Jam - the idea that since 85% of people voted Labour or Tory then 85% of people want hard Brexit is absoultely ludicrous. I don't want any Brexit. But I voted Labour. I am not alone in this.
Note to THM - austerity. The government might not have been practising austerity, but a government failure to get the economy to put money in people's pockets meant a lot of folk were experiencing austerity.
Deliberate or note, this is still confusing separate issues.
Plus you give far too much credit to the government - not least because they do not set wages outside the public sector. There is no doubt that there has been pressure on wages in REAL terms especially in the public sector. With inflation rising this pressure has increased since the Brexshit vote. But there are separate causes and effects here, not least our appalling productivity record.
So I agree with your comments in so far as they go on austerity but they need to look at effect as well as cause.
As above. Real wage growth is an issue - and a very real one for the BoE RIGHT NOW - so I would agree a proper assessment of causes and effects is needed. To link this directly to Brexit or frankly to any political party is a major stretch.
Sorry kimbers: redefining austerity as a catch all for a list iof gripes doesn't help anyone. Merely confuses the root issues.
not least our appalling productivity record.
something that brexshit will only exacerbate, the loss of the EIB and especialliy EU science funding means that our record low R&D investment will tumble further
cant see the government taking up the slack as the cut to the GDP from brexshit means they will have less cash to invest
the other productivity weakspot is our education system, despite a Gove edition KJ Bible for all schools we are still falling down the rankings in
english & maths and scince is about to take a big brexit hit..technical education- apprenticeships just dont exist salary free internships at best, university now leaves the poorest with 57k of debt!!
THM calling it a 'list of gripes' is exactly the problem- those gripes are destroying peoples life chances and theyve all been done in the name of austerity, theres also a neat feedback there into our low productivity
To link this directly to Brexit or frankly to any political party is a major stretch.
Not really IMO, voters tend to use whatever limited means they can. Look at local elections for this.
UK politics are basically dysfunctional and until FPTP is addressed you are always going to have large sections of the electorate disenfranchised. For many Brexit was as much about giving the establishment a kicking as it was about the EU.
One of the reasons there should never have been a referendum is because the question being answered by many was not the question that they were asked to answer.
@molgrips you voted for the manifesto (see the other thread where I quoted from it). Corbyn sacked the Shadow Cabinet members who voted to Umana's "non-Brexit" amendment. Labour put that in their manifesto to avoid losing seats, it shored up their vote. They get the message, enough of their voters want out for them to back Brexit.
Every Parliamentary vote there has been has carried the Brexit legislation. The importamt stuff has been carried by a landslide.
@mike Westminster may be empty frequently but the Prime Minister doesn't call it "Really Ridiculous" as a result. Indicative of pompous disdain Junker holds the elected chamber in.
Like millions of others I voted labour against Mays hard brexit
she asked for a mandate and a stronger hand in brexit
even the bitter oldie brexit true belivers deserted her
she got humiliated and had to run to the DUP, which is why shes a global laughing stock....
@molgrips you voted for the manifesto
You seem to be assuming (wrongly) that a vote for Labour was a vote for Brexit. The two are not linked.
I voted Labour as I want a Labour government over any of the other options. Labour are also the only party who have any chance of beating Conservatives so while I am a remainer I put voting for a party whose policies I agree with and have a chance of getting into power ahead of a wasted vote on a party whose policies I don't agree with but would be against brexit.
look everyone, jambs knows exactly why you voted how you did
fortunately Labour are sticking up for what I want
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/866057a4-60bf-11e7-91a7-502f7ee26895 ]Labour party calls on May to drop ECJ ‘red line’
Starmer seeks to retain access to key EU groups such as medicines agency[/url]
Jamba - please don't make yourself look foolish
THM - I don't think I disagree, except that government policy should affect the economy a little - and that affect wages.
Lets be clear the Referendum was legally advisory but both the main parties stood on a GE platform / manifesto accepting the result and both are committed to leaving the EU and frankly on the same basis (in my and many others opinion). The A50 trigger vote was passed my a landslide.
interesting use of the word trigger there jambs...
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well thats surprising considering the towering intellect of Leadsome
( I know someone who worked with her on a science advisory committee, he described her as the stupidest person in the room, at all times)
Mrs May had been planning to sack Mrs Leadsom, who pulled out of the leadership race a year ago after a controversial interview with The Times, had she won a landslide victory. [url= https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/andrea-leadsom-demanded-high-profile-role-as-price-of-demotion-9m90zhq3z ]Insiders said Mrs Leadsom had struggled to meet the complex challenge of preparing British farming and fishing for a future outside the EU.[/url]
even better she thought she could be home/foreign sec 😯
I think someones fallen for the trap of believing what she writes on her CV!
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@molgrips you voted for the manifesto
Parts of it, yes. Not all of it. We don't get to pick and choose though do we?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/04/golden-visa-immigration-deal-british-citizenship-home-office ]Jamba's favoured immigration policy?[/url]
Officially called a “Tier 1 investor” visa in the UK, the scheme gives individuals residency in exchange for investing £2m in UK bonds or shares through a bank, with applicants eligible for indefinite leave to remain, and even full citizenship, after five years. That is, unless they can stump up more cash: those offering £5m can settle after three years, and those with £10m after just two.
The fact is the labour statements on brexit are every bit as incoherent and impossible as the tories. It hardly matters what the manifesto says when it's not possible. If the manifestos promised us unicorns we still wouldn't get them. Brexit was dead from the start, eventually enough people will realise it's a zombie idea and let it lie.
@Del 85% of voters in the GE voted for parties that support "hard" Brexit namely no freedom of movement, thus no single market and no customs union membership.
again jambon, as you repeat your rhetoric, i repeat mine, it was about making sure maybot didn't get her mandate. she got ****ed. bent over. reduced to keeping the company of religious bigots. you keep on, but you'll be rearranging the deckchairs as the ship goes down. it's falling apart. in the words of THM, get over it.
Lots of reports on Newsnight about people related to Brexit doubting it will ever actually happen.
kerley - MemberYou seem to be assuming (wrongly) that a vote for Labour was a vote for Brexit.
Ah, you assume he thinks it's true
EU is doomed within this generation.
Good thing is that you will again witness history in the making but this time it is the collapse of EU.
Big time.
😆
edit: everyone that I have spoken to want to leave the pass and get on with leaving ... nobody wants to look back ... nobody. 😆
The A50 trigger vote was passed my a landslide.
Oh what bollox.
I just heard on the World Service that the EU and Japan are to conclude a trade deal on Thursday. It's been four years in the making.
chewkw - Member
[s]EU[/s] UK is doomed within this generation.
FTFY 😆
edit: everyone that I have spoken to want to leave the pass and get on with leaving ... nobody wants to look back ... nobody.
Judge a man by the company he keeps?
In contrast I've met very few who think it's either a good idea or want to.
Britain needs to negotiate a Brexit deal....
A what, Jeremy?
that puts our economy and living standards first. That won’tbe achieved by empty slogans and posturing.
Hear, hear...but wait a minute...
Instead we need a jobs-first Brexit that allows us to upgrade our economy for the 21st century.
Oh I see, not Brexshit at all and no empty slogans and posturing. Phew, for one moment........
A japan Eu free trade deal where the tariffs on importing cars will be lower than importing from the UK into the EU.
Why would you bother making cars in the UK?
It's closer. Distance costs in time and money.
Chewkw - not surprised no one you meet is willing to tell you they want to get shot of Brexit. You come across as a slightly mad religious zealot for Brexit (a Zombie Mayggot if you will). People will tell you exactly what you want to hear.
Try getting out of your bubble. If no one is telling you Brexit is bad, either they are lying to you about their opinions or you only meet an odd cross section of society.
igm - Member
It's closer. Distance costs in time and money.
There will be an equation though, the real question is if it's cheaper to scale up EU factories for RHD cars than manufacture in the UK. What a time to be putting trade barriers in place.
Cynical moment but if it's your UK made cars are undercutting your EU made ones whats to stop you moving all production to the EU. Uk gets no choice in buying more expensive cars.
Mike - agreed
Good thing is that you will again witness history in the making
Is this a euphemism for WW3 (which I know is what your twisted mind is craving)?
It's closer. Distance costs in time and money.
agreed, i was on the phone so didn't fancy writing a longer comment.
Does make you wonder how Renault-Nissan will look at Sunderland for example. Does it still make sense to have a plant outside the EU servicing the EU when there are tariffs in place.
Obviously means that the cost of Shimano bike parts will fall by 6% ish (5%ish tariff + 20% vat) although the sterling shift was greater. Leave the EU prices go up again. Another knock to the inflation rate? Obviously will cover many more areas but it was the first example that occurred to me
Obviously means that the cost of Shimano bike parts will fall
And that is one of the most common reasons I hear for people voting for Brexit.
It is very interesting how the tone of the popular press has changed post election. The previously rabidly pro-Brexit Telegraph has softened it's stance, as has the Murdoch owned Times which has printed opinion pieces suggesting that Brexit would be a disaster. It's abundantly clear that the political vision of Brexit differs markedly from that offered prior to the referendum (Daniel Hannan's famous statement that a leave vote would not entail leaving the single market is completely at odds with the party line post referendum). We're desperately short of staff for the NHS, the economy appears moribund, stricken with poor productivity and lagging behind our European counterparts who've been returned to strong growth. Even Greece is now in surplus.
The hard right of the Conservatives wanted hard Brexit for a number of reasons, not least of which would have been deregulation across the board and the idea that if you apply sufficiently large shock to a stagnant economy, the resulting damage sparks a strong recovery. They'd have traded the economic shock theory for influence of EU regulations - which we'll still have to abide by if we wish to trade with the EU. In many ways, the soft-Brexit approach is the worst of all worlds for the hard right, but it's beginning to dawn on them that they face a struggle to get the required legislation through a hostile parliament and House of Lords and that popular support for leaving the EU appears to be on the wane - no-one wants to be made poorer and less secure in their jobs as a result.
It may be coincidental that a large sum of money given to the Vote Leave campaign was routed via the DUP and originated in Saudi Arabia, meanwhile Theresa May is sitting on a potentially explosive report into Saudi funding of extremism in the UK. [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-foreign-terror-funding-report-uk-extremists-saudi-arabia-isis-security-intelligence-a7822121.html ]The Independent[/url]
Does make you wonder how Renault-Nissan will look at Sunderland for example. Does it still make sense to have a plant outside the EU servicing the EU when there are tariffs in place.
I meet with decision makers from Nissan every few weeks. They're all Paris based. Draw whatever conclusions you want.
telegraph havent just softened their stance
they must be crapping it as theyare now doing complete 180s!
I meet with decision makers from Nissan every few weeks. They're all Paris based. Draw whatever conclusions you want.
Better cuisine?
Better jumpers?
Better jumpers?
I'll have you know the Romans thought very highly of the birrus britannicus,
A japan Eu free trade deal where the tariffs on importing cars will be lower than importing from the UK into the EU.
But, but... We'll negotiate a World Class deal that's red white and blue. Or something. Won't we?
Well, red and white
This just in:
Rupert Myers, political editor at the Telegraph has tweeted that Brexit is a "shit idea".
He further tweeted: "I'd love a low tax, small state, global Britain, but I don't want to get there by lying to people & tanking the economy".
[Correction] He's a political correspondent at the Telegraph and GQ, not Political Editor.
I meet with decision makers from Nissan every few weeks. They're all Paris based. Draw whatever conclusions you want.
Boss's family live there?
Our pet Leave-liars told me Turkey was about to join and flood this wonderful island with brown Muslim immigrants.
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And yet the EU parliament has voted to suspend accession talks today.
It's like all their lies are backfiring isn't it? 🙁
The Eurozone implosion starts Monday though, right?
I meet with decision makers from Nissan every few weeks. They're all Paris based. Draw whatever conclusions you want.
Jamby runs nissan?
Telegraph article is unbelievable. It's that twunt who convinced my naive tory parents to vote leave. Nice one, press
How long till the Telegraph starts to really campaign for remain?????
Like millions of others I voted labour against Mays hard brexit
@kimbers there is in reality pretty much zero difference between Labour and Tories on Brexit. May / Tories have been straight with people and have said no deal is better than a bad deal, thays obviously true. Sir Kir Starmer has a ludicrous position that he would get tariff free access to THE single market without freedom od movement. The EU have been clear that's not possible. A Labour government would deliver much fhe same Brexit as Toires in the best case and a totally appalling deal in the worst case (eg higher budget contributions and renege on their no freedom of movement commitment)
In order to win seats in the North Labour committed fully to Brexit.
