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They’ll be getting it back out again soon to join the rest of them on the railways of the North West.
^^
What a sight though.
Vintage rolling stock with Spitfires barrel rolling overhead on their way to our aircraft carrier. Singular.
Makes you feel proud don't it?
Don't you yearn for the days when all we had to complain about was shitty rolling stock?
So Gove is backing May now apparently, what a total shit head he is. Flip flops more than a freshly landed fish.
I suspect that they'll all roll over, with just Johnson (Borris) clinging on to his principles 😜
So what's everyone's predictions now on an outcome?
same as it has always been, a fudge that means nobody is happy and we are worse off than we were before. With a 50/50 split not sure there can be any other outcome.
Yeh what Kerley said.
Potentially setting us us on the path to closer reintegration or further seperation depending on how the electorate is controlled.
It was always going to result in the UK losing ground. Not necessarily because we can’t make a success of it, at least in the long term. But more because we had 17 million versions of Brexit being voted for. And the sheer stupidity of the Leave campaign which never took responsibility for a post referendum plan on how to implement “the people’s will” That an an apparent clear lack of talent at Government level.
An attitude best seen with that ****er Boris who is OK to screw an entire nation over for personal political gain.
rone
So what’s everyone’s predictions now on an outcome?
The Dis-united Kingdom?
A wet dream for all the UK's traditional rivals/enemies, and our govt did it to itself.
Schadenfreude will be strong in the ex-colonies who will now have a whip hand in WTO negotiations.
I was thinking more ...will it be revolt or toe the line?
Nige has already been on tv I see saying how his amazing idea has been wrecked by others.
Oh Nige........
DUP leader on way to Westminster to congratulate May so the BBC says?
I assume that's what the NI version of a Glaswegian Kiss is?? 😁
NI version of a Glaswegian Kiss
So a political knee capping.
I struggle to see this agreement surviving daylight.
Voted down...
Not enough time to negotiate again...
There is no better deal...
No election...
Tory leadership battle...
David Davis wins...
Off the cliff we go...
So Gove is backing May now apparently
Yeah right. What's he holding in that hand behind his back?
I reckon there'll be more resignations coming.
Would Davis want it? We've seen how workshy he is when given an actual proper job to do.
Davis sees himself as the one to lead the Brexiteers to the promised land. He will step down as soon as the promised land (bottom of the cliff) is reached.
He is idle but six months as PM gets him a PM pension at £100k and a shit book deal.
Just to make sue the deal is absolutely and irretrievably sunk, this has just been leaked (BBC has details)
A leaked diplomatic note appears to show the EU's deputy chief negotiator saying Brussels would "retain all the controls" over the UK if this agreement goes through.
In the note, seen by the Times newspaper, Sabine Weyand said: "We should be in the best negotiation position for the future relationship.
"This requires the customs union as the basis of the future relationship.
"They must align their rules but the EU will retain all the controls. "They apply the same rules.
"UK wants a lot more from future relationship, so EU retains its leverage."
Damn, shame we haven't got negotiators like that working for us.lol
Pours benzin on the fire that doesn't it?
Yep, Nige just passed out and started twitching I reckon.
That settles it then...
Just heard a rep from the N.I. Godbothering Party confirming that they will vote against the deal because, in their view, “No deal is better than a ‘bad’ deal”.
Actually, stick an orange wig on that, it's a pretty fair approximation.
I'm not saying it's a cure all or anything but a second ref has got to be better than 50 % chance to take place now?
I'm not calling the vote mind, I'm still stunned at the stupidity of 17 million from the last one to rule out another cluster ****.....
Much as I'm loath to quote the bell-end who got into this shambles in the first place, his description of the Brexiteers some years ago was bang on:
"People who won't take yes for an answer"
I’m not calling the vote mind, I’m still stunned at the stupidity of 17 million from the last one to rule out another cluster
agreed
John curtice saying its only been a small swing to remain nationally
that 17m will still be swallowing the same old nonsense from the same conmen/women
if we did have a 2nd ref & remain won would also be a resyrgence in UKIP, especially at euro elections, where they could, ironically, damage the UK further with their idiotic politics...
sigh..........
A fair few of them will have died in the meantime, of course. But still I wouldn't trust the electorate to give a sensible answer this time when they failed so dismally last time.
Leave would win a new ref with an increased majority.
I now understand for many many people this has nothing to do with economic well being, its "war" fever.
Lots of remainers have been convinced by the press and others that this is a patriotic crusade.
I have said multiple times that lessons have to be learnt and a fudged deal will always be a "betrayal" of the brexiteers.
People are stupid, ill informed, poorly educated, easily led and in respect to how our economy works dont know their arse from their elbow. This is a simple fact. Another ref will just allow them to tell us all to **** off again.
They need to suffer the consequences of their actions and before you all get on your high horse about some folk (me) being well padded, i have 4 kids aged 20 to 27 so we will all take a hit.
courtesy of @davidallengreen........
David Davis and Brexit
A Tragedy in Five Parts.
"The first calling point of the UK's negotiator immediately after #Brexit will not be Brussels, it will be Berlin, to strike a deal"
May 2018
"Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU"
July 2016.
"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."
October 2016.
"We can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019."
January 2017.
"This is the moment of truth. This is the fork in the road. Do we pursue a future as an independent nation or accept EU domination, imprisonment in the customs union and 2nd class status. Cabinet and all Conservative MPs should stand up, be counted and say no to this capitulation."
Nov 2018
Yeah let's bow down to the WTO instead and gleefully accept whatever price rises they foist on us.
Surrendering to the ****ing Swiss , Churchill and Thatcher must be spinning in their graves.
Gammon mode off.
Are we going to have a game of resignation Bingo then? See who goes as this whole shitshow unravels today?
I'm going for Gove, for definate!
That back-sliding little shit will have only one thought on scheming little mind today...
His leadership bid
And he's so self-serving that if he manages to trigger bringing May down and causing absolute chaos at the most inopportune moment imaginabele, well... whatevs!
can't see michael "norway for now" gove sticking his head above the parapet !
same as it has always been, a fudge that means nobody is happy and we are worse off than we were before
Agreed. And because the big parties are pretending this isn't the case, voters of all persuasions are going to be utterly dismayed at the gap between political rhetoric and what will unfold over the next five years. I still think the current blatent gamble that the Tories will be seen as solely to blame for this will backfire in Labour's face some how, big time. If nothing more, Labour won't be coming back in Scotland any time soon (so no majority government in UK parliament for a generation). If there was another real alternative to the Conservatives in England and Wales they'd be screwed down here as well. The directly elected Labour mayors calling for a referendum, and clearly ready to campaign to keep EU membership, is telling.
they are such a spineless bunch of cretins
They need to suffer the consequences of their actions
So the rest of us have to? No thanks.
I’m going for Gove, for definate!
It's whether it's going to be a House of Cards isn't it.
They need to suffer the consequences of their actions and before you all get on your high horse about some folk (me) being well padded, i have 4 kids aged 20 to 27 so we will all take a hit.
I've been there a while actually. I completely understand.
I heard a policeman saying today that they were getting ready for unrest - yeah what with, three coppers?
So the rest of us have to? No thanks.
Someone is always going to suffer though. And people will look after their own interests. That cuts both ways.
James O'Brien is on extra smug mode this morning.
he's a shit for sure but some class trolling from osborne
Edit: 
bloody crap forum!
Are we going to have a game of resignation Bingo then? See who goes as this whole shitshow unravels today?
Why not pop down the bookies and make it interesting, Binners?
"Bookmakers Coral have Penny Mordaunt as the favourite to be the next cabinet minister to resign from government."
Mordaunt has been making lots of Trumpian noises in the last week, so easily the new favourite to jump and get ready for a leadership battle (ignoring that everyone is surprised that Gove and Fox are still in there).
I think I will have a punt on that Molls. EDIT: I've had a few quid each on Penny Mordaunt, Esther McVey and Gove being gone this afternoon
I still think the current blatent gamble that the Tories will be seen as solely to blame for this will backfire in Labour’s face some how, big time.
Yip. Kier Starmer sees this. Jeremy is still living his socilaist Brexit fantacy-world though, where he's swept to power to establish his Socialist Utopia in the wake of this shitshow.
Absolutely delusional! Anyone with anything between their ears sees the spineless, incomprehensible, totally contradictory aproach of Corbyns Labour as equally as complicit in delivering Brexit as the Tory car crash.
I know far more (now former) labour voters who, the same as me, have watched in horror him whip the article 50 vote through, then sit back and do absolutely nothing to oppose this madness.
If I was living in Scotland then the SNP would be getting my vote every time. Unfortunately us poor mugs down here only have the choice of whether we want our Brexit shit sandwich on brown or white bread. Tory on Labour are two cheeks of the same arse over Brexit
If I was living in Scotland then the SNP would be getting my vote every time.
Same here. Whenever they do those blind "state your policy preferences" polls, it always makes me closest to SNP policies. Shame that as I'm south of the border I really want their main policy aim to fail! The UK without Scotland is not something I even want to think about now (selfishly). I could have seen it working out (for us down here) with us all being EU member states (just as on the isle of Ireland now), but after we Leave… it could be hellish.
Well the 1-2-1s are out of the way. I wonder how they all got on. Cabinet meeting at 2pm and PMQs just started. Pull up a chair get the kettle on open the biscuits.
If you could choose between actual socialist utopia outside the EU, and neoliberal toryism inside it, which would you go for?
Different versions of mixed ecomony possible inside and out.
Molls - to me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.
I truly believe this is what he thinks is going to happen. That this is 'The Plan'. Hence his relaxed attitude to Brexit. He's loving this! A hard/no deal Berxit is all his dreams come true.
But if it pans out like that, imagine how fast businesses will run for the exits? We'll be a third world country within 5 years. We'd make Greece's troubles since the Euro-crisis look like an economic success story in comparison.
Doesn't sound much like any type of Utopia really, does it?
If you could choose between actual socialist utopia outside the EU
This for sure as you described it as a utopia!
Well since neither a socialist nor capitalist utopia can exist, both being flawed systems, we need to keep muddling along with compromise.
Meanwhile Ken Clarke in PMQs:
He says "we must re-establish parliamentary sovereignty" and wishes the PM well in achieving a majority for "some course of action in future which is in the national interest".
Molls – to me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.
Worse than a no deal brexit with Boris or Mogg as pm? Still cant see Corbyn winning an election.
Do we know what we are debating yet?
Dammit Molgrips! That's the sort of hard moral question that is ruining this place!
Would a true socialist utopia _need_ external trading partners? Could that even exist in the absence of trade deals where other parties are out for personal gain?
The only reason Theresa May isn't long gone is that most people can see that either a Corbyn government or a Tory one lead by some Hard Right headbanger, post-brexit, would be an absolutely unimaginable catastrophe
She's the least worst option
Just have a think about that for a minute. Thats how totally ****ed we now are!!
"most people" have absolutely no say in the length of Mays tenure.
Yes but most Tory MPs have absolutely no wish to see the Boris or Rees Mogg premiership that their batty old membership would deliver. Just as most labour MPs don't want the' leadership' that their Momentum 6th formers have delivered them
The only reason Theresa May isn’t long gone is that most people can see that either a Corbyn government or a Tory one lead by some Hard Right headbanger, post-brexit, would be an absolutely unimaginable catastrophe
I'm not so sure, there's an inertia involved. Last G.E wasn't that long ago - it largely depends on what happens in the next couple of months I would say.
Do we know what we are debating yet?
What Zippy said - what does tickle me is so many people on here reacting to media speculation regarding the deal. Opposition politicians calling it a bad deal without even seeing or having time to reflect and put a considered opinion together on it .. Just shows that unchecked media rhetoric appeals to both sides or who's argument it suits and I'm saddened by that.
It was obvious before and during the folly of negotiation that the deal on offer wouldn't be better than the one we had, but it will be better than No deal .. Id like to see it and review it carefully of course but personally would like to see us all move towards an end to this and try to heal some of the divisions within the country . once its done we can all get on with what we have . don't believe in a peoples vote on it either as it will further divide and weaken the country.
Shoot me down if you wish but i've had enough uncertainty
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It was obvious before and during the folly of negotiation that the deal on offer wouldn’t be better than the one we had
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would like to see us all move towards an end to this and try to heal some of the divisions within the country
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I cant see how any divisions will be healed as we are taking a route that damages the country......
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You seem to be living in a staggering, unicorn filled alternate reality where you believe Brexiters can be reconciled with.
Asking reasonable behaviour of the unreasonable is an exercise in futility, with a sprinkling of fairy dust insanity.
You’ll end up rationalising the behaviour of nutters. You give them an inch and they go for a land grab of a country.
Have a look at some European history.
Most of it, in fact.
My question was purely hypothetical. Let me rephrase, since it's ambiguous depending on your interpretation of 'utopia'.
Would you rather have a liberal left wing social democracy, along the lines of the post-war Labour govt with lots of nationalisation and a social agenda but modernised (since I think that's what Corbs would like) OR the status quo within the EU.
And yes, I know socialism and the EU can co-exist, I'm talking about what you would like to see starting where we are e.g. requiring lots of borrowing to renationalise. And I'm not talking about Corbyn specifically, but I guess I am talking about a Corbynite style of socialism.
This new forums crap !!
My view is on the whole is the majority of people will have little choice but to get on with it and make the best of what happens , That will go some way to healing divisions just because there is no other option than to get on with it.
Sure there will remain some bad sentiment/resentment through individuals for some time to come but Time really is a great healer and I think that very few want to lie on our deathbed and say/think.. see I told you you were wrong about Brexit whatever side they were on.
Just my 2p's worth
"along the lines of the post-war Labour govt "
What you're suggesting never existed.
We were stony broke. It wasn't a time of socialist unicorns and honey. It was, in fact a bit S41t.
Nationalisation was often to shore up badly run industries (run by private companies,mind).
Your missing off the "Empire" bit, as well. It was reducing in size but was still there.
I'll back your socialist utopia if you show me a future, not a past that never existed. I promise.
It won't heal anything.
Look back to 1975, the first referendum - massive "remain" vote. Did the brexiters "get on with it?" Did they chuff.
I applaud your motivation but query the pragmatism.
try to heal some of the divisions within the country
How the hell are you going to do that?
If no-deal trashes the economy, then people will suffer, and suffering people will need people to blame - the EU, the Tories, each other, whatever.
If any deal is perceived as BINO, and we still slide economically, people will suffer and blame the EU or the Tories or each other.
If we remain or we BINO and do ok economically, brexiteers will be bitter and angry just the same.
We cannot simply heal these divisions with a decision on Brexit. The only way is to make people feel secure, happy and prosperous. Neoliberalism cannot do that, ever - competition is an intrinsic aspect of it, and whenever there's competition there are losers. Only social democracy can begin to improve life for everyone and bring security to the majority. Only then will progress be made.
We were stony broke. It wasn’t a time of socialist unicorns and honey. It was, in fact a bit S41t.
Of course I know this. Not least because we'd just had a massive war. I'm talking about what it *aimed* to do.
@Barron
Not old enough nor qualified enough on the subject matter to compare or pass a view on the 75 ref i'm afraid
Very interested in hearing your views on how you would play the current cards though as i think i have a enough knowledge to debate that.
Forgive me if detailed in the thread previously but its getting rather big now !
I think this thread is Singletrack’s attempt at “deep learning” - gather enough guff about Brexit and the thread will spontaneously design a Fat Bike to take us to the sunny uplands of in Europe/out Europe harmony.
I don’t think the divisions can be healed but the issues that caused them mitigated – fair distribution of wealth (the end of the “wealth creators” myth), a home people can afford to live in and know they will die in, less cack infrastructure for everyone not in SE)…
All aspirations of Corbyn; but the corn would be cut down before it ripens.
How about if Corbyn does a Volte-face (IMHO) and says:
“Labour’s keeping Britain in Europe. At the heart of Europe. We’re going to turn the politics of the continent a red colour and drive the European bus around the world with Britain in control; Germany paying for the petrol. No VW engines.”
I’d buy a dog and call it Engels, change my ringtone to the Internationale and be first in line to put a cross next to the red wizard’s name.
The populist parties of Europe have some (quasi) left leaning economic aspirations – end to austerity – more interventional help, socialist local governance, etc – sure they are nationalist, too – a sort of national socialism (joke) but a consensus builder might win the day.
With a continent of similar ideas, it reduces the chance that one country is picked off and made “an example of” by Global Corp. and Global Finance Brothers.
Molls - the main difference was that in the immediate aftermath of WW2 most commercial concerns didn't have the option of just upping sticks and relocating to France, Germany or Singapore. They can now. As we'll no doubt see over the next few years, whichever gang of numpties win the next election.
One thing the last 2 years has so graphically illustrated more than anything is the absolute rank incompetence, ignorance and economic illiteracy of our entire political class, of both colours. Idiots, the lot of them
Just as most labour MPs don’t want the’ leadership’ that their Momentum 6th formers have delivered them
Give it a rest, would you? We all know you don't like Corbyn, but your continual name-calling of his supporters is tedious. As I recall, you seemed to dislike it when I reminded you that you had done jack-all to oppose his election.
Ok Comrade.
Want to run us through your opinions on my assertion about what Corbyn really wants. I'll repeat it for you. Genuinelly interested in what a true believer thinks?
To me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.
I truly believe this is what he thinks is going to happen. That this is ‘The Plan’. Hence his relaxed attitude to Brexit. He’s loving this! A hard/no deal Berxit is all his dreams come true.
But if it pans out like that, imagine how fast businesses will run for the exits? We’ll be a third world country within 5 years. We’d make Greece’s troubles since the Euro-crisis look like an economic success story in comparison.
Doesn’t sound much like any type of Utopia really, does it?
Ok Comrade.
Want to run us through your opinions on my assertion about what Corbyn really wants. I’ll repeat it for you. Genuinelly interested in what a true believer thinks?
Why don't you ask one?
Torygraph saying McVey & Morduant to resign
So lets get this straight - it sounds like the deal at the moment is still a loose membership of the EU, ie having to abide by the rules, but importantly having zero say in them.
Or no deal.
Well done. That's really shown them...
The Labour party I do feel a bit sorry for, they are inbetween a rock & a hard place, a lot of remainers seem to forget that the vote wasn't Tory or Labour, so if they make too much noise about supporting remain then half their voters will desert them, meanwhile they just sit & watch the Tory party implode.
Not sure what I would do in Jeremy's shoes...
Torygraph saying McVey & Morduant to resign
Well at least if they do, instigating our descent into god-only-knows-what I'll have made a few quid out of it. How very Tory of me. Odds were 5/1 and 4/1 respectively. Gove is at 13/1 so I could do with him doing the deceent thing too.
The country will miss having such principled intellectual heavyweights in governemnt.
Interestingly, I've just had a look and the odds of May going before the end of the day are down to 10/1.
Gove will do what Lady Macbeth (Sarah Vine) tells him to
I'd like to think I would speak the truth. Might lose my job but at least would be able to sleep at night knowing I'd tried.
I do appreciate the alternative argument, that there's not much point having principles if you're not in power. Problem is, this way round he's been enabling the tories.
Problem is, this way round he’s been enabling the tories.
Yup - it really does need someone to say here are the cold facts, if we carry on with the half arsed poorly implemented Brexit then it's going to ruin us, shall we stop the madness?
It really pisses me off that those responsible will come out the other side one way or the other still smiling & probably a darn sight richer while the normal person in the street is left to suffer. Asshats the lot of them.
Ok Comrade.
So your response to a comment about name calling is to double down on the name calling.
Thats special.