that it really is going to work out ok in the end. Brexit is so dead, it's stone cold buried. This is a time to celebrate, not panic.
Yep. This is basically a question of English Nationalism, particularly so now that the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament have voted against the deal.
Not really: a majority of Welsh, and significant minority of Scots voted to leave.
its over 2:1 remain now in Scotland - thats very different.
the jingistic nationalism that drives brexit is not something you here much of in Scotland. Its certainly an english nationalism that stirs up anti europe feelings
So what stirred up 4 out of every 10 Scottish voters?
Chewkw actually raises some decent points sometimes,
No he doesn’t. He just decides what the most controversial position is and posts based On that. Trolling 101
No he doesn’t. He just decides what the most controversial position is and posts based On that. Trolling 101
So what deal do you want coz there will always be people who disagreed.
I want a blue and yellow deal.
Chewkw actually raises some decent points sometimes
Vocabulary is getting better..