Forum menu
Can I just ask, all those Blair haters and Corbynistas , what do you think Alastair Campbell would be doing with this Tory dissaray?
Dont know. He worked well with the press since Blair jumped to the right wing presses every whim.
Not dissimilar to Cameron after him.
However, and its a rather big however, that only works so long as you can jump to their whim. Did you notice how Cameron's claimed skills at press management vanished as soon as the Brexit campaign started and he was in conflict with the majority of the right wing press?
That is also leaving aside your continuing rather simplistic approach which skips past the fact Labour has the same tensions around Brexit as the tories do with the added bonus it has the "moderate" extremists waiting for the opportunity to launch attacks on the leadership and drag Labour rightwards.
not being a member and not getting involved is giving up
Not taking part doesn’t help you, that is the point
Labour members tried, yet again, to get a second referendum as Labour policy. And what happened? They were given a vote on not ruling it out… which means little… and since then, the leader has said that Brexit CAN NOT BE STOPPED while still claiming that they haven't ruled out a referendum. Corbyn is anti-EU. Always has been. He wants this policy, while pretending to listen to all those "taking part". He is perpetuating a con… and he thinks it will be to the benefit of his party, himself, and the country… I'm sure he honestly believes that… and Labour members thinking otherwise is irrelevant to him… he believes they are wrong.
Feel free to cite the relevant policies that support your claim:
I take it from your comment that you are suggesting that Socialism is no longer about “gaining control of the ‘commanding heights’of the economy”, state control of industry being the bedrock of that enterprise?
Momentum and Corbyn and his allies describe themselves as socialists, therefore this would be their ultimate aim, no matter what short-term policies they enable on their long march towards their workers paradise...
Is none of this the case, then?
I take it from your comment that you are suggesting that Socialism is no longer about “gaining control of the ‘commanding heights’of the economy”, state control of industry being the bedrock of that enterprise?
You are the one making claims, not me. If true, they would be easy to substantiate.
<h1 class="section_heading">“Commanding heights of the economy</h1>
<hr id="content_block_0_hr" />
<div id="content_block_0" class="content_block">
The <b>commanding heights of the economy</b>refers to existing private industry essential to the economy like public utilities, natural resources, heavy industry and transport as well as control over foreign and domestic trade. This phrase emerged from a branch of modern political philosophy concerned with organizing society and can be traced back to Karl Marx's idea on socialism, which stresses the commanding heights and advocates for government control of it. This should not be confused with complete socialism or communism.
According to Yevgeni Preobrazhensky, a Bolshevik economist, control over the "commanding heights of the economy" would ensure "primitive socialist accumulation".<sup id="cite_ref-FOOTNOTEBonner201386_1-0" class="reference">[1]</sup>Deng Xiaoping, the leader who along with Chen Yun introduced the Chinese economic reforms, was inspired by this concept. The Communist Party of China still believes to this day that the state needs to control the economy's commanding heights.”
</div>
Nice bit of cut+pastery. Care to actually explain what the point is?
My problems with Corbyn are twofold:
In Labour's fantasy future, where there is a snap election and they win, he will try to ram through a "Labour brexit" which will be just as shit as the tory brexit, only a different flavour.
Other than that, he is liable to lend support to the tory brexit anyway, as he has already done in several ways.
The second reason is why I don't trust him how, the former is why I couldn't vote Labour in an election if it were to happen,
Nice bit of cut+pastery. Care to actually explain what the point is?
It's almost as though he wants to change the subject.
Well if there's one thing that Brexit shows us it's how ****ing useless our politicians, parties and entire political system are.
I think it showed how incapable the average voter is of objectivity.
Well if there’s one thing that Brexit shows us it’s how **** useless our politicians, parties and entire political system are.
We get the political system we deserve. Nothing will ever change until we stop ceding responsibility for what happens in our everyday lives to other people who pretend to show an interest so that they can gain power, wealth, and status.
Brexit is a weird one. On the surface it shows there is a willingness among the public to regain the power that has been exercised against them for the past 40 years. Dig deeper though and it's the same usual story of powerful people pulling strings for their own self interest. What we need is people in government who are willing to return power (even if it's just a bit) to the people, and as far as I can see, Corbyn et al are the only people interested in doing that.
Nice bit of cut+pastery. Care to actually explain what the point is?
Of course. I don't mind repeating myself.
However, to tie this closer to thread subject- it's his Socialist Principles (as outlined in the cutandpaste) that make him eager to support Brexit, as he sees it as a sort of Capitalist (boo!) club which exists to grind the faces of the 'working classes' under the boot heel of oppressive monied elites (although we don't know if these conspirators are exclusively Jewish or not, in Corbyn's opinion)...
1: he will find it increasingly difficult to sell this idea to Labour supporters in the country and to those Labour MP's in Parliament, who are remainers and
2: this evidence of his Socialist economic viewpoint (commanding heights) renders him unelectable in the UK.
He and his supporters careful policy filtering to try and present a 'sensible' programme of intentions is seen as suspect in that it is attempting to hide the long term aim of a Socialist revolution of the type he evidently has enthusiasm for - witness his support for Maduro, for instance.
A pig in a poke, if ever there was one.
I hope that's clear?
He and his supporters careful policy filtering to try and present a ‘sensible’ programme of intentions is seen as suspect in that it is attempting to hide the long term aim of a Socialist revolution of the type he evidently has enthusiasm for – witness his support for Maduro, for instance.
In other words, he is not proposing policies that support your assertions. Thanks for clearing that up.
2: this evidence of his Socialist economic viewpoint (commanding heights) renders him unelectable in the UK.
keep talking bolloxs if you like but facts is facts
Anyway ....back on track.
Is there any conceivable thing that Enola May can announce that has any chance of being
A. voted through and
B. accepted by the E.U ?
I have absolutely no problem with being a "vassal" state as we clearly don't have anyone competent enough to run this country.
zippy - no and no
Is there any conceivable thing that Enola May can announce that has any chance of being
A. voted through and
B. accepted by the E.U ?
No, nothing acceptable to the EU is supported enough by her party,
Her party can't come up with enough of a coherent policy present to the EU.
To use the going out for a meal analogy, we haven't decided which meal we want, some want all meals at once.
Is there any conceivable thing that Enola May can announce that has any chance of being
Depends if the whips/MI5 provide some good blackmail material for, ermm, influencing voting decisions.
Although that said wouldnt be surprised if the likes of Johnson went for abstaining to hold their principles high as opposed to ending up with the shit show they know their plans will cause. A quick stab in the back myth and they will be well positioned for political games.
Genuine question for the JC crew. How can he actually get a General Election called?
Let's say it's reasonably likely that May's deal gets voted down. JC then proposes a vote of no confidence.
There is no reason for Tory rebels to support it, when they can just depose May from within the party. They don't want to open the door to any possibility of a Labour govt.
That leaves the DUP. If they support it, they could lose a unique position of power, which would be almost impossible to recreate. If they reject it, they can keep holding the Tories hostage.
I can't see how there will be a GE. What am I missing?
(The follow-on Q would be that to have any influence on Brexit, therefore, JC needs to be campaigning for it in parliament or in the press. But he's keeping quiet. So what are Labour going to do between now and March 2019? They keep talking as though there will be a GE, but what grounds are there to realistically expect one? I genuinely don't see it but as I voted for JC in 2015 I really wish I could)
doris - I think thats a reasonable summary. May could easily lose a confidence vote tho. She is reliant on too many unhinged nutters
@TJ - they are certainly unhInged, but if they hate TM and her Brexit deal, they can get rid of her by internal party means, without risking a General Election and the possibility of losing their own seats, and/or losing a Tory government. I don't see why even the biggest headbangers would support Corbyn on a no confidence motion, no matter how unhinged!
her by internal party means
not if they are in the DUP and they think a border is being drawn in the irish sea.
Tories will not vote to let in a Labour government (or just as likely, for a smaller minority Conservative government). Labour can not force a general election. However, some Tories have openly stated they support a new referendum. Many more would back an amendment for one if they felt safe there was a reasonable chance it could be won. Labour could push through an amendment to seek to delay our exit, and have a public vote before the next step. They will not though, because the Leader wants Brexit.
not if they are in the DUP and they think a border is being drawn in the irish sea.
that would certainly be a reason to vote down the Brexit deal, which I wouldn't be surprised at. But if they do, I still don't think they would then want to risk a GE. They would surely prefer just to be rid of May, and it would be far safer to vote down the deal, leave TM in a very vulnerable position, and let Rees Mogg et al do the rest.
Right now they're in a very powerful position - it would only need a shuffle of a few seats in parliament for the DUP to be rendered almost irrelevant. It would be a huge risk to take.
I have absolutely no problem with being a “vassal” state as we clearly don’t have anyone competent enough to run this country
Bang on. Bunch of drivelling incompetent numbskulls, the lot of them.
... and a ‘10% share of the vote’ will not win an election.
Tories will not vote to let in a Labour government
Labour can't force a general election, but they can back May into a corner. If May can't get a withdrawal bill through parliament, there'll be a no confidence vote, even if she wins that she still won't get a bill through parliament and we'll have something of a crisis on our hands with a lame duck government in charge. At some point public opinion will turn, the press will turn on her and she'll be left with little choice but to take it to the people to resolve the crisis. If she hangs on then she'll only be postponing the inevitable whilst reducing her/the tories chances of winning the next election. She may well decide it's better to go early while the polls aren't too bad.
I think that's an optimistic reading - I'm not sure the Tories would allow her to make that call. I think if she was that discredited, they would oust her as leader before she could risk letting JC have a go at the controls.
New leader and new direction = new election though, the public (and MPs) wouldn't stand for anything else. I know technically it doesn't have to.
On a sidenote the rabid right lobby groups, sorry, independent think tanks and representatives of all tax payers
It really would be good to find out how the hell funds them and have the BBC preferably ignore them or if not make it clear that they have sod all to do with the average taxpayer.
Isn’t this all becoming a bit academic now? Whatever May manages to cobble together hasn’t got a cat in hells chance of getting through Parliament, so it’s a no deal Brexit for sure?
So both Jeremy and Boris will be as happy as Larry. Though obviously only one of them really wanted that
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/11/08/north-sea-oil-can-still-bargaining-chip-need/amp/
According to the telegraph there's enough oil left to guarantee the UK gets a good Brexit deal. Which is rich considering the years they spent saying there wasn't enough oil left for an independent Scotland
New leader and new direction = new election though, the public (and MPs) wouldn’t stand for anything else.
They did stand for it in 2016. And 2007. And 1990. In fact (i've just looked this up and been quite surprised) in the last century, fully half of all the new prime ministers came in without a general election being triggered: https://fullfact.org/news/unelected-prime-ministers-common-or-not/
Isn’t this all becoming a bit academic now? Whatever May manages to cobble together hasn’t got a cat in hells chance of getting through Parliament, so it’s a no deal Brexit for sure?
In theory, there is still a chance of May (or her successor) putting together a different deal and getting that through - if it would even be put to parliament anyway - or an extension to A50 (highly unlikely!), or Labour tabling an amendment in the commons and getting some of their ideas through. I'm not holding out an awful lot of hope.
According to the telegraph there’s enough oil left to guarantee the UK gets a good Brexit deal. Which is rich considering the years they spent saying there wasn’t enough oil left for an independent Scotland
You have to wonder what campaign to remain in the UK is going to be based around at the next independence referendum:
a) Only way to remain in the EU! - Ok, not this time
b) There's no oil left! - We'll just pretend we aren't telling the rest of the UK there's enough to keep johnny foreigner running roughshod all over us
c) You can't have the pound! - Oh shit, they don't want it anyway.
d) Erm... Quick, tell Harry and Meghan to start shagging right away. We need more royal babies!!!!
e) You have to have a hard border with the UK, it's impossible for any EU country to border with the UK without a hard border. Except norn irn and eire obviously, but we used up all the unicorns on that one.
- Crap, they're just going to do a Norway and join the EEA meaning they keep most of the benefits of EU membership while also being able to have an open border with England (either that or we'll have managed to persuade the pixies to monitor the border from their hot air balloons).
keep talking bolloxs if you like but facts is facts
He is only gained a swing marginally larger than Blair who came to power on a wave of change and positivity while he is facing a Tory party who are destroying themselves
if he was a bit more palatable he would be wiping the floor
He is only gained a swing marginally larger than Blair who came to power
You mean after 18 years of tory government? With a completely sleeze ridden bunch of ministers who had run through the complete list of possible scandals available? That was a very different time.
I am a fan of Corbyn and what he has done to get the Labour party back to a Labour party and can also see he is a no win position with Brexit (just as May is) but I would agree on finding a different person to front the party if they want to be further ahead as the media got to him a long time ago and that is all a lot of the voters believe/see.
18 years many scandals (sex, bribery etc.) and lead by the grey man... I am torn but this shower edge it as worse for me.
Blair won as a centralist who could appeal to a greater proportion than kinnock. He sadly failed to deliver on the promise. That’s the trouble with voting for ideals, it takes 10 years to really change anything and people lose faith after 2-3 months...
personally I am leaning to a more Proportional representational system which would force the parties to collaborate rather than moan and fight
personally I am leaning to a more Proportional representational system which would force the parties to collaborate rather than moan and fight
Yep, that is what I would favour. The fact a party can get 40% vote and then be in full power doesn't make sense. Should have a cabinet of say which represents the vote (made up of labour, conservative, lib dem etc,.) who all work together to get more commonly accepted things agreed. Would also then be longer term thinking rather than what they can do to win next time.
The problem is with P.R that UKIP would have more seats.
There again the tories wouldn’t have had to appeal to the gammons and we might not be in the current mess.
Ah Jesus. Corbyn's increase in vote share was the result of post-coalition collapse in Lib Dem support. The Tory vote share also increased. How this failure to dispose of the shitest government ever gets represented as success is frankly staggering.
We really are all ****ed.
I know remainers who vote Tory just to keep Corbyn out.
The Irish Times coverage of Brexit has always been bang on....
Brexit shows idiots and incompetents are in charge in the UK
Corbyn’s increase in vote share was the result of post-coalition collapse in Lib Dem support. The Tory vote share also increased.
So all the former lib dem voters switched to Labour? That's quite an assumption. Who do you think former UKIP voters switched to?
I have absolutely no problem with being a “vassal” state as we clearly don’t have anyone competent enough to run this country
Bang on. Bunch of drivelling incompetent numbskulls, the lot of them.
… and a ‘10% share of the vote’ will not win an election.
Maybe Scotland could take over instead of leaving?
Corbyn’s increase in vote share was the result of post-coalition collapse in Lib Dem support. The Tory vote share also increased.
So all the former lib dem voters switched to Labour? That’s quite an assumption. Who do you think former UKIP voters switched to?
Lab and Tory, both of whose vote shares went up, and both of whom claimed success, though only one formed a government. Lib Dems and UKIP went down.
I wonder if budget forecasts for the next Indyref will include the millions of English and Welsh who'll immediately attempt to move North?
Just reading that Irish Times article...
Could this whole farce lead to famine & martial law?
I came here to post the "British" Airways news. No surprise really. There are huge advantages in being a "British" company, and an "EU" company… but in many industries the time to pick one over the other is rushing up fast… sadly.
Tick. Tock.
Maybe Scotland could take over instead of leaving?
As someone living South of the border, I'd be down with that.
So all the former lib dem voters switched to Labour? That’s quite an assumption. Who do you think former UKIP voters switched to?
All the pols I've seen suggest the Cons benefited far more from UKiPs collapse than Labour did. And Labour benefited far more from the LibDem collapse than Cons did. Just polls though, and even since the last election a lot has changed as regards Brexit (or rather nothing that needed to change or be clarified has) so it's all up in the air.
Perhaps the Scots will be kind enough to have the same approach as the island of Ireland. Anyone born either side of the border can get a Scottish (EU) passport. Now that would be excellent.
Blue passport and a nice long queue for those who want to be/stay non-eu. Freedom of movement etc for the rest.
.Perhaps... (You've not watched Outlaw King have you?)
More clamouring for a "Peoples Vote"
Its difficult to see another way forward, despite May's King Canute impression two things haven't changed. She doesn't have a deal that will get through the Commons and the deadline is still March 29th
So what happen's next? An extension to the March 29th deadline seems inevitable. The EU will nod it through as they don't really want a no deal either. This will enrage enough of the swivelled eyed loons to trigger a vote of no confidence in May.
Then what? It might well get voted down and May will soldier on still without a deal that can get past the Common's (as it never existed) or a new Tory leader, which in reality changes nothing as they can't magic up a deal that will satisfy the Commons (again it doesn't exist) any more than May could. Meanwhile the slightly reset clock carries on ticking.
Putting it back to the people starts to look like the only sensible option, with one huge caveat of course, if they vote Leave again then we're back at square one. Although the reality that Brexit can't actually be delivered seems to have dawned on enough people to make this unlikely.
The Labour party really need to get their finger out, if they actually starting backing a second referendum it might happen
The Irish Times absolutely nails it once again about the sheer staggering level of ignorance shown by the Brexiteers
On my fb a thing popped up saying we survived the threat of nazi invasion and the blitz we can survive a no deal Brexit. Also had a picture of Churchill to which I posted a link to the founders of the European Movement.That shut the ****ers up.
That's a long way from cake , eating it and untold wealth for all.
https://europeanmovement.eu/who-we-are/history/
Spectator & BBC 'Journalist' & good chum of Arron Banks, Andrew Neil remains a class act
he has deleted the tweet, but too cowardly to issue an apology
I still think there are enough of the general public to vote in a no deal if it goes to a people's vote.
We've already seen that a sizeable chunk of them can be successfully mislead, whats to say it wont happen again?
Agree with that, we already know there are millions of people who are easily lead and/or don't give a **** how much harm they cause, why should we ask them what to do?
Did someone mention Corbyn...
😕
Putting it back to the people starts to look like the only sensible option, with one huge caveat of course, if they vote Leave again then we’re back at square one.
Not necessarily, because you make the vote specific. a) Leave without a deal b) Take whatever deal May offers, c) Remain, d) keep trying ?
The problem would be if the deal in b) creates a border in Ireland or the Irish sea, but the public vote for it anyway because they don't give a crap or don't know how important it is. Then we'll be in trouble.
Remain would win by a landslide in any referendum with multiple choices.
Remain would win by a landslide in any referendum with multiple choices.
I'm really not convinced another vote is any kind of solution, but couldn't they could avoid any issues with vote splitting by using two questions?
The first could be a simple yes or no on whether we still want to leave or not and a second as a multiple choice between the various deals on the table.
I wouldn't trust the population to vote again - look what happened last time...
Thatcher wouldn’t have referendums on issues like the eu because she knew the electorate wouldn’t understand the incredibly arcane complexities.
Even Jamba knew that a second referendum would be for remain. It's like I've said before, the first referendum was for your own personal dream brexit, which of course every brexiteer interprets as a vote for their personal dream brexit. Whereas the second referendum would be for one specific, real, massively disappointing brexit.
It'll still be possible for individual lies to walk the earth, like £350m for the NHS or whatever, but it'll no longer be possible for them all to peacefully coexist under a simple Leave vote. Leave was only ever a winning proposition when it could be a vote for multiple, incompatible and sometimes impossible Leaves
So we have a deal in draft, probably in pencil technically just about there on the divorce bill if this is to be believed. She just needs to sell it to the cabinet. Should be easy, they just keep wheeling tories who won't vote for any of it.
the nightmare is just beginning
She presents the 'deal' to parliament
Parliament vote it out.
The pound tanks, stock markets tank, businesses execute on the cost saving and relocation measures that as sensible organisations they've been working on just in case.
They 'renegotiate' and basically get the same offer but with minor concessions of no real importance.
Petrified by what happened last time / the prospect of falling out of power the bleating tories fall into line
We get brexit but the country's already blown one foot off before we began.....
**
edit - I'm totally pro-europe but with that as a prospect (presented by I think Pienaar on PM earlier) I'm half inclined that we should vote it through; rip the plaster off in one go - with the bonus that those *s Johnson and Rees-Mogg will be truly *ed off about it.
Seems like a win win for remain.
The deal contains a UK wide backstop with a review mechanism (whatever that means). So BINO.
Labour will apparently vote down anything that doesn't offer all the benefits of SM and CU.
DUP will vote down anything that treats NI different from the UK which would topple the government and Labour get in.. The tories would never do that, if you can rely on the tories for anything it's thier desperate cling to power.
If the deal doesn't make it through parliament it's a no deal by default which only a very small minority of MPs want, so we'd be looking at an extension of a50, or maybe a unilateral retraction pending the outcome of the Scottish ECJ case.
Check, and mate.
Boris Johnson what he assumes is the on the proposed deal reached,
"For the first time in a thousand years, this place, this parliament, will not have a say over the laws that govern this country. It is a quite incredible state of affairs."
By that rationale then in all of the 1000 years up to now, including our time in the EU, then we have had a say in the laws that govern our country. Why was he never been saying this up to the Brexit vote?
That's boris all over. He's both made his point and defeated it all in one sentence..
Points for efficiency I suppose..
Boris knows his history better than that I'm sure...
Of course he does ... He's just telling the idiots what they want to hear...compleatly abhorrent individual..
Shame we haven’t got Corbyn in frankly. A real brexit guy who the leave voters can actually get behind especially those of us traditional labour in the north. Given a proper mandate he could finally show his true colours and “rip the plaster off” as mentioned above - full English brexit with extra beans.
^I'm assuming that's sarcasm, hahaha!
Certainly not. Cobyns Red (But not white and blue) Brexit will usher in the glorious socialist revolution which will finally free the workers from their evil capitalist EU oppressors
Keep up comrade
Off on a slight tangent, I was chatting to a northern rail train guard on a rammed train this morning..
The new trains are still in Spain. They are built and ready to go.
Hopefully they won't be delayed crossing the borders.
He reckoned at least 12 months. And that's pre brexit timetables.
FmL
I think you’ve probably already seen this countries Brexit future with Northern Rail
Apparently they have one of those in the York railway museum.