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Which might be true, but the option is to remove universal suffrage.
No, it's not. What we need is to improve education to the point where people can spot bullshit when they see it. Politics, Philosophy, Economics and media studies all need to be on the curriculum. How the hell do you expect people do vote when they have no idea about this stuff?
JRM will be sitting in his stately pile counting the potential millions his Disaster Economics based investment company will be making out this F88K up, fuelled by his antics as an MP. He'll come out of this much wealthier whatever happens... total ****!
I think you'll find that it is largely PPE that got us into this mess, in the form of the Oxford degree course of that name.
Don't worry, labour are contributing to making moggy millions as well.
It's all very funny actually, the country has lost it's collective marbles.
JRM will be sitting in his stately pile counting the potential millions his Disaster Economics based investment company will be making…
His dad even wrote a book (or two) explaining how all this works.
the Liberal wing of the tory party hoves into view to save the pm
This is hysterical. Which of these political heavyweights would you want instead:
Odds on who is next leader of the Cons
Dominic Raab - 5/1
Sajid Javid - 11/2
Boris Johnson - 6/1
Michael Gove - 17/2
Jeremy Hunt - 17/2
Jacob Rees-Mogg - 17/2
David Davis - 17/2
So, I'm back from my ride. Has the Maybot resigned yet?
Why is a s second referendum too risky? Risky for whom?
Too risky for those who want to keep the status quo... Those who want to remain in the EU.
This needs to be taken right to the wire with a binary parliamentary vote on either 'cliff edge suicide' or remain.
It seems that's May's strategy. She's planned for this not to get through parliament.
A second refurndum could easily go either way, and even if remain won, it would keep the wound open for decades of political and economic turmoil..
Brexit needs to be stopped on technical grounds, on the basis it's not deliverable and it's not in the best interest of the country. A second advisory refurndum would only frustrate and draw out the enevitable.
What we need is to improve education to the point where people can spot bullshit when they see it.
With hidsight, it probably wasnt best idea to have the remain campaign headed by two hugely rich, entitled, overpriviledged arseholes, who the entire nation absolutely despised, basically telling the thick proles that they knew what was best for them?
A second advisory refurndum would only frustrate and draw out the enevitable.
Almost agree with that.
Except…
would keep the wound open for decades of political and economic turmoil..
Applies just as much, if not more, to all options other than another referendum. The betrayal narrative of this being called off without the public getting another (direct) say in the matter would be hellishly strong. Pressing ahead even if the public is clearly turning against leaving would also look like politicans ignoring the public.
it probably wasnt best idea to have the remain campaign headed by two hugely rich, entitled, overpriviledged arseholes
well it worked out for the leave campaign.
from the grauniads comments
Two years ago Britain walked out on a long marriage to the EU. The EU just didn’t understand Britain. Free at last Britain would hook up with younger fitter models around the world.
Yesterday Britain got shown into the new bedsit. On the bed was a box with lawyer’s bills, a maintenance agreement and an unfavourable custody arrangement.
raybanwomble
...It’s all very funny actually, the country has lost it’s collective marbles.
It's as funny as being on a sinking ship that has been kept on a strong and stable course into a iceberg because we have taken back control.
The poshos are getting into their lifeboats, but there's not enough for the rest of us, and some idiot is drilling holes in them.
Why is a s second referendum too risky? Risky for whom?
Depends how you ask the questions and the options you give. If you can split the "undecided" vote by offering a compromise then you potentially end up with a 3-way split, no clear majority for either side and we continue on ad-infinitum.
At the moment, the only realistic options to ask are:
push on with the Leave option, attempting to negotiate a deal and decide again in [x] time
call the whole thing off, retract article 50 and remain in the EU.
@ Dissonance
I think you might be a little out of tune on this statement
"Whilst she hasnt run away yet when you see all her comments it is aligning her view of brexit with the voters. Which, incidentally, then leaves her betraying democracy if she backs this one."
Im sorry but i just don't agree with that its pure conjecture
I think the original statement reflected trying to deliver on the democratic right of the electorate rather than the democratic powers of the elected
To do that you need to actually understand what the electorate want.
I think the vote was Leave/Remain rather than the 17 Million idiotic Brexits in peoples minds so would argue the government and by title the leader of that government May understood what the majority of the electorate wanted (regarding the Vote in question) and have tried to deliver it democratically.
I don't agree with the outcome like you, however I think the original statement we are discussing is a true reflection of the circumstances
It’s all very funny actually, the country has lost it’s collective marbles.
It's worst than that. Last night having listened to Tony Blair I found myself thinking he spoke a lot of sense and wasn't that bad after all.
A second refurndum could easily go either way
Not if there are three options on the ballot.
May understood what the majority of the electorate wanted
So why is everyone so unhappy?
Old dears in the green grocers just now having a rant. They were moaning about the deal saying it's worse than what we've got.
Then they started talking about how much fun the march was.
The UKIP green grocer had to smile and nod.
Tide is turning.
Gove still hedging his bets
Pressing ahead even if the public is clearly turning against leaving would also look like politicans ignoring the public.
I see where you're coming from, but it's a politicians job to act for the good of the country, not to blindly follow the results of advisory referendums.
And the polling on a second refurndum is still too close for it to a sensible idea IMO.
A second ref could still conceivably result in leave, and that would mean a defecto hard brexit. No one wants that apart from Jacob rich snob and people who sell tat on market stalls in Doncaster aparrently.
May may have actually played a blinder here if she an survive a no confidence vote..
Yes, we've been over this a lot, the vote was leave/remain, but the things that motivated that vote were nuanced. It's incredibly dishonest to claim that it was a vote for any brexit that can be put on the table, even when it totally contradicts what was promised or even what other brexiteers wanted. There's a reason all of the promised brexits were made up bullshit, the brexiteers knew that they couldn't sell any real brexit.
There was a very slender majority for some sort of brexit; nobody has ever voted for exactly this brexit, and we can be confident that the referendum was not in fact a majority for any specific brexit. Nothing illustrates this better than the squabbles ongoing in the brexit camp over what sort of brexit they want.
We're now in a weird place where brexiteers are opposing this "deal" because it's not brexitty enough and that's fine, but remainers are told off for opposing it because brexit is the will of the people.
If you had a vote for cake or no cake, and the cakes on offer were carrot cake and chocolate cake, well, you could be pretty confident that the cake voters would be happy. But this was more like a vote for chocolate cake and cattle cake, and while some people would be happy to eat either a lot will prefer not to.
As it turns out, nobody's getting the cake they asked for, but everyone's being told they have to eat the jobby cake because they voted for chocolate cake or carrot cake. And they'd damn well better enjoy it.
lol at Northy!
<div class="TweetAuthor js-inViewportScribingTarget" data-scribe="component:author">
<div class="TweetAuthor-nameScreenNameContainer"><span class="TweetAuthor-decoratedName"><span class="TweetAuthor-name Identity-name customisable-highlight" title="Rehman Chishti" data-scribe="element:name">Rehman Chishti seems to have the cheap stationary.</span></span><b class="u-hiddenVisually"></b></div>
</div>
It's probably been recycled by now
are they are getting brave now ? is chief whip losing control ?
Utterly agree with Northwinds analysis and excellent phrasing 🙂
Who do we want to replace May?
David Lammy has risen to the top of my list over the last two years.
A second ref could still conceivably result in leave, and that would mean a defecto hard brexit.
The campaigning would be different though. We'd know what would happen. Almost all the leavers I spoke to/read about were saying about all the great deals we'd get and how we'd have our cake and eat it, and that's now categorically shown to be false. Before it was all hypothetical, now it's real.
I called it first!
Buh bye May, don't let the door smack you on the way out.
We are now a knats chuff away from no deal and Corbyn as PM.
faaaaaaaaaarkkkkkkkkk
Corbyn as PM
Let's be honest, the only way this is going to end is with Laura Kuennsberg sticking an ice axe through May's brain while screaming YOU TOLD ME YOU WERE IN THE CENTRE GROUND! YOU PROMIIIIIIISED
A second referendum could easily go either way, and even if remain won, it would keep the wound open for decades of political and economic turmoil..
This really highlights the problem of the original question. There's more than two ways.
Now the electorate knows there's no £350m a week for the NHS, It won't be easy, it won't be a all win, no lose thing many will want to stay, or... will accept leaving if it's something close the 'Chequers' or ideally within the Single Market, a lot of people wanted that, financially remain the same, but "take control" of the boarders.
For JRM who's in it for a Quid, and for different reasons the "HARD BREXIT NOW" thickos whatever deal is struck with the EU won't be good enough, you can see it from the pre-vote rhetoric, they were happy to leave on pretty good terms with the EU, as long as we left, not now though. Nope, they won't be happy until there's a statue of Winston Churchill astride Britainia's Lion flicking a 'double bird' in Dover flicking a 'Double Bird' at Calais.
Equally, lots of Remainers were gutted at the result, but accepted it, at least in the early days when the talk was of striking a deal that most people in the UK could live with, not just Leavers, but the last 2 years has been so polarising that they will now only vote for remaining exactly as we were, and perhaps, joining the Euro, just to watch Farage turn purple and explode for a laugh.
So, really the vote should be:
1) Remain.
2) Leave under the deal agreed with the EU currently.
3) Walk from the EU, tell them to whistle for their divorce payment and go it alone (it'll be like The Walking Dead, only with more realistic Zombies).
I'd dare any Leaver to say they'd take that, because the only way that Leave won, is because they were able to offer anything and everything to everyone. Blue Passports, £350m for the NHS, etc etc etc.
We are now a knats chuff away from no deal and Corbyn as PM.faaaaaaaaaarkkkkkkkkk
I dunno actually, if she played an absolute blinder and just said "that's it, Article 50 is withdrawn, we're staying" she'd probably get a huge amount of public support which would make it difficult ousting her. The country would remain completely divided, there'd be a few very upset Hard Brexit tory MPs but it would take the wind out of everyone's sails including Corbyn. Then it'd jusyt be the next 10 years of repairing all the massive damage caused to society, the economy and to our global relationships.
It's about the only option she has if she wants to stay in power. Own up to it. Lay the blame squarely on Cameron< JRM and BoJo and blow any hopes they have of ever getting into power. Explain that there is no Brexit that can reasonably be delivered and we'll go back to the drawing board.
Romanian head waiter in my buildings bar is having flashbacks of Ceausesku after I told him Corbyn might get in now. I think he might need an ADR to revive him, he's gone totally catatonic.
at this point, given the option, i'd vote for the euro and schengen just to see Farage spontaneously combust.
The country would remain completely divided,
I dunno, Polls suggest most people wish we'd never started down this road, UKIP imploded long ago, and for all their blustering the HC Leavers within the Tories is still a small minority.
If I was May "It seems clear to me that we cannot break this stalemate either within my party, the Government or indeed the country as a whole. I will withdraw A50 with immediate effect before starting a long term consultation". give no time-scales, introduce some strict rules to government media lies and let things cool down over the next 5 years or so.
It’s about the only option she has if she wants to stay in power. Own up to it. Lay the blame squarely on Cameron< JRM and BoJo and blow any hopes they have of ever getting into power. Explain that there is no Brexit that can reasonably be delivered and we’ll go back to the drawing board.
Ballsy, I like it. It'll never happen mind you, but I like it.
Whilst i wish May will just say it isn't possible and at the same time arrange for Gove, Johnson et al to be arrested. She is up to her neck in this. Bradshaw? asked if she blocked an investigation into banks, she refused to answer.
And her history at the HO speaks for itself.
This is brilliant, I'm getting a few rounds of beers in and watching it the bar downstairs.
No deal will never happen, parliament will take back control at that point.
Council president Donald Tusk has appeared to express the hope that Brexit could still be averted."The EU is prepared for a final deal with the United Kingdom in November," he told a news conference in Brussels."We are also prepared for a no-deal scenario but of course we are best prepared for a no-Brexit scenario."
Could she just Revoke Article 50 on her own?
Yes.
Out of curiosity is there a choice for us to have a second vote and this time "Remain"? I wasn't sure about a statement I read saying that the "Withdrawl Deal cannot be re-opened"
From the BBC - A (very) senior EU official has suggested that the draft Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened, either by Westminster or the member states, saying: "We think we've exhausted our margin for manoeuvre."
It is not completely certain legally speaking that we can revoke A50, there is a court case due to decide this in a couple of weeks (that the govt has tried to block at hue public expense). I expect the court to agree but it's possible that it could decide otherwise. However in practice it's pretty clear that any revocation will be gladly accepted anyway. Top trolling from Tusk up there 🙂
I dunno, Polls suggest most people wish we’d never started down this road
Yes where's the OP 1365 pages and counting
Apparently, Brexiteers were phoning in to LBC this morning in tears.
Brexiteers in tears? What a bunch of pathetic morons. They believed all the lies and rubbish about how easy it would all be as the U.K. floated regally like The Swan Of Freedom into a broad sunlit upland scattered with magical unicorns and now it’s proved to be the complete nause-up that was predicted by the sensible among us, are looking for someone to blame. Anybody but themselves.
Here’s a list for the wall and blindfold:
Fox, Johnson B., Davies, Rees-Mogg and Hoey.
Keep the acid bath for Banks and Farage.
I’d buy that for a Euro.
Error what happens if there's a second ref
AND
We still decide to leave..
Will it just be a ok then
Or a mega cliff jump two fingers
"It is not completely certain legally speaking that we can revoke A50"
They had the guy that actually drafted article 50 on R4 the other day and he said it was designed in and that all it needed was a letter from the PM and unilateral agreement by the other 27 'which they would give by return of post' in his words.
.
<p lang="en" dir="ltr">Just to confirm I am available and willing to serve on a temporary basis as UK Brexit Secretary and have a plan ready to go that will totally fix all this 😘</p>— Alyn Smith MEP 🏴🇪🇺 (@AlynSmith) 15 November 2018<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js </span>
I agree there are good opinions for that winston but the ECJ is due to rule on the 27th and until they make their decision it would be unwise IMO to assert it as fact. Even if that's what the guy who wrote it intended. There's nothing actually written down about revoking the notification, it's a matter of what can be inferred from the absence of any specific process.
A (very) senior EU official has suggested that the draft Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened
Well, that's nonsense, it's a draft… there are even sections that say 20XX where the year hasn't yet been agreed/entered. It's not finished. They may well decide now that there's little point in finishing it mind you… and there isn't the time to wait for the UK to work on and agree ( ha, ha, ha ) significant changes to it.
A second ref could still conceivably result in leave, and that would mean a defecto hard brexit.
I suspect the chances of another vote giving the same result are almost zero. Okay so the very right wing anti-Europe folk (plus some very left wing anti-Europe folk) will still vote to leave, as will the uneducated proles who frankly shouldn't have the franchise anyway.
However many leave voters (not the ones vocal on the internet, radio etc) will have changed their minds, and most crucially of all, there will be a far larger turn out of young voters, who will largely vote remain. If the youngsters had bothered to vote last time we wouldn't be in this mess, and ironically they have most to lose from us leaving.
Here’s a list for the wall and blindfold:
Fox, Johnson B., Davies, Rees-Mogg and Hoey.
Plus that ghastly German woman.
Plus that ghastly German woman.
what did the queen do?
This 5pm presser. It's either 'I resign' or 'f you I'm fighting to the bitter end and bringing you all down with me you treacherous c*'. 🙂
I'm kind of hoping the latter. Corbyn must be s***ting himself. He never wanted to be PM.
(sorry that's a lot of stars!)
I'm off to a UK Finance Annual Dinner tonight .. Im guessing the chair will be furiously rewriting his speech after 5pm .. poor sod
Brexiteers in tears? What a bunch of pathetic morons.
‘Snowflakes’ is the accepted term, I believe.
I'm very confused about Raab.
I was under the impression he was our Brexit minister, so would have been very involved in the discussions.
Why is he acting so surprised and disappointed by the proposed deal? Its almost as though he's had zero involvement with it. If he has been involved, why didn't he resign before it was announced yesterday if he has so little belief in it.
Who is actually pulling the strings here? Who is actually leading the negotiations.
What an absolute disaster 😕
Could she just Revoke Article 50 on her own?
Our good friends in Scotland are pushing this through court to find out..
Remember when THM used to lecture us on how the grown ups were making sure everything would be ok😂😂😂
I've almost got admiration for the sheer bloody minded determination that May is displaying
Its utterly doomed to failure but still she soldiers on.
In her head she thinks she's re-enacting "The Charge of the Light Brigade" in reality its more like:
Remember when THM used to lecture us on how the grown ups were making sure they would be ok
fixed it...
Bill Cash has just been interviewed. Like the rest of these loons, the bloke is absolutely unhinged. They really are totally batshit crazy.
He was just banging on and on about regaining our sovereignty. It was repeatedly asked if it was worth massive economic damage to the country. He then just kept banging on and on about regaining our sovereignty.
Then he agreed that even the Bexiteers favourite economist has said that if the UK car industry went the same way as the coal industry, well that just means the economy will have to change. Then he returned to banging on and on about regaining our sovereignty
It must be nice to be in such a pviviledged position that you don't have to worry yourself with little things like the economy imploding, massive job losses, huge rises in prices etc etc
But thats what these Brexiteer ****s all have in common, isn't it? None of them have ever had to worry about how they're going to pay next months rent, have they?
They'll all just casually stroll away from the smoking rubble, completely unaffected
Oh and all is forgiven Bercow, the sardonic tone he used throughout the entire thing makes him one of the few politicians I can cope with.
Brexit isn’t a better future - it is a backward step into an imagined past.
c/o Michael Russell, the Scottish constitutional relations secretary.
Sums it all up for me.
However many leave voters (not the ones vocal on the internet, radio etc) will have changed their minds, and most crucially of all, there will be a far larger turn out of young voters, who will largely vote remain. If the youngsters had bothered to vote last time we wouldn’t be in this mess, and ironically they have most to lose from us leaving.
I dunno. I'd vote remain again.
My OH voted for May (well, for our cockwomble MP Redwood) in the GE as in her words "they've started Austerity and Brexit, so it's better to finish them". Dunno how common that might be which worries me.
26 mins to go...
Bets lads?
I'm for resignation.
Farage is being interviewed now. I'm presently fantasizing about doing truly unspeakable things to him
Nah my vote is "**** the lot of you I'm fighting on"
This is more rivetting than the world cup....
Another it’s gonna be “**** you all I’m staying “