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The sort of thing you could have put on a Remain bus, if they had one.
That’s not true. We don’t have to pay to leave at all,
Sorry we have to settle our tab on the way out, we still have to pay it, we are still going to pay it and we will still be paying more than we pay into the EU over the next few years. There is no brexit dividend, it does not exist - think that covers it.
Correct. And because we’re leaving we won’t see the benefits of our investment. Doh!
Ongoing projects will still recive funding untill their completed. So some of the divorce bill will come back to us.
of course we have to settle our tab on the way out the door. That's how contracts work. You sign up to something and then you do it.....
Actually we will lose funding for some projects, the govt has promised to make that up so that is yet more costs. I've recently applied for €250k for example that will have to come from the UK if we leave (and if I get awarded it, which to be honest is a long shot).
Ongoing projects will still recive funding untill their completed. So some of the divorce bill will come back to us.
Agreed, if you mean things like EU grants for roads in remote areas of UK. But we're out of EU projects like Galileo.
The "divorce bill" which will be paid over a very long time because a significant proportion relates to pensions which will continue to be paid until death of the pensioner or spouse, if later. As Taxi25 rightly says some of it will come back, but there will certainly be no year in which our payment will be anything like our present contribution, so there will be a saving at this level. However, what the bill shows is that the true annual cost of membership was considerably understated by using the cash figures in the campaign, a less circumspect individual might accuse the Remain side of lying.
The Institute of Government estimate Brexit spending in Whitehall will be about £2 billion so again considerably less than that the contribution to the EU budget.
We are already in the EU so know to a high level what the future would be like if we stayed in.
As the financial ads says "past Performance is no guide to the future". Macron wants fundamental change, he wants to build a European Empire, whilst Cameron to his credit protected us from some impacts, there is no question the EU is likely to look very different within 10 years, a point which was only occasionally discussed in the campaign.
The Institute of Government estimate Brexit spending in Whitehall will be about £2 billion so again considerably less than that the contribution to the EU budget.
Hang on forecast can't be true..... You can't have it both ways there.
How much have we spent so far? What will we spend outside of Whitehall? How much will these borders cost?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/29/britain-bill-brexit-hits-500-million-pounds-a-week
That's the problem that relying on an economically illiterate newspaper, they regard unprovable lost growth as a cost, but they have form they are always going on about unfunded tax cuts, which is a completely ridiculous use of language.
The IOG numbers are based on actual out turn, figures included in departmental budgets and an small element of forecast, so whilst not perfect, certainly more accurate than a long term forecast.
So give us better figures then.....
Did anyone else laugh at the irony of the PM saying there might be a second commons vote for MPs if the deal doesn't get passed first time?
I'm a little confused as to why letting tha MPs vote again would be democratic, but letting the people vote in a second referendum would be anti-democratic...
Twice in a few weeks, the ****ing hypocrites. Not to mention the ****puffins in the cabinet who were for the deal before they were against it. Change their minds much?
Macron wants fundamental change, he wants to build a European Empire,
Which could be the first step towards a global integration of people. Once people stop thinking of a specific region as theirs that they own and regard it as a contributor to the whole perhaps we can break the cycles of aggression and poverty. Not to go all Star Trek but the plant is quite small and to have all of these tiny tribes (and tribes within tribes) where we believe we are intrinsically better than people 99.99% the same as us is ****ing primitive
Yep the day we only use countries for sport will be progress
I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that if you have or want a local, regional or national identity or boundaries it makes you think you're better than others. You can be different, live in different places, have borders separating those places and still be equal.
I would like less government. The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level. Schools, transport, libraries, social care I could go on. When they wanted to close the local park near me it was a petition of local people and a local councillor that saved it, not Westminster, the EU or the United Federation of Planets.
When they wanted to close the local park near me it was a petition of local people and a local councillor that saved it,
Westminster has never been about improving you life on a local level. It is about continuation of a country in a global market. The first thing they fight for is their prestige and place at the big boys table by using your work and skills (or cash) as a lever.
once you get rid of the braying and the I am better than you to begin cooperating things get better for more people. For me this has been the big success of the EU. Trouble is it has upset the feelings of order and Britannia can’t feel superior to those Eastern Europeans just leaving the soviet block and people are all butt hurt. Much like if a colleague gets a raise and you don’t.
And whilst we're talking about ' global integration of people' how did that work out for the Syrian refugees that ended up in detention camps in Greece or sent back to Turkey who sent them back to a war zone despite receiving the EU billions? Freedom of movement didn't work out too well for them. Or the 13000 refugees expelled from Algeria, after pressure from the EU, and forced to walk across the Sahara back to Niger. Freedom of movement must seem like a great policy to them too.
Fortress Europe very much still seems to think of a specific region as 'theirs'
Well the neoliberalist policies of the UK and the EU on the global market has done wonders for some in the country.
Between 2007 and 2015 real wages fell in Britain by 10.4%, the biggest fall in leading OECD countries, whilst during the same period the richest 1000 people saw there wealth double by £576 billion
So give us better figures then…..
I did, but I am not the one who goes on about solid facts to prove or disprove a case, all information is imperfect, one has to make a judgement, Tetlock reckons there are super forecasters in the world, but invariably they are not the professed experts.
Fortress Europe very much still seems to think of a specific region as ‘theirs’
Very much so, they are not a bunch of hippies - although the hippies have swallowed it hook line and sinker.
Yehy let's rebuild a massively expensive system that we are already heavily involved with for the the sake of it.
Who's gonna pay for it? It'll have to be payed for by taxing the average person, because big multinationals don't pay tax.. Further cuts to the NHS and other public services to prop it up?
and another minister gone
Quite, the free movement of people isn't some benevolent right handed down to us by the good grace of the EU. Along with the other free movements, capital, goods and freedom to establish services, it's a means to grease the wheels of capitalism. Any side effects like nice holidays in Picardy are just coincidental.
The official road map
'official' ? Lol!
I would like less government. The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level
So local government then?
The problem there is if others, say corporations, operate on the larger stage the local governments will often be outmatched and need to band together to counter it.
Between 2007 and 2015 real wages fell in Britain by 10.4%, the biggest fall in leading OECD countries
Well you can’t discount the crash and the impact of the Bank of England printing money to keep the wheels rolling. In fact there was an piece this week talking about how this stabilised the place but caused wage depression/stagnation.
The trouble is if people expect to earn more each year, pay less for goods but still have their investments (businesses) turning over higher profits someone somewhere will need to be getting less...
I would like less government. The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level. Schools, transport, libraries, social care I could go on. When they wanted to close the local park near me it was a petition of local people and a local councillor that saved it, not Westminster, the EU or the United Federation of Planets.
What affects your daily life? The kinds of treatments and medicines available in your nearest hospital?The range of foods available in your shops? The cleanliness of the air you breath? The purity of the water you drink? Ensuring your personal data is safe from being abused, or that hostile bombs are not being dropped on your head? These are big considerations, and not normally in the remit of the gallant local councillor that saved your local park.
Thanks for pointing out the inherent problem with capitalism. Business profiting from and exploiting peoples labour.
As the financial ads says “past Performance is no guide to the future”.
So past performance and the fact that it is a slow moving organisation (deliberately due to the number of countries involved) is not a good guide of how it will the EU will look in 10 years time, i.e. very similar?
I would say I could put together a solid forecast of how the UK would be fairing in 10 years time if still in the EU however I don't think anyone can really do that if we drop out.
I would like less government. The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level
You need both levels of government as they are responsible for different things with different priorities. Not sure what less government would look like, which stuff would no longer be governed in your idea?
The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level
LOL he's so used to the standard background status quo of a modern developed state that he doesn't even think that things like security, stability, democracy and a functioning economy are worth mentioning! They aren't issues precisely because that stable modern state has ensured them for you.
Less government can mean both less things being governed and less layers of government, I meant the latter. I think you knew that but as always in this thread when the echo chamber throws back a discordant sound, straw men appear everywhere to be burnt.
Thanks for pointing out the inherent problem with capitalism. Business profiting from and exploiting peoples labour.
Heres a fairly common Brexiteer opinion I’ve been seeing.
What I was wondering: with the majority of the country voting to leave the EU should it not have been the goal of the UK through its negotiations to destroy them? That is to bring the rotten structure to an end? And as a so called 'no deal' is now the only way to fulfil the referendum result shouldn't we use this to bring their demise with aggressive deregulation? After all they are stuck with their regulations (they're not easy to change) whilst we would be free to do as we please to make our country function effectively.
Good luck seeing an end to the exploitation of labour 👍
Less government can mean both less things being governed and less layers of government, I meant the latter. I think you knew that but as always in this thread when the echo chamber throws back a discordant sound, straw men appear everywhere to be burnt.
I didn't know that you meant less layers but have a rant about echo chambers by all means. Which layers of government would you remove?
and less layers of government,
We have effectively 3, UK, Shire and Parish. Pick one...
Well seeing as this is a thread about the EU I'd think that would be pretty obvious.
I prefer to judge someone by their actions not words. I don't exploit labour neither is my labour exploited.
Another section of society who were lied to.
I prefer to judge someone by their actions not words. I don’t exploit labour neither is my labour exploited.
He has been a proponent for de regulation for as long as I can remember. You pretend to yourself otherwise if you like.
Fortress Europe very much still seems to think of a specific region as ‘theirs’
😂😂😂
As opposed to the welcoming arms of immigrant adoring Brexiters
That's a comedy gem whattiler !
The EUs attempts to handle the migration crisis may have fallen well short of what was needed but brexit has been all about rejecting immigrants at the 'local level' your argument seems schizophrenic.
At least youve stopped pretending that the EU stops us from going on strike etc
The monstrous EU up to now has permitted me to freely go and live in many countries with little beurocracy. Yes there are rules around it, however now post Brexit, there are proposals to have landlords and employers check the legality and immigration status of people looking for a job or a place to stay. Is this the reduced level of government interference you were alluding to?
Also, I cannot see how reduced government red tape will reduce worker exploitation rather than increase it.
Kimbers, that's just whataboutery and doesn't change the fact that the EU has acted despicably when to comes to refugees.
athgray. That's my point, you in your relatively well off position from inside fortress Europe are permitted freely to go wherever you want. Not so easy from inside a detention centre in Greece.
As for long term costs, according to IFG £2bn spent so far and 20,000 new civil servants since the ref, when we desperately need to reverse the effects of austerity, police, social care, youth outreach,
instead we are spending it on red tape to give us less rights & make the country poorer. Brexit has extended austerity.
Growth estimates are just that, even if the guardian's reference is 10fold out that's still £bns wasted (I suppose really they should be giving a probability like they do with chance of rain)
As for Gimyah, as universities minister he should be well aware of the damage brexit is alteady doing to the sector.
the fact that the EU has acted despicably when to comes to refugees.
Yep they caved totally to the populists & Brexiters of the world and the UK is the pinnacle of it with the little englander brexit dream.
You actually believe that? That's the best justification of their policy you can think of. There's not much point continuing this if that's what you believe.
So why do you think Merkel reduced the number of refugees after the first million or so ?
How do you think brexit will help the plight of migrants entering Europe?
No longer members of the EU, how will we help to change their policies ?
How did u feel about the tories voting against sanctioning Hungary for its stance on migrants in return for support for brexit?
I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to care for migrants when you're siding with the likes of Katie Hopkins over brexit
Someone else I’ve never heard of has just resigned over Mays deal
Someone else I’ve never heard of has just resigned over Mays deal
Don't worry, they will just be replaced by another person you have never heard of. There is a pretty endless list of people who want promotion.
Along with the other free movements, capital, goods and freedom to establish services, it’s a means to grease the wheels of capitalism
I'm sort of interested in this. I understand fully the point about capitalism, but don't understand how more borders and more separation between states is a good thing. If you're coming at this from a leftwing perspective (as I assume you are), then the primary goal should be the destruction or dissolution of national borders. You can't take a leftwing view of widening equality if you then just ringfence it in an arbitrary area. Yes, at this point in time the lack of borders enables capitalists to get rich. That's because we live in a capitalist society, not because we have open borders.
Some real assumptions there Kimbers. There have been plenty of studies to show that not all people who want to leave the EU are anti immigration, Lord Ashcroft's for one. You'll have to take my word for it. I am not anti immigration. Given the choice of either/or I would rather have immigration from countries that we were complicit in destroying than from relatively well off countries in Europe. However why des it have to be either/or. Nobody has come up with a fact based reason as to why free movement of people is in fact free movement of some (or the right type) of people, without resorting to logical fallacies and rhetoric. The biggest logical fallacy being that because I voted to leave the EU I am a rabid anti migrant such as Katie Hopkins. Have you any fact based arguments to explain the deficiencies of freedom of movement from outside the EU?
Just read the article posted above about curry houses
There won't be more people coming from outside the EU post Brexit
dazh - correct I am an internationalist. The EU for me, as I have already posited, is not a benevolent exponent of open borders for the sake of all, it's limited in it's benevolence to those that can bring something to it's raison d'etre, the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism. Unfortunately, those from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and sub Saharan Africa can't, which is why they're dying by their thousands in the Mediterranean.
Totally agree on the stance towards non-EU migrants. What's going on in the Med is indefensible. However I really don't see how leaving helps. I pretty much agree with the left-internationalist criticisms of the EU, but leaving will only add fuel to the nationalist rightwing side of the argument, not the opposite. Leaving the EU doesn't make it more likely that we will have a more leftwing society, the very opposite in fact. There is much more in common between the EU and the left than there is between the left and the nationalist nutters.
the Daily Desperate
I am sure Mogg Boris and Co are going to do lots for refugees 🙄
Do people really believe that?
So because Mogg, Boris and CO aren't going to do anything for refugees, then that justifies that the EU are also not going to anything for refugees.
Another logical fallacy.
Next
whattiler - how do you think leaving the EU will help refugees if we are talking logical fallacies?
Answering a question with a question
Again, a logical fallacy
The EU is doing a lot more that is for sure !
@whattiler - I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say here.
You're talking about the EU's treatment of people from non-EU countries, which to be honest I know very little about. But what would you rather see instead? Are you arguing in favour of a freedom-of-movement agreement globally?
Also, just so I'm clear, are you talking about refugees or immigration?
Cheers.
I am just asking for someone to explain the dichotomy between the EU's freedom of movement and it's treatment of refugees.
Hmmmmmmm - lets try again.
How does the UK leaving the EU help refugees?
I am assuming you are not an ignorant troll and am genuinely interested in your view on this. I just can't see from your previous posts any explanation that I can understand how the act of the UK leaving the EU helps refugees in any way.
My perspective is that the current Brexit turmoil is making our country more introspective and less likely to help refugees. Please help me understand why you think I am wrong (I want to be wrong by the way!)
No, you've got it dead on, I'm just an ignorant troll. Just an ignorant troll who's still waiting for an answer to my question.
@whattiler – I’m a little confused as to what you’re trying to say here.
Don't worry, I don't think you are alone. I call trolling.
Thanks for confirmation whattiler.
Look, I've raised a point about an EU policy that is very obviously indefensible, so all I get back is more questions, ad homs, logical fallacies. What's the point? Can someone please ban me from this forum.
The EU for me, as I have already posited, is not a benevolent exponent of open borders for the sake of all, it’s limited in it’s benevolence to those that can bring something to it’s raison d’etre, the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism.
Go on then I'll bite. Firstly I'd disagree that the primary aim of the EU is the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism. The EU/EEC/whatever was setup to engender greater cooperation between European nations with the primary aim of avoiding more catastrophic wars. The main method of achieving this was alignment and redistribution of wealth across borders through trade and other economic policies. In this it has been spectacularly successful.
However, an inevitable result of this is that it became a vehicle for capitalists to make money, and given global political inclination towards neoliberalism, the EU encapsulated many of those policies into it's laws. It didn't invent neo-liberalism, it just adopted it, just like every other major economic power in the world was doing.
As for it's stance to open borders, given that the EU has expanded to 28 nations from it's core of only a few I hardly think it can be accused of insular parochialism. I can't think of any other political or economic union or alliance which has been so open and accommodating with regard to opening it's borders to foreigners. Yes, there are problems in the med. That simply means that what the EU has done needs to be expanded beyond the reaches of the continent. How this would work I don't know, but there's no reason it couldn't given sufficient political will. One thing I do know is that this will never happen if it's major members start to leave and follow their own blinkered self interests. The solution to the migration crisis is more cooperation between nations, not less.
I am just asking for someone to explain the dichotomy between the EU’s freedom of movement and it’s treatment of refugees.
You could petition your councillor that kept your local park open to sort out the problem of Greece's refugee camps.
The EU is far from perfect, however I would prefer that we were in it and being proactive in trying to correct it's mistakes. For too many people now it becomes convenient that we can now say this is someone else's problem.
Post Brexit Britians mentality will be a far less sympathetic place to the plight of refugees than before. This is undeniable IMO.
This is a Local government for local people. There's nothing for you here!!
Some ask what’s the point of The Maybot going round the country trying to get the public on her side ahead of the Commons vote on the 11th?
After all, they won’t be influencing that vote...
Well, she’s grooming them for the one coming along after that. 😉
Can someone please ban me from this forum.
No-one is forcing you to post.
Look, I’ve raised a point about an EU policy that is very obviously indefensible, so all I get back is more questions, ad homs, logical fallacies. What’s the point?
What is the point? People are engaging with your posts, what would you have them do instead? Twenty people sitting there going "yup, you're absolutely right mate" doesn't really make for scintillating discussions.
@dazh said he totally agreed with you that the situation around the Med was indefensible, I've said that I know very little about it and asked for clarification as to what you were getting at, you then get all pouty because people are asking you questions.
I doubt you'll find many people here who believe the EU is perfect, so any argument which has a basis in "the EU isn't perfect because..." is built on sand because we already know this. Using it as a justification for leaving is akin to burning your house down because you hated the wallpaper.
Can someone please ban me from this forum.
I can, yes. I'd rather not though, it's nice to have different opinions around. Email moderator@ with your request if you're actually being serious rather than just having a temper tantrum.
**** me that Express headline is desperate. Give the chavs Brexit or they won’t max out their credit cards on tat for Christmas. Really?
Australia. , Canada , New Zealand.and to a certain extent the U.S.
All successful countries and all examples of what Europeans can achive if we stop ****ing around having wars and instead work together.
correct I am an internationalist. The EU for me, as I have already posited, is not a benevolent exponent of open borders for the sake of all, it’s limited in it’s benevolence to those that can bring something to it’s raison d’etre, the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism.
Globalisation and neoliberalism were around before the EU, What the EU are doing in the face of it is setting its own rules, rules in which we once had a say in.
If you are not careful you fall into the internationalism that the likes of free market capitalists want, no trade barriers, no rules, no tariffs.
Unfortunately, those from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and sub Saharan Africa can’t, which is why they’re dying by their thousands in the Mediterranean.
If you let what is perceived to be too many foreigners in, then populists make capital of it, Hungary, Italy, Poland, certain some parts of Germany, Czech republic etc, and then you start to lose everything, and the lesson of the times here is the UK and how Brexit was achieved. My only reservation of the EU is if the populists gain control of it then the chants of "Europeans only" starts.
A small footnote is the countries above that I have mentioned, apart from the UK, all have something in common, in the recent past they have either been under the control of fascism, communism or both. Perhaps they need to be swept out a little like West Germany was after WW2.
Look, I’ve raised a point about an EU policy that is very obviously indefensible
The EU is a group of countries. While the governments of those countries are either running scared of, or actively supported by, anti-immigrant populations, then the EU isn't going to be able to force them to open their borders to non-EU migration… thinking that it can do this is to have bought into the idea that the EU is some how a top down system, rather than a rule based system where the member countries agree and set the rules.
Any EU country can choose to do more, for more, refugees. Just like any non-EU country can.
There are attempts by some EU countries to get agreement between all the EU countries to "spread the load", and that isn't going well… but, once again, the resistance to that is at the national level.
To pick up on the idea that more local decision making ends up with less government take a look at the US or Australia where lots of stuff is done at the state level, it's a mess, whats that the rules for car testing is different across the border, the tax rates in the US!! http://www.salestaxstates.com/
The migrant crisis of the was a massive challenge for the entire EU, now we won't have any say in making that better.
As for the idea that all leave voters are immigrant hating bigots we did deal with that a while back a lot, but we did establish that nearly all the immigrant hating bigots did vote leave.
Globalisation and neoliberalism were around before the EU, What the EU are doing in the face of it is setting its own rules, rules in which we once had a say in.
Not only that, the EU has played a large part in promoting and improving employment rights for the workforce, preventing a race to the bottom in exploitation. Of course its an ongoing struggle vs zero-hours contracts etc. but the idea that it's some neoliberal conspiracy is laughable.