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He apparently knew exactly what he was voting for
Have you asked him what that was?
Alright Ed. It's been a while.
So it seems Garage has quit UKIP. Two things I wonder:
1) Has he seen the writing on the wall and is about to "do a Cameron" before the whole thing crashes down?
2) Reckon he'll still get boatloads of airtime on the Beeb?
This is all about positioning himself as a moderate racist
Lots of bluffing and counter bluffing in Parliament. As klunk says (^), the Brexiters don't like TM's deal, but if a second referendum begins to look like a real possibility, they'll vote for it to kill off the debate rather than risk no Brexit.
Dominic Raab is on the radio at the moment saying a 'Clean Brexit' would have an economic impact in the short-term but would be worth it in the long run
I am heartily *ing sick of hearing this argument from rich, entitled *s who have the luxury of the (unearned) financial cushion that enables them to absorb that. They clearly don't give a flying one about those who don't enjoy that same privilege. Or they're just so detached from reality that they just assume everyone, like them, has a big wedge of savings, maybe a few properties and a share portfolio put aside for just such eventualities
Any deal is bad for hard-line Brexshitters.
No deal, they can claim victory
Remain they can carry on shouting from the sides
they’ll vote for it to kill off the debate
I think that is underestimating just how much "control" May is offering to give up to the EU. Remember, these Tory Brexitier MPs really do believe that Brexit is about "taking back control" rather than just being about keeping Eastern Europeans out. For them (and all of us really) the Withdrawl Deal as it currently stands gives up our say, power and control.
As for Farrage… UKIP are over… he can continue to stir up the shit in the media without them… and the other UKIP big names are already rejoining the Conservative party… and anything could happen there… it is already close to being two parties in painful and angry coalition.
I am heartily *ing sick of hearing this argument from rich, entitled *s who have the luxury of the (unearned) financial cushion that enables them to absorb that
Nothing new there though from a Tory.
As for Farrage… UKIP are over… he can continue to stir up the shit in the media without them…
If it wasn't for the time needed (Given it took him 20- 25 years with ukip) I can see him starting a new party somewhere down the line.
He was warbling on about his options the other day.
Is anyone else thinking of cancelling their licence fee? I'm so sick of the BBC's bias latest example is Raab going unchallenged.
Was listening to 6 music news and low and behold after the main headline from yesterday they went straight to a prominent leave MP for his two cents. Then you have the BBC crews and question time production that seem to just hang around in the Leave heartlands, oh let's go to Hartlepool fish market for some ordinary man vox pops
Heartily sick of it, plus it would allow this hand wringing lazy liberal feel like he's done his bit for the cause
Never mind Theresa, love. Fancy a dance, hen?
Geoffrey Cox reputation now trashed, legal advice clearly says we cant exit backstop unilaterally
May has onec again played a blinder, as jambalya might have said 😉
meanwhile the entire farce is finally sinking in with the public
https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/1070270957179297794
how can the DUP support this ?
It may be of no importance, but why is the letter dated 13th November 2018, the same day the humble address asked for its publication. Almost as if it didn't exist until it was asked for......
I will never go to a Wetherspoons again (to be honest, I probably go in one about once a year and they do sometimes have nice beers on) and I am forbidding the missus to buy a Dyson now our vacuum is on the blink.
Sticking...it...to...the...man!
how can the DUP support this ?
Never mind when (sorry if) the EU pushes rUK out of the customs union, but keeps NI in it, because (sorry if) the UK tries to game the customs union… even before all that kicks off (sorry if it kicks off) the Single Market rules will mean that after the transition period…
"…for regulatory purposes GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB into NI"
Publishing these legal notes means the DUP can not support May any longer.
@dannyh - Exactly. May sound petty but if enough people do it then a point gets made.
I've been trying to find a list of Brexit supporting businesses so that I can avoid them but no luck yet.
FWIW Mike Ashley owns Sports Direct and House of Fraser and has large holdings in Blacks, Millets, Mambo, JJB Sports and JD Sports. He also owns the Dunlop/Slazenger, Donnay, Karrimor, Kangol and Lonsdale brands and has part ownership of Umbro.
I know Next, JCB, Inneos and Legal and General support it to varying extents.
Corbyn just went through the whole of PMQ's without mentioning Brexit. I guess he's a bit miffed at seeing his dream of a no deal Brexit slip away.
Oliver Letwin is now doing a better job of holding the government to account than the leader of the labour party
Is anyone else thinking of cancelling their licence fee? I’m so sick of the BBC’s bias
The fact that Leavers and Remainers both complain about "BBC bias", in opposite directions, suggests to me that they are probably getting the balance about right.
48% of 2016 non-voters say it is wrong and only 18%, right.
Then they should have got off their effing arses and voted. This pisses me right off.
If the younger generation had turned out as well as the older generation did, all polls suggest we would have ended up with a remain result.
Bunch of effing snowflakes and their "I didn't vote but boo hoo the result from those that did isn't the one I wanted". If there is a second referendum (I really don't see any way of avoiding it) then they had better get down to their polling station and make their voice heard where it counts at the ballot box and not just on social media.
So it seems Garage has quit UKIP. Two things I wonder:
How many times has he quit UKIP? Or did he just stand down as leader before, only to come bouncing back again a few months later like a turd that won't flush.
If there is another ref I will be down in Cardiff city centre with a placard and a stack of leaflets I've printed out myself if necessary.
Is anyone else thinking of cancelling their licence fee?
You mean get rid of your tv. Thats the only way of cancelling 🤨
Edit.
I'm feeling far more sympathetic towards people who voted Leave this week… looking at May's withdrawal deal, and the way it genuinely does give control to the EU… I much better understand their complaints about our current relationship with the EU. Not sure any of those complaints (apart from keeping Eastern Europeans out) will be addressed by what May wants us to sign up for… I'm pretty damn sure that the complaints will become far more valid… and should be more vocal, with more support.
The question is, how does this move towards us keeping more control? And should the country just thumb its collective nose at those who fear the foreigner, to enable us to either get a far better set of arrangements to the ones spelt out in the withdrawal agreement, or indeed to keep the current ones?
looking at May’s withdrawal deal, and the way it genuinely does give control to the EU… I much better understand their complaints about our current relationship with the EU.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
- the EU will get to set the regulations used in part of the UK, indefinitely
- the EU can divide the UK into two customs areas
- the EU can kick the rUK out of the customs area
- the EU can keep the rUK in the customs area
- the EU can set the tariffs for the customs area
All without the UK having a say, either at the PM level, or ministers level, or UK parliamentary level, or EU parliament level, or UK voting populous level, or even our civil servants acting for us.
We currently have the right to Leave the (current) customs area, and to dump EU regulations, by leaving the EU. We will give up the right to self determination in this way.
We currently lead the way in setting regulations, and in setting and pursuing a Common Commerical Policy. We would give up our part in that, but would still be bound by what the EU agreed internally, and with third countries.
Its the will of the people I'm afraid
Will we now see the gammons pushing for a people's vote?
– the EU will get to set the regulations used in part of the UK, indefinitely
That we would be forced to adhere to even if we left fully, to sell goods covered by said regulations inside the EU.
People need to be made to understand that we now live in a world where the British can't say - "**** you, we are doing things our own way". We live in a much more interdependent and connected world where we share power and influence with a lot more nations with their own collective interests, than we did before - our country is now essentially a global citizen that that has a social contract with the rest of the world.
in opposite directions, suggests to me that they are probably getting the balance about right.
Or it could just mean they are halfway to crazy town. After all the crazies will never be satisfied with anything short of complete capitulation to their beliefs.
This can be seen in alt medicine etc and other scenarios as well. They still complain about anything other than outright flattery of their beliefs.
That we would be forced to adhere to even if we left fully, to sell goods covered by said regulations inside the EU.
True, but that changes to…
That we would be forced to adhere to even if we left fully, to sell goods covered by said regulations inside the EU & NI.
This is also sensible stuff, to protect the Good Friday Agreement, but it absolutely is about ceding control to the EU. May's withdrawal agreement weakens the UK's control, to try and square the circle that is the NI being "outside the EU" and still as close as possible to the rest of Ireland, and also to try and minimise the damage on rUK industry and jobs. There are other options, but they don't stop Eastern Europeans working in my local garage… or something.
kelvin, I think you're saying that TM's deal doesn't deliver anywhere near what the Brexiters want? That's true, and it's the only deal anyone will ever succeed in negotiating, for the simple reason that we don't (and never had) any good cards in our hand to negotiate from. So the only thing that's palatable to the Brexiters is No Deal. The big question is how many will reject the deal, in the hope of No Deal but the risk of a referendum and remaining, and how many will swallow the bitter pill and vote for the deal to stop the debate? I don't think they know themselves. There will also be some who chose their vote in the hope that they lose, because their constituents will see them vote.
– the EU will get to set the regulations used in part of the UK, indefinitely
– the EU can divide the UK into two customs areas
– the EU can kick the rUK out of the customs area
– the EU can keep the rUK in the customs area
– the EU can set the tariffs for the customs area
The thing is, by some such conclusions are being presented as what will happen. Not what theoreticaly might happen in some worst case scenario. It's not in anybody's interest for the backstop to be implemented in the first place, certainly not for it to continue indefinitely. Above all I'm sure all parties are very aware of the peace process, and nobody wants to go down in history as the person who broke it. Hence the caution in the process of negotiating the Ireland/N.Ireland border.
Saying that I've not heard of anything like a workable solution to date. Other than not leaving, which should have been the vote in the first place.
Kelvin you are right about those things but I'm more interested in why you say you understand the leaver complaints about the EU. In this deal, the EU is not being tyrannical in imposing its will on us - it's the only logical conclusion of the state of affairs. There's really nothing they could have done - largely because of the GFA. But apart from that, even if we were able to leave completely, we'd still end up selling a lot of our stuff to the EU and we'd have to meet their regulations anyway.
why you say you understand the leaver complaints about the EU
Because I view the position this Withdrawl Agreement will put us in with much the same horror that they view our current arrangements with the EU. I don't agree with them about the current arrangements, I just feel I better understand their complaints, even if I don't think they are well founded.
This is also sensible stuff, to protect the Good Friday Agreement, but it absolutely is about ceding control to the EU. May’s withdrawal agreement weakens the UK’s control
See my edited post. The British ceded control when they voted out and they cannot expect to dictate unilaterally their relationship with the rest of the world, that we share the planet with. Unless you want us to become pre-1854 isolationist Japan - look how that worked out btw. That is not how it works anymore - unless you are China or the United States.
The only way we will get the kind of authoritative dictatorial control the Brexiters want is if Britain puts the French, German, Spanish and Italian navies to the bottom of the North Sea and Russia retakes eastern Europe. That is the only scenario in which we get that.
Molgrips, the answer, such as it is, lies enritely in the word 'logical' as someone pointed out yesterday, logic has left the room. (I'd personally say that it went on hiatus in mid-2016 and hasn't been seen since)
What actually happens if the UK breaks the backstop deal? It's a violation of International law by the looks of it but is that actually a big deal in this case? OK it would screw up any trading relationship with the EU and there would be chaos but I'm guessing May doesn't get arrested and hauled off to the Hague (or wherever such stuff is conducted).
Saying that I’ve not heard of anything like a workable solution to date.
There are loads of 'workable' solutions in the sense that there is clarity in what they mean, at least in outline if not detail (shame on the brexiters for not actually putting effort into sorting out any of it and offering an alternative)
eg: leave with No deal means we have to then negotiate with all and sundry over future trade arrangements. It's clear what we have to do, there's no clarity in how, when, who or what that entails and the expected outcome, beyond some back of the envelope estimates.
There are loads of alternate, workable solutions....... the fact is that 'politics' aside (taking back control, no foreigners, etc.) there is no benefit* and only harm that would result.
* benefits in the eyes of the rabid brexiteer, not mine, for avoidance of doubt.
If I had a mouse infestation in my loft I could burn the house down. It's a 'workable' solution to the mouse problem.........technically it would cure the infestation.
Fuzzy-wuzzy, what do you think would happen if the EU suddenly cut off all trade to the UK and embargoed us?
I don't know about you, but looking at the competency of recent governance between the quiet and skilfully efficient approach of Brussels, and the absolute ****ing shambles thats been going on over here, I'm more than happy to see us as EU rule-takers indefinitely
Kelvin if we want to remain part of the single market and customs union we have to abide by EU rules - it's their trainset. If we want those things without contributing to the EU then we have no place at the table to influence decision, vote or use our veto. If we want to retain influence over what agreement we have, we have to remain in the EU.
Molgrips, the answer, such as it is, lies enritely in the word ‘logical’ as someone pointed out yesterday, logic has left the room.
It left the UK yes but the EU is still behaving logically, that was my point.
The whole farce of the last 2 years can be covered by one devastatingly simple sentence.
The 4 principles of the EU - The free movement of goods, services, capital and persons - are indivisible.
Its amazing how many supposedly intelligent people failed to grasp this. Its not really that complicated, is it?
Here are their ickle faces when I just also told them there's no Father Christmas either...
– the EU can divide the UK into two customs areas
– the EU can kick the rUK out of the customs area
This is incorrect, the letter says they would be open to argue for it, but then explains why in his view they wouldn't be successful.
Are you still talking about his spin document, or the actual legal advice now out? Either way, you are wrong. Unless the EU agree to a replacement arrangement, when/if the rUK leaves the joint customs area, NI stays in it. And the EU can kick rUK out of the customs area if (and only if) we are trying to game the arrangement. As I said, before.
- We will control our own borders and end free movement once and for all
- We will protect jobs with a deal that is good for our economy
- We will no longer send vast sums of money to the EU so we can spend more on our priorities, like investing in our long term plan for the NHS
- We will be able to strike free trade deals around the world
- We will take back control of our laws, ending the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK
- We will keep people safe against crime, terrorism and other threats by working closely with European countries
- And we will protect the integrity of our United Kingdom
No you won't, there won't be a border in Ireland, that's what you've agreed.
LOL
Yes you will if you want a trade deal. Norway and Switzeralnd pay, so will you
No you won't you'll be limited by existing deals and WTO favoured nation rules
Don't ever set foot in Europe though cause we'll arrest you at entry
Not sure we'll trust you enough to cooperate much
No chance, you can't do that because we aren't going to agree to anything that means putting a border through Ireland. Catch 22.
Wake up people in Britland, your government is telling porky pies.
Shameful isn't it?
Hi Molgrips, thanks for the greeting a page back.
Shameful maybe. Such a gross misrepresentation of the realities facing a little island when it's told all its close mates to **** off should really be the subject of uproar from the country's media outlets. The lack of reaction is at least as shameful. Even the Guardian just compliantly reports the nonsense being spouted in the Commons.
How can the government be campaigning rather than a party? There isn't even an election... surely this is against the rules?
And the campaign is pathetic. Like our plan because it'll be brilliant, honest. ****'s sake.
But apart from that, even if we were able to leave completely, we’d still end up selling a lot of our stuff to the EU and we’d have to meet their regulations anyway.
That is not in the hard brexiters plans. While its totally understandable to be focused on current events, we really do need to start looking at what the future of the UK will be in the coming decade, if Brexit is achieved. I'm not going to say that people have only been concentrating on what the Russians got up to in the last few years, but many have been blindsided by what the right wing think tanks in the UK and the US have been cooking up for the UK.
The TPA, IEA, etc, who funds them, what umbrella organisation both they and the US think tanks belong to, (Atlas network) and how a little known economist influences their ideology.
In the US the tea party and their ideology, which have effectively taken over the Republicans, didn't come from nowhere, remember the Republicans shutting down the US Government a few times now? Its all part of the plan for virtually zero Government with no powers to stop the wealthy who are funding all these enterprises, and be prevented from "publicly spending money" to help the average person.
They actually want to end Democracy for us.
If the UK signs any kind of deal with the US this is the future for us. The EU with its rules, regulations and laws are the anti-Christ to these people, along with the UN, and the WTO.
Here is that economist, it really is worth a read to understand how extreme his followers are, <span style="text-decoration: underline;">where they currently are</span>, and what plans they have for us.
What actually happens if the UK breaks the backstop deal? It’s a violation of International law by the looks of it but is that actually a big deal in this case?
They don't care about international law, they will do anything to achieve what they want, look at Brexit and Trump, all the lies. The ultimate goal they want to achieve is a situation where no law anywhere can touch them, because they will be making the law.
We have all laughed and been aghast at Trumps behaviour in equal measure, and he is the best they have currently got to achieve their current aims. Some would say that by trump being trump it will discredit the ideology of those working behind the scenes to achieve these aims. You'd be wrong, they will have put a few more pieces of their puzzle into place.
As for Brexit, yes the ERG have been shown to be idiots, but their goal is no different than whats happening across the pond, the wealth managers, the think tanks linked into the group all have the same goal. Like trump its only been their what would seem amateur attempts and lies to achieve their goals which have "discredited" them.
At some point, when a few more pieces of the puzzle are in place, when we have been further worn down by simply looking at Politicians and saying they all lie, when trust has gone beyond simply erosion, they will get the "right man" in place.
Bye Bye democracy for the likes of us oiks. Welcome to the oligarchy.
EL Bent that is the best post written on this thread by some distance.
Respect.
Has anyone mentioned this to Corbyn?
Given that Corbyn hasn't changed his mind on anything since about 1974:
Not much point
EL Bent that is the best post written on this thread by some distance.
Respect.
Thank you.
Trying to get this "wider picture" over to brexiters, including my Dad, is difficult to say the least. We all complain about millionaires/billionaires funding political parties, or certain individuals owning media, and I 'm sure those of us know why they do this, to control the narrative in their favour.
But what we could be seeing next is an acceleration and expansion of this principal, where instead of paying for political influence, they become the power themselves. No more behind the scenes action.
HM gov sent me the following link today:
https://brexitdealexplained.campaign.gov.ukWell worth a read if you like to be patronised.
Remember folks - 'it is time to get on with it' and 'whichever way you voted, now is the time for us to come together for a brighter future'
****s.
Edit - sorry - just noticed zippykona beat me to it!
It looks like we are at an impasse. 😀
we ?
At least two of his multiple personalities, most likely.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blood-Streets-Investment-Profits-World/dp/067162735X
Always worth remembering Rees-Moggs Dads book.
El-Bent, who are "they"? The Jews?
Number one rule for wealth protection derives from this
Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote... the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted. - Che Guevara
Thus, the rule goes - don't erode trust in government completely and fully.
Your conspiratorial rhetoric is hilariously more likely to be the cause of us getting a dictatorship. A bunch of half arsed ERG or tea party ****waffles aren't capable of doing that though, what it takes are people on both ends of the political spectrum telling the voters that someone is out to get them
It looks like we are at an impasse.
Yep despite over 2 years to try, knowing the rules before the start and all that the brexiteers have still failed to present even a vaguely sensible option that will appeal to a fraction of the population, if only somebody could have seen this coming
we ?
Yes, UK & EU.
😀
Are you still talking about his spin document, or the actual legal advice now out?
Yes, dont agree with your contentions at all, advice says provision otiose or ineffective. Uncomfortable for all, especially Ireland.
So essentially Leave broke the law and lied all to get us to this crappola. Well played. So chances of people being sensible and calling it all off?
Uncomfortable for all, especially Ireland.
Well probably more uncomfortable for the UK.....You can see why they didn't want to publish it all. It's a complete balls up on all fronts.
There is basically 1 deal on offer, the terms of it are now clear and the implications of it are too.
Nobody wants that deal.
Nobody wants that deal.
Here's the thing, come next year, if we Leave, it will be on terms only a small proportion of the population, and of MPs, can countenance. This has long been the case. The path towards this exit was clear a long time ago. MPs, scared of being called undemocrats by the Media, allowed the two party leaders to whip them to back laws that enable the government to leave with either a bad deal, or no deal, before either were explored and explained. Now we're heading for a failure of democracy, with the country taking a path with little to no backing in the country at large, or in parliament.
Looking back its easy to see the signs of this "approach" to managing the electorate. Social media and Facebook in particular have facilitated this (knowingly) Zuckerbergs wealth is little more than protection money. If you wrote a book back in 2005 using all this as a premise no one would have taken it seriously.
We have gone off the cliff into a whole new level of chaos and misery. What little democracy we had was bought and sold to the chaos merchants.
George Bush's funeral today shows how far the right wing of the Republican party has taken contol when he was viewed almost as a liberal. Tony Blair sounds like the voice of reason.
I track other blogs and the level of open racism, islamaphobia and sheer utter hatred for immigrants the EU and remainers is horrific. Half this country hates with a passion the other half. The sheer volume of people who have had their heads ****ed with by Facebook, Arron Banks, Farage, Tommy Robinson, Cambridge Analytica is staggering. Even the BBC only sticks Brexit nutters on the TV Tim Wetherspoon now has specials? Farage, JRM et al dominate the news.
This will get much worse.
We need to make Facebook history for starters
El-Bent, who are “they”? The Jews?
Funny guy.
Thus, the rule goes – don’t erode trust in government completely and fully.
Quoting a yesterday man, Che.
A bunch of half arsed ERG or tea party ****waffles aren’t capable of doing that though
The tea party succeeded. While the ERG won't succeed this time, don't forget about the "ordinary torys" who have been eroding the state apparatus for the last 40 or so years.
We need to make Facebook history for starters
Symptom not the problem there. Just need to work out how to regulate and run it better.
On R4 now...
John Humphreys: “...but Prime Minister, you just keep repeating the same mantra.”
The Maybot: “No I don’t keep repeating the same mantra. As I said before...”
We need to make Facebook history for starters
You can't simply ban stuff like this that's already in use. We're all used to social media now and we depend on it for a lot of social contact with people who aren't nearby. You might need to place restrictions on them though.
Maybot on radio 4 trying to tell everyone that black is white and that somehow her deal means ‘taking back control’ when it clearly doesn’t mean anything of the sort.
I’d love to see a bit of honesty and for her to state the bleeding obvious. Magic Unicorns don’t exist and the half-baked idea that you can leave the EU but retain the benefits was always bollocks, so shall we just forget the whole thing?
The phrase ‘Frustrating Brexit’ has clearly been programmed in this morning
Sounds like she is positioning herself for a quick exit when her deal is voted down. However this would be rather out of character for her.
Also notable that she said "no brexit at all" more times in that interview than anyone said in the first two years post referendum.
I wonder if her programmer intended for there to be a double meaning in the phrase "frustrating Brexit" because yes, it is.