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March maybe?
Na, that's tattie planting season, and the red army marches on tatties, brother.
If the labour party abstains from the vote.....
OK, it is on, lets see Corbyn's true colours.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1064812901318516737
Tory remainers are effectively begging the labour party to get on board and oppose.
I'm predicting the sound of silence, bar the echoing of Kier Starmer banging his head repeatedly against a brick wall.
Consistently the likes of Nikki Morgan, Sarah Woolaston and Anna Sourby have provided an infinitely more effective 'opposition' to this madness than anyone on the labour front bench. They've certainly been considerably more vocal! mind you.... my cats been more vocal in its opposition to brexit than Corbyn
Apparently Starmer has been minutes away from resigning on a number of occasions, totally frustrated at Corbyns detachment, disinterest and inaction. Every concession made by Corbyn (in that any activity at all to oppose Brexit seems to be an inconvenience to him) is because he's been bounced into by Kier Starmer
Got to say I am enjoying reading Sarah Wollaston's twitter feed.
https://twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1064789919007211521
Bottom line is Jezza wants a hard Brexit. You lot just don’t want too/won’t acknowledge this.
Binners, we acknowledge this, but what you don't acknowledge is that the Labour party doesn't do what Corbyn wants, it does what the party wants. Which might not be what its leader wants.
I really do not believe he does. I am still awaiting some evidence of him saying so.
So why are May and co so desperate to stop the scottish court case going to the EU court? Are they afraid that it will show brexit an be stopped? They have lost in every court in the UK now.
Binners - Corbyn has repeatedly been saying stuff on brexit. Its not a silence. Its just not very dramatic compared to tory infighting thus gets little news coverage. Its not what you want to hear but to insist he has been silent is utter rubbish - same as your claims he didn't campaign is utter rubbish and he wants a hard brexit -is nonsense without any evidence to back it up.
Here is the text of his speech to the CBI:
Thank you Carolyn for that introduction. You became the Director-General of the CBI shortly before I became Leader of the Labour Party, and since that time Labour and the CBI have always had a very constructive and fruitful working relationship, which will no doubt continue in the future as we set a path for a more successful and prosperous society.
It is a pleasure to be here today, addressing you at such a crucial time in our country’s politics and national life. It’s a time of huge decisions that could shape our future for a generation or more: decisions about our relationship with the European Union, of course, but also about the kind of economy we want to have.
When I spoke to your conference last year I said that even though we were then seventeen months on from the referendum, the situation was more precarious than ever. Confusion at the heart of government was creating unprecedented uncertainty for business and workers across the country.
If I said the same today that would count as something of an understatement. Instead of national leadership, we have a Government in complete disarray. As soon as the terms of its Withdrawal Agreement from the EU were set down on paper, the Government began to collapse in on itself. And now the Conservative Party is trying to decide whether this crucial moment for our country is also the right time for a party leadership election.
That the Government has mishandled two years of negotiations is now hardly a controversial view, subjecting businesses and their workforces to months of uncertainty. Some perhaps hoped that the length of the negotiations might at least be a sign that the Government, rather than negotiating with itself more than with Brussels, was driving an effective and hard bargain to get the best deal for our economy.
Now we know the answer. After the events of the past week, many people and many businesses will be confused and anxious. The Prime Minister has negotiated a botched, worst-of-all-worlds deal which is bad for Britain, leaving the country in an indefinite halfway house without a real say.
The Withdrawal Agreement breaches Theresa May’s own red lines and doesn’t deliver the strong economic settlement the country needs to support jobs and industry. The deal makes no mention of retaining frictionless trade with Europe and offers only minimal protections for workers, consumers and our environment, while hard-wiring further potential restrictions on state aid for industry.
Labour has always said we respect the result of the referendum, but we cannot respect the shambolic way in which this Government has bungled these vital negotiations. This is after all a deal that was immediately denounced by the Brexit Secretary who was supposed to have negotiated it, as well as his predecessor. Labour will vote against the Government’s deal and if the Government cannot get its central policy through Parliament, then we will demand a General Election. But if we cannot secure a General Election, then we have been clear that all options must remain on the table, including a public vote.
Terry Sargent, the Chair and CEO of steel giant Thyssenkrupp in the UK – and a lifelong Conservative voter – recently said the Tories have “failed business”. They “aren’t making decisions for business” he said, “they are making decisions to prevent an implosion in their own party.”
The result of this skewed priority is a Brexit deal that is simply not good enough. Rather than ending the uncertainty of the last two-and-a-half years, the agreement the Government has negotiated locks in uncertainty for another two, three, four – who knows how many more years?
If a comprehensive future relationship is not agreed by January 2021, which few believe is likely after the experience so far, then those negotiations would have to be put on hold because the focus would inevitably shift from negotiating the future relationship to negotiating an extension to the transition period – meaning another period of further uncertainty.
And if the transition period can’t be extended, Britain will be locked into a backstop from which it cannot leave without the agreement of the EU, with no time limit or end point and no say for Britain, sowing the seeds of a backlash in years to come.
And that’s only the Withdrawal Agreement. The Outline Political Declaration that was also published last week, which is supposed to signal our future relationship with the EU after Brexit, runs to a mighty seven pages.
So after two whole years, the fruits of the Government’s efforts to outline our trading future can be set down on just seven sheets of paper – with no ambition to negotiate a new comprehensive customs union, no clear plan for a strong deal with the single market, merely a vague commitment to go beyond the baseline of the WTO, no determination to achieve frictionless trade or even the Prime Minister’s downgraded ambition for trade to be “as frictionless as possible” (meaning further uncertainty for business), and only the scantest mention of workers’ rights, consumer rights, or environmental protections.
After all the speculation about which adjective to use before the word Brexit — hard, soft, clean, red white and blue, the Prime Minister is trying to take us into a blindfold Brexit, a deal designed to get her through to the next stage of the process without anyone being able to see where we’re heading as a country. It’s a leap in the dark, an ill-defined deal with a never defined end date.
A blindfold Brexit, followed by further years of botched negotiations on our future relationship with the EU with most of our leverage already thrown away, risks seriously damaging British industry and the wider economy. The Government is trying to force through this bad deal by threatening us all with the chaos and serious damage to our economy of a no deal outcome.
But the Prime Minister knows that no deal isn’t a real option. Neither the cabinet nor Parliament would endorse such an extreme and frankly dangerous course.
Labour will not countenance a no deal Brexit. I fully understand why business, which knows how disastrous no deal would be, is so concerned at the prospect, and why some might feel under pressure to support any deal, no matter how botched and half-baked, to avoid a worse outcome.
But the threat simply isn’t realistic. If the Government believed no deal was a genuine option, it would have made serious preparations, but it hasn’t. Indeed, shortly before he quit, the former Brexit secretary revealed that he had only just found out that the UK is “particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing” because we are, as he put it a “peculiar geographic entity” – by which I think he meant an island. Well, we’re only talking about 10,000 lorries a day arriving at Dover handling 17% of the country’s entire trade in goods, worth an estimated £122 billion last year.
The choice between Theresa May’s deal and no deal is a false choice, designed to scare people into backing the Government. So Labour has set out an alternative plan for a sensible jobs-first agreement that could win support in parliament and help bring our country together.
First, we want a new comprehensive and permanent customs union with a British say in future trade deals that would ensure no hard border in Northern Ireland and avoid the need for the government’s half-baked backstop deal. Businesses and workers need certainty. The Tories’ sticking plaster plan for a temporary customs arrangement, with no clarity on how long it will last and no British say, can only prolong the uncertainty and put jobs and prosperity at risk.
Second, a sensible deal must guarantee a strong single market relationship. Talk of settling for a downgraded Canada-style arrangement is an option popular only on the extremes of the Tory Party. It would be a risk to our economy, jobs and investment in our schools, hospitals and vital public services.
Third, a deal that works for Britain must also guarantee that our country doesn’t fall behind the EU in workers’ rights or protections for consumers and the environment. Britain should be a world leader in rights and standards. We won’t let this Conservative Government use Brexit as an excuse for a race to the bottom in protections, to rip up our rights at work or to expose our children to chlorinated chicken by running down our product standards.
A good Brexit plan for this country is not just about what can be negotiated with Brussels. It must also include a radical programme of investment and real change across our regions and nations. Brexit should be the catalyst to invest in our regions and infrastructure, bringing good jobs and real control to local communities and people.
If the Prime Minister is unable to negotiate an agreement that can win a majority in parliament and work for the whole country, Labour’s alternative plan can and must take its place.
The deal I have outlined has always been possible, putting the economy and jobs first, as both Labour and the CBI have argued in different ways for some time. In January, Carolyn called for the UK to remain in a customs union with the EU for the long term. And we agree with the CBI too on the need for a deal that guarantees a strong single market relationship. There is a better deal to be had and it’s not too late to achieve it – if the Prime Minister has the courage to change course, or stand aside and let Labour take the reins.
The responsibility for how we got to this point certainly lies in Downing Street, both with its current incumbent and her predecessor.
But there is a bigger story to tell. In 2016 the country voted to leave the EU against the economic backdrop of post-crash Britain: a million families using food banks, over 4 million children living in poverty and real wages that are lower today than they were in 2010.
In towns and cities hollowed out by industrial decline and neglect, with boarded up shops and closed youth centres, many people voted for Brexit as an act of protest against a political system that simply wasn’t delivering.
At the root of this was Britain’s profoundly unbalanced economy, chronic under-investment and failed economic policy. That needs to change.
The shape of our economy after Brexit will not only be determined by the text negotiated in Brussels. It will be driven by political decisions about the direction we wish to take as a country. We could try to carry on as before, with economic thinking that has fuelled instability, insecurity and crisis. Or we can embrace change and build a more equal and prosperous society that meets people’s hopes and needs.
So today I not only want to talk about getting a good deal with the EU but about getting a good deal for all our country’s people.
You may be working for a big company, struggling with increasing personal debt, striving to meet excessive rent or mortgage payments. You may be running a small business, scraping by week to week awaiting payments to come in to cover ever-rising overheads. You may be employed in the public sector having barely seen a pay rise in 10 years but working harder than ever as many of your colleagues have lost their jobs Or you may be surviving in the precarious economy as one in every nine working people now are, maybe getting paid the minimum wage on a zero-hours contract, instantly sackable, never knowing for sure whether you’ll have work from one day to the next.
When people such as these think about the economy – of course they’re asking what’s in it for me?
Household debt is rising, rents are rising, utility bills are rising, while the public services we rely on are shrinking in terms of what they can provide; social care, the NHS and children’s education.
Last week almost unnoticed amid the drama of cabinet resignations, Professor Philip Alston, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, published a damning report on poverty in the UK. He found that a fifth of the population, amounting to 14 million people, are living in poverty. He catalogued what he described as the “dramatic decline in the fortunes of the least well off” and said our rates of child poverty are “not just a disgrace, but a social calamity and an economic disaster.”
The fact is that wealth hasn’t trickled down. Instead, rigid and outdated economic thinking has helped create a situation where 20% of Britain’s wealth is in the hands of just 1% of the population making us one of the most unequal countries in the EU. Inflated boardroom bonuses haven’t made our economy stronger or more successful. Corporation tax cuts haven’t increased investment and growth or put more money in workers’ pay packets. And financial deregulation didn’t deliver self-regulating markets but an era-defining economic crash from which we are still struggling to recover.
It could not be clearer, business as usual isn’t working. And when the rules of the game aren’t working for the overwhelming majority, the rules of the game need to change.
That means a new settlement for business and a stronger say for the workforce where government will drive a higher rate of investment in infrastructure, education, skills and the technologies of the future. The largest businesses that can afford it will pay a bit more towards the common good.
So we will repeal the 2016 Trade Union Act and roll out sectoral collective bargaining to ensure that working people can be fairly represented through their trade unions. At the Labour Party Annual Conference in September we set out proposals to give workers a say, and a stake, in larger businesses. We will legislate to ensure a third of the seats on company boards are reserved for elected worker-directors. And we will give employees a stake in company profits by asking big businesses to transfer shares to be held by workers in trust.
Despite the frenzied reactions in certain sections of the press this certainly isn’t about any kind of war on business, rather the opposite. Labour recognises the vast and vital contribution businesses make to our economy and our society. And at the heart of that contribution are your employees. They have an interest in the long-term success of your company – their company. They have in-depth knowledge of its day to day workings. They have so much to contribute and giving them a real voice will strengthen, not weaken, the business. Workers create profits. Giving workers a share in them isn’t just fair, it’s good for business.
We believe our plans are necessary, not just to create a fairer economy that can command public legitimacy, but to rebuild our economy for the 21st century and raise productivity and investment in every region, nation and community. We share an understanding of the urgent need to increase public investment in the economy and if the public is going to invest on the scale needed then people need to feel they have a real say over their economic future.
The UK is the only major economy where investment is falling not rising. That is holding back our economy, innovation and productivity. The failure to invest means Britain’s productivity is 15% lower than that of other major economies.
So a future Labour government will develop a comprehensive Industrial Strategy to rebalance our economy, reduce our reliance on the financial sector centred in London and the South East and increase prosperity in every region and nation of the UK. We will follow the example of Germany and Canada in establishing a National Investment Bank and a network of Regional Development Banks. These will provide £250 billion of private lending capital to emerging businesses and co-operatives across the country, getting the money to where it’s needed and filling the gaps in lending left by private banks.
But as well as the lending gap we are also determined to close the skills gap. Labour will create a National Education Service to provide both vocational and academic training to anyone who wants it throughout their life. That is the best way to ensure people are equipped with the skills they need to flourish. Because education doesn’t just benefit the individual who receives it, it benefits the economy and society as a whole.
We recognise that to close the skills gap we cannot close ourselves off from the rest of the world. When the Tories talk about high skilled immigration, what they actually mean is high wage immigration. That won’t solve the shortages of nurses, care workers and builders we desperately need and vital to rebuilding an economy that works for all.
There is nothing to gain from false competition between good and bad migration which only whips up division and hatred. Having seen the consequences of this government’s hostile environment with the Windrush Scandal, few will be convinced that this government is capable of delivering either a fair or efficient migration system.
Britain’s infrastructure – its roads, its railways and its telecommunications desperately needs an upgrade. That is why Labour is also planning to create a National Transformation Fund. This will provide a further £250 billion, making sure we have the infrastructure we need to achieve our potential.
We’ve been talking a lot today about the urgency and importance of the choices we face over Brexit but in a very real sense the most serious and pressing challenge we face of all is the potential decimation of our planet. That’s why it’s our policy to aim for 60% of heat and electricity to come from low carbon or renewable sources by 2030 and to achieve net zero emissions before 2050.
The Conservative Government has overseen a 56% fall in investment in renewable energy over the last year. The next Labour Government will put our environment centre stage.
That doesn’t have to mean sacrifice, it’s a huge opportunity for businesses, jobs and communities. We will create 400,000 high-skilled, well-paid green jobs, cutting emissions and generating employment at the same time by increasing the production of offshore wind power sevenfold, doubling onshore wind power, trebling solar power and launching a £12.8 billion fund for home insulation.
These are bold plans but they are necessary if we are to meet the climate crisis head on and upgrade our economy for the 21st Century.
To tackle the greatest challenges facing our country today we shouldn’t fear change – we should embrace it. Deep-seated change is needed to avoid a damaging Brexit that will hurt enterprise, jobs and living standards, and instead use it as a catalyst for economic transformation.
Change is needed to prevent the destruction of our environment that endangers all of our futures. And change is needed to tackle the huge inequality that has distorted the economy and fractured our society.
A senior figure in public life recently warned that: “an economy in which the returns to capital are greater than the returns to labour is one in which support for capitalism is going to decline.”
This isn’t a quote from me or from John McDonnell. They are the words of the former Conservative Chancellor, George Osborne.
And he was absolutely right.
Business in Britain today faces a great future if it embraces the change we need for our economy and our society.
Labour is ready to lead that change and I invite you to join us to make that change together. To rebuild our economy and our country. So it really does work for the many, not the few.
There are also numerous other things from his speech to conference to numerous press releases and interviews.
I am still awaiting some evidence of him saying so.
So still ignoring how he has whipped the party at every vote so far. You have a religious zeal for blind faith, but his actions do not support his words.
[size=26]Labour will not countenance a no deal Brexit[/size]
direct quote from Corbyn
MSP - come on - lets see your evidence. Not a political act taken for political reasons ( If wrong IMO)but something from the man himself because ever public utterance says otherwise. I don't even mind something from 10 years ago before it was anything other than theoretical and he was without power or position. Just one little quote
I do not have either blind faith or religious zeal. I merely listen to what people say over and over again and tyake that to be their position.
Read his speeches. Find me the quote.
That speech was all about delivering a Labour Brexit. Nothing about any options to stop Brexit. Nothing about dropping his red line on Freedom of Movement… what does "strong Single Market relationship" mean within doing that? Why would the EU allow a third county a "say" in its trade deals with the rest of the world? And what does that mean? Just a nod through? Or would we have own people at the EU still taking part in trade deal forming? And does that mean he is no longer suggesting that we would be able to have our own trade deals?
Oh I agree its all a bit daft - better than the tories but not by much. Merely disproving his supposed silence adn merely showing he is opposed to a hard brexit unlike the claims above.
Also it clearly states a second referendum is one of the options they will pursue and that its a blueprint for a much softer brexit. Starting from a very differnt position to the tories.
Having a red line on Freedom of Movement means Hard Brexit as a result. Outside the Single Market.
Hang on, I think you might have fallen for the media trick of suggesting that Hard Brexit means no deal, rather than meaning outside EEA.
Nope - I'm not the one falling for media / PR tricks here. I prefer what people say to what their enemies claim they said.
Remember corbyns party is split wide open on brexit only by fudging and taking a median line can he hold them together. The divisions in Labour are going to be exposed as well.
MSP – come on – lets see your evidence
So political speeches are evidence, but political actions and voting record should be ignored? Do you even realise how desperately you are trying to twist perception.
His speeches are about as fanciful as tory speeches proclaiming NI border solutions. If a man's actions do not match his words, then I judge him by his actions, you are obviously more easily lead.
The house of lords has been a more effective opposition to Brexit FFS.
Corbyn went on holiday during the referendum campaign after refusing to attend the official Remain campaign launch. Not sure asking for Article 50 to be triggered the morning after the referendum result was the best idea either. His own brother has stated that Jezza is opposed to EU membership.
Jeepers you guys are so desparate to twist everything to condemn him its funny.
Pointless debating this with folk who believe without evidence. good political reasons for the vote to trigger a50 but you waon't want to hear them No one has yet come up with the slightest thing showing Corbyn wants to crash out with no deal or even have a "hard brexit" Every word he has said shows the opposite. If he really wanted a hard brexit you could show some speech he had made at some point that says this - the fact is every speech he has made shows the opposite.
He refused to stand with the tories in the official remain launch - quite right. He knows they are the enemy.
it clearly states a second referendum is one of the options they will pursue
Actually he clearly ruled out pursuing a second ref if he gets his dream of a general election and labour brexit.
Which isn't good enough for me to vote labour.
Pointless debating this with folk who believe without evidence.
It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
I agree with tj that corbyn clearly claims that he wants a much closer relationship with the EU than the present govt is aiming for. However, given his cakeist claims and his own red line on FoM it does not seem at all clear to me that he wouldn't end up in much the same place. No FoM, no SM. Simples.
Can someone tell me which constituency Rees Mogg represents? Just so I can avoid it, and the people that live there who somehow delivered enough votes to put him in Parliament. It must be a horrific place
Mogg is MP for North-East Somerset, so looks like you'll be avoiding Bath for a while.
Mogg is MP for North-East Somerset, so looks like you’ll be avoiding Bath for a while.
I'd been led to believe he was the member for the 18th century by some areas of the press.
Uncle Jezza. Many people have repeated this but... ahem...
1) Thirty years of ranting about, and voting against, the EU as a 'Capitalist Conspiracy'
2) Going totally AWOL during the referendum campaign
3) Calling a press conference the minute the result was declared demanding Article 50 be triggered immediately
4) Whipping his MPs to vote through activating article 50 (broke my irony filter, that one!)
5) Whipping his MPs to vote against remaining in the single market (broke my irony filter that I'd only just had fixed)
6) Whipping his MPs to vote against remaining in the customs union (irony filter gone again)
7) 2 years of complete inactivity, sat idley watching, including using PMQ's used for asking the pressing questions of the day about bus timetables while avoiding brexit completely
8) Ignoring both his MP's and his fabled 'membership' because thats what he does when the don't agree with him. Democracy, my arse!
9) The interview last week where he once again says that he's not going to support a second referendum '... AND IF THERE WAS ONE, I DON'T KNOW HOW I'D VOTE'
I can see your confusion. Its all pretty ambiguous stuff
He's a Brexiteer. Deal with it.
The RH member for the 18th century suits the piece of excrement in my view 🙂
Anyway - hopefully he is enjoying this headline: https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-setback-proof-erg-emperor-jacob-rees-mogg-has-no-clothes-11558745
Mogg is now reduced to arguing that the tories don't want May to lead them into next GE so they need to move now because he can't get his 48 letters... What a ****.
Rees Mogg is my Aunts MP. she thinks the sun shines out of his fundament and wants him as PM as does my cousin!
So to move on:
May loses the attempt to stop the EU court hearing the case whether or not the UK can unilaterally rescind A50. Lost in court, lost on appeal in Scotland and now lost in the UK supreme court. Why are they fighting this so hard? Afraid they will lose in the EU court? Afraid of another lie being exposed?
Also Scots tory MPS - won seats in part on their appeal to coastal communities over fishing rights being brought back to Holyrood. Its now pretty clear that they will remain with the EU - thats one of the quid pro quo for May getting such a good exit deal. Even if they only remain in the EU ( the fishing rights) during transition they will still be retained by Westminster. Will the scottish tories vote against Mays deal as to accept it means breaking promises made that won them votes? If they do so they will loose all these seats again.
Also on the scottish tories - they stood up and said the union must not be threatened by the deal. Now Raab and other ex ministers state that the deal does threaten the union - after all if NI gets special status why not Scotland?
Mundell said he would resign - will he?
Although to some extent this is a sideshow and I doubt the scots tories will vote against the deal accepting it is seriously dangerous to their political careers as they would have broken two major pledges which won them a lot of votes. I realy think if they don't get control of fishing rights under scottish control they will lose most if not all of those seats.
Its going to be interesting which way they jump and what Davidson will say.
He’s a Brexiteer. Deal with it.
The sort of thing a Brexiter would say. You are a Brexiter, no good trying to hide it and claim you are not as I know you are. Last word on the matter.
Curses! Rumbled!
Mogg is MP for North-East Somerset, so looks like you’ll be avoiding Bath for a while.
Bath itself is, mostly, safe and currently Lib Dem. Although it is surrounded by his constituents.
Is it at all possible that Corbyn is right on brexit? I've asked myself this many times and don't have an answer. The rabidly anti-brexit side of me who thinks anyone who voted for it is a ignorant imbecile thinks he's got it terribly wrong and will pay for it by eventually alienating his young supporters and drifting back into mediocre obscurity. The other half however wonders if he touching on something that could propel him to power.
He's one of the few politicians who recognises brexit for what it is, which is a protest vote against the status quo and a desperate attempt at some form of fundamental change. No one else, be that May, Blair, Chukka Umunna, Vince Cable, George Osborne or any of the other centrist status quo supporters are offering to solve the problems which created brexit, they just offer the same tired 'like it or lump it' message to the people who are so pissed off.
Maybe Corbyn and McDonnell are way ahead of everyone else? There not much in that speech above to dislike or disagree with if you come from any sort of left-leaning or progressive outlook. It seems to me that he's the only politician acknowledging that we can't go on as before as otherwise we'll end up in a much worse position down the line.
France set to remove Carlos Ghosn from Renault after arrest
On Monday, Japanese prosecutors said Mr Ghosn had under-reported his income from running Nissan by 5bn yen ($44.4m; £34.5m) over five years.
Mr Ghosn is also chairman of both Nissan and Mitsubishi Motors and leads an alliance of the three carmakers.
No wonder this crook keeps threatening Brexit for his own gain.
What goes around come around ... 😀
Chewkw you is still funny.....
Realistically, here’s what happens.
the “deal” is terrible. It satisfies neither camp of remainers or leavers.
labour, snp, Lib Dem’s etc can safely vote it down in Parliament knowing they won’t be “the enemy of the people” given how unpopular the deal is to the leavers
then it’s cap in hand to the eu to call the whole thing off while we sort ourselves out politically. GE most likely, Tories out, labour in, we forget about the whole thing and life goes back to normal.
brexit simply can’t happen now without destroying the UK, both financially and in terms of the Union.
brexit simply can’t happen now without destroying the UK, both financially and in terms of the Union.
I see no problem in that even if it means total destruction of the finance and even the Union.
Sometimes it is better to start again as the the entire system is knackered ...
Destroy and create ... just like the universe.
Chewkw you is still funny…..
Yes, that bloke is a corporate crook. A crook. I mean how much does he earn and yet he wanted more !!! What a despicable being ...
chewkw you is still unable to recognise irony
I see no problem in that even if it means total destruction of the finance and even the Union.
Sadly this is the view of many. It may be better long term but in the short term (20-30 years) the UK is ****ed. Minor adjustments to a national economy take 10-15 years to shake out this is extreme
The other half however wonders if he touching on something that could propel him to power.
Let the country be destroyed and then re-build it as a socialist utopia fantasy. This has happened only once before and the country was a mess, talk about learning the wrong lessons from history.
The disaster capitalists will win this one.
Maybe Corbyn and McDonnell are way ahead of everyone else?
It seems to me that he’s the only politician acknowledging that we can’t go on as before as otherwise we’ll end up in a much worse position down the line.
Err… all politicans are proposing and seeking change, always. The only question to ask is, does Brexit enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family, your friends, your company, your region, your country, Europe, the world generally… if you can answer yes to a few of those, then you have little to fear from the Brexit those two are helping happen.
That speech seeks to conflate Brexit with unrelated and popular Labour policies.
There is a growing campaign theme that standing in the way of Brexit is standing in the way of other, admirable, Labour policies.
That seeking a referendum is somehow preventing a general election, preventing a Labour government.
I don't see it sticking.
Google Translate now does Leave speak. This was after Labour asked for my support and I declined.
does Brexit enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family
That’s the whole point. To me it doesn’t, but millions of people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum who have suffered from 40 years neoliberalism do. They may be wrong on Brexit but are right on the need for change. Corbyn is the only one offering it, and is the only one acknowledging that the Brexit vote was a cry for help from the people, rather than telling them to stop moaning and get on with it.
The only one? Nonsense. Most of his party see the 2016 Referendum as a call for change by many who voted Leave, but realise that Brexit isn't the change that is required, in fact it will exasperate nearly every problem that led to the protest vote element of the result.
Why was it dominated by older voters then, when their children are the ones suffering the generational drop in living standards?
Davis was in America last week, bragging about lining up sweet, post-brexit trade deals, trip paid for via Bannon/legatum ?
https://twitter.com/OwenPaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=19
Aaron Banks paid for Hoey to go on a trip to washington last year, why do you think the Brexiteers are so frantically trying to block a customs union deal?
https://twitter.com/alan_firth_/status/925894945206128640?s=19
brexit is the neoliberalists wet dream come true.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> </span>
Its all been pretty apparent from the off what they want. They've wrapped it up in all kinds of rhetoric and evasion to come out from actually saying it. They want to establish the UK as an economy in two distinct parts
1) A sweatshop economy where, once free of EU regulation, worker rights, environmental standards and all restriction on corporate power are swept away
2) A tax haven off the shores of Europe, undercutting everyone for corporation tax and then hoovering up dirty money to launder it through the totally deregulated City of London, and aid international tax evasion.
This will benefit the usual top couple of per cent, while the rest of us get well and truly bent over
does Brexit enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family?
That’s the whole point. To me it doesn’t, but millions of people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum who have suffered from 40 years neoliberalism do
But those people can't answer that question. Now if you slightly alter the question to "do you think Brexit will enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family"? then they can sensibly answer "Yes" because they have been led to believe that the EU is responsible for their situation, even though it isn't.
That’s the whole point. To me it doesn’t, but millions of people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum who have suffered from 40 years neoliberalism do. They may be wrong on Brexit but are right on the need for change. Corbyn is the only one offering it, and is the only one acknowledging that the Brexit vote was a cry for help from the people, rather than telling them to stop moaning and get on with it.
No.
We should just remind them that they no longer serve any utilitarian purpose to society.
They should make themselves useful or pack their bags and **** off, or shuffle off this mortal coil! We need border control at their wombs - coming into this world and taking my tax money, why should I pay for them to have kids, I won't stand for it!
🙂
Its all been pretty apparent from the off what they want. They’ve wrapped it up in all kinds of rhetoric and evasion to come out from actually saying it. They want to establish the UK as an economy in two distinct parts
1) A sweatshop economy where, once free of EU regulation, worker rights, environmental standards and all restriction on corporate power are swept away
2) A tax haven off the shores of Europe, undercutting everyone for corporation tax and then hoovering up dirty money to launder it through the totally deregulated City of London, and aid international tax evasion.
This will benefit the usual top couple of per cent, while the rest of us get well and truly bent over
I can't think of any other reasons why certain Brexiteers would be so keen to get us out as soon as possible, regardless of the cost to anyone else.
Comes into force mid-2019
Why was it dominated by older voters then
A couple of reasons. One is that even though they are relatively well off, they don't acknowledge that. I could give you loads of anecdotal evidence of elderly working class relatives who think they're poor and have been shat on or ignored by successive governments. Another is that even if they don't think they're poor, they have a general view of national decline. This includes everything from kids not respecting their elders, the NHS and public transport going to shit, and their grandkids being stuck in crappy insecure jobs. They also have much less attachment to Europe and 'foreigners' than the younger generation so don't see cutting ties as that big a deal. All they want is things to change. They know they have lost out over the past 40 years, and It's got very little to do with going back to the 1950s no matter how much remainers say it is.
Which of those will be addressed by Brexit? Which will be made worse?
Which of those will be addressed by Brexit? Which will be made worse?
I agree brexit won't make any of these better, at least not in it's current form, which is why I'm against it. That's not the point I'm making though. The point is that we ignore these people at our peril. Corbyn, for all his faults, seems to be attempting to address the complaints exercised through the brexit vote. Personally I think he's onto a loser with that, but at least he's not simply offering more of the same, or worse, as May currently is right now.
The more I think about it brexit is basically a London vs the regions problem. If you tell a working class bloke from Whitehaven that we can't leave with no deal because it will plunge the country into a massive recession, his response will be so what? As far as he's concerned we already are in a massive recession and the people who will suffer from the impact will be rich Londoners, who will get a taste of what people like him have had to deal with over the past 30 years.
brexit is the neoliberalists wet dream come true
I think this is partially back to front. And a huge contradiction.
Why would you be constantly punting the economic disaster of brexit if it was a neolibraists wet dream? If it's a disaster it's hardly going to benefit business is it?
"**** business"
Her Majesty's Government
They know they have lost out over the past 40 years,
Hah!
Yes, stable jobs, been part of a top 10 economy all their lives, enjoyed the benefits of lots of state support but consistently voted Tory because of migrants and benefits cheats taking their tax money and then whine when the NHS goes to shit.#
If this country suffered even a tenth of what developing worlders have to cope with, there would be mas suicides.
) A sweatshop economy where, once free of EU regulation, worker rights, environmental standards and all restriction on corporate power are swept away
2) A tax haven off the shores of Europe, undercutting everyone for corporation tax and then hoovering up dirty money to launder it through the totally deregulated City of London, and aid international tax evasion.
We actually just need a labour government to shore this up. Irrespective of the EU.
If it’s a disaster it’s hardly going to benefit business is it?
Depends what you call 'business'. If you've got a car plant in Sunderland I'm sure its about to become a nightmare, all that hassle with your supply chains and everything. Yu'll probably just sack it and move the plant to Poland, making your Sunderland workforce unemployed
If you've a consultancy in the city advising Foreign 'Businesses' on investment opportunities and 'Tax Efficiency' I'm sure you'll be rubbing your hands with glee at the forthcoming deregulation bonanza and the subsequent tsunami of dirty money flooding in
Of those two options, who's interests do you think the interests of Rees-Mogg and his chums are more closely aligned?
Go on... hazard a guess...?
If it’s a disaster it’s hardly going to benefit business is it?
Depends what you call ‘business’. If you’ve got a car plant in Sunderland I’m sure its about to become a nightmare, all that hassle with your supply chains and everything. Yu’ll probably just sack it and move the plant to Poland, making your Sunderland workforce unemployed
If you’ve a consultancy in the city advising Foreign ‘Businesses’ on investment opportunities and ‘Tax Efficiency’ I’m sure you’ll be rubbing your hands with glee at the forthcoming deregulation bonanza and the subsequent tsunami of dirty money flooding in
Of those two options, who’s interests do you think the interests of Rees-Mogg and his chums are more closely aligned?
Go on… hazard a guess…?
This.
Our problem was not the EU or migrants. Our problem, is that culturally we are to used to having it good. Our economy was built on plunder and trade in spices, tea, opium etc - industry was and has always been viewed by the PPE lot as side effect of this, heavy industry was there to support empire.
We the British are thieves, our elites understanding of economics is that of a thief whilst our lower classes are just used to having to ride on the back of wealth generated by the barrel of a gun.
America, Japan and China were or are being transformed by huge investments in science and engineering. Something that we the British, do not seem to appreciate. The only people in Britain who get this, are a handful of enlightened individuals and millennials.
"I think people in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove
I think it's wrapped up in classism in the UK. Intellectualism is associated with elitism. It's seen as snobbish and arrogant to be clever.
But elites in the UK have used anti-intellectualism to their advantage. They can defend the status quo by saying e.g. 'those complex ideas from the continent, they're not British. We use a common-sense approach. We speak plainly. That's what makes the UK different. We call a spade a spade and don't need theory.'
So I think it's something that was ever present in the working uneducated classes - a suspicion that those with education would use their knowledge against those less fortunate, but that suspicion has been twisted and played against them.
Take a look at the arguments made in the AV vote campaign in the UK. The No vote relied on anti-intellectualism - 'the counting system is too complex. The UK can't afford this. Don't you think the common sense approach is that a winner should get the prize?'
'University of life, mate' is the classic refrain a non-uni educated person will say to you. Formal education above a certain level is still viewed negatively by half the population. There's an obsession with just going ahead doing, rather than considering and planning. Sometimes this works - the UK is pretty good at new company start ups, but it also takes too many risks.
You mentioned football - Football is mostly a working class game (for the players) in the UK. If you looked at some other sports e.g. Rugby you'd see a different demographic.
You don't get that attitude towards being clever and doing well in Asia.
just been going through the Guardian Live blog comments re PMQs and note that May is making repeated reference to 'no Brexit at all'. A cause for optimism? This comment jumped out at me:
The tories have laid a trap for Labour. If it's a choice between May's deal or staying in. If Labour vote down May's deal we will stay in the EU which is what May probably wants. She can then turn it on Labour, 'it's not our fault brexit didn't happen, we are still in the EU because Labour voted it down'. That line could be used against labour for decades decimating their voter base in the North. A great concern.
Quite frankly, if that happens I might laugh myself into a coma.
If May does that, I will learn stone masonry and erect a 100 foot tall statue of her in the middle of Sunderland.
Of those two options, who’s interests do you think the interests of Rees-Mogg and his chums are more closely aligned?
Do you think it's more or less likely that the intentions of JRM, Fox, IDS and John Redwood will be defeated by a centrist 'more of the same' approach, or an approach which takes the opposite view to JRM et al and seeks to take advantage of brexit to address the problem of working class people in the regions? I'm pretty sure that if the centrists fudge, or even stop brexit that they will soon find themselves out of power.
Interesting. Five live are just reporting the latest polling shows a huge surge in support of Theresa May among voters. Apparently, seeing the alternative laid out so starkly in front of them.... Rees Mogg flanked by a row of gammons, suddenly didn't look that appealing. And a lot of Tory MP's thought better of being associated with that particular look...
Someone mentioned the Brits being thieves
No no idea how accurate or balance that is
Slaves. You've forgotten the slaves. The trade wasn't just spices and tea, but people.
As far as he’s concerned we already are in a massive recession and the people who will suffer from the impact will be rich Londoners, who will get a taste of what people like him have had to deal with over the past 30 years.
I'm sure there's a degree of truth in that.
Slaves. You’ve forgotten the slaves. The trade wasn’t just spices and tea, but people.
Yes, quite right. I’m sure the author will be most appreciative of a Brit informing them of such a glaring omission.
What's the next two words in the theme song?
Slaves. You’ve forgotten the slaves. The trade wasn’t just spices and tea, but people.
Also don't forget the brutal, ruthless oppression of the working classes back home, who were little better than slaves - expected to work endless hours and live in squalor to finance the opulent lifestyles of their 'betters'.
Surely no-one in the Tory party would want to see a return to that, would they?
Looking at those blokes sat either side of Moggy, they don't look like the kind of people who'd countenance that kind of thing at all?
Also don’t forget the brutal, ruthless oppression of the working classes back home, who were little better than slaves – expected to work endless hours and live in squalor to finance the opulent lifestyles of their ‘betters’.
You'd be surprised at how many of the working classes wouldn't mind going back to an almost plantation economy, and living on some rich toffs estate as servants. I've been offered a job in a brewery by some proper landed gentry types estate, it would have been fairly cushy, I don't think he even cares about turning a profit....just being able to tell his mates he has a brewery for the lolz and the pride of making local ****ing everything - but I'd know my place and would have been constantly reminded of that,
It's the middle classes they hate.
It all went downhill for them when they had to report to middle management types in industry, who they resent.
expected to work endless hours and live in squalor to finance the opulent lifestyles of their ‘betters’.
Untrained, uneducated useless people treated as disposable. Big surprise there!
Compare and contrast to Japan, highly trained, highly educated, worked like dogs but still have decent job security and whilst the jobs for life thing is dying, their companies still bend over backwards to prevent redundancies and lean much more heavily towards internal recruitment.
With 75 tories now having promised to vote it down, we are almost at the point at which corbyn couldn't whip it through if he tried - he hardly controls that many labour MPs.
Exactly dogbone! And thats with the employment rights conferred through EU legislation. What do you think this lot have got lined up once they're free of that?
A good article on our dystopian Brexit future from todays Guardian
An entire rotten political-corporate regime is crumbling away – and its replacement threatens to be even worse. It will be worse, specifically, for those parts of the country, like Llanelli and Plymouth, that voted leave as the ultimate kick against the pricks of a hollow economy and a deaf government.
That line could be used against labour for decades decimating their voter base in the North. A great concern.
I wouldnt rate the Maybot as being competent enough to come up with a trap deliberately (especially given her clear hatred of some parts of the EU system) although it is an accidental one from the word go.
The problem is the "moderates" in Labour are too frothing with hatred towards Corbyn to see the problem and just want him to sacrifice Labour to save the tories. Although then again they also probably see a political opportunity that if Labour got decimated after saving the tories then they would use it as an excuse to drag the party rightwards and help set up the next crisis.