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Amusing that you are able to pick out such narrow points Mefty when banks & co have repeatedly changed their stories as new revelations have been revealed.
Meuller looking at Banks's comms with Russian ambassador now too (remember when he said it was just a boozy lunch!)
VL & Leave.eu happily coordinated messages together during ref.... see Johnson & Gove lies about Turkey blowing the dog whistle Farages immigrants poster handed them.
VL already been fined for their payments to AIQ & canadian investigation into AIQ still ongoing?
And AIQ blacklisted from handling personal data by ICO (tho they are now working for Bannon on republican projects in the USA)
Naivety or just straight up denial to try & say that cadwalladr hasn't been vindicated, despite some very unpleasant & persistent personal abuse by those lovely people
It swings to leave at an earlier age than most people seem to think.
Probably around the same age that people swing from left to right. As people age and go from being part of a society at the lower end to owning their house, protecting their money they care more about themselves and less about others so switch from labour to conservative and would also favour brexit
I missed this poll…
"Voters in every seat held by a Labour MP support the idea of a so-called 'people's vote' on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, according to a large-scale new poll released on Friday."
The so-called 'will of the people' is shifting.
Still, most of the noise from those close to those leading the Labour Party as regards Brexit since that poll has been about how Banks and his dubious doings should be ignored, as it made no difference to the result in 2016. The win in 2016 is all that matters to Labour's eurosceptic Leaders. Saddening to see what those around them are prepared to do to support them.
Labour MPs need to have a serious think…
Now, which announcements of factory closures should we ignore/discus next…?
Probably around the same age that people swing from left to right.
Pretty much everyone I know has become more left as they get older, as the unfairness of the right's position becomes ever more obvious.
The only exceptions to this are people who started out working class and poor, and are now wealthy. They seem particularly keen to pull the ladder up behind them. Like all the immigrants who voted for brexit to stop immigration.
Pretty much everyone I know has become more left as they get older, as the unfairness of the right’s position becomes ever more obvious.
Some of that is historic and some will be a bubble thing,a s we get older we have selected out social groups and interaction. My parents have certainly fallen into the Daily Fail propaganda camp over the last few years
Pretty much everyone I know has become more left as they get older
Same here, though I suspect that, like which newspaper your read, it has a lot to do with the company you keep.
Cambridge Analytica (“CA”) being involved with <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">Leave.EU</span> other than a preliminary exercise.
Oops looks like mefty missed this one too
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1059917471417843718?s=19
Same here, though I suspect that, like which newspaper your read, it has a lot to do with the company you keep.
Yes, it would be down to that. The data doesn't lie, the shift to conservative happens at around 45-50 years old. The good news is that the age is getting a bit older before people are pulling up the draw bridge as it was around 40 years old a while ago.
I am less left wing than I was when I was 16 but only because at sixteen I was a little bit idealistic!
I veered wildly between Marxist and fascist through puberty and adolescence before alighting on my current position of liberal snowflake which I have held for many years now.
So today we have David "drunken dimwit" Davies saying that mps should vote down the deal so as to force the EU it offering a better one and Domenic "know nothing" Raab saying that he didn't realise how important Dover / Calais is
Jeepers. Its really unbelievable how dim this lot are
Interesting today in focus podcast from the guardian with Yanis varoufakis , illustrating why any negotiations with the eu were never going to work from the start and the subterfuge that Go’s on to undermine.
David “drunken dimwit” Davies
Class act. I wonder, did you fling the same insults at Charles Kennedy? Talk about playing the man and not the ball.
Any "insult" put David davis' way is entirely justified. The man is a stupid ****ing ****.
Nope - Kennady was not a dimwit. He was also an alcoholic. Nor did he hold high offices of state while being patently unfit to do so Davies is just a drunken oaf.
given he turned up drunk for "negotiations" and press conferences and he admitted he didn't need to know anything I think its quite fair enough to call him a drunken dimwit. Its what he is. Not a man deserving of any sympathy
Interesting today in focus podcast from the guardian with Yanis varoufakis , illustrating why any negotiations with the eu were never going to work from the start and the subterfuge that Go’s on to undermine.
Good call that.
Here's the link
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2018/nov/08/taking-on-the-eu-podcast
Davies in april on voting down the deal,
<div class="quoted__contents">
I’m not going to give advice on how to create circumstances which may undermine the government’s negotiating position. I’m not entirely sure how much force a government sent back with its tail between its legs by parliament would have in such a negotiation.
</div>
Davies today
<div class="quoted__contents">
What would happen if the deal fell apart, which I think at the moment is looking like a probability ... If it was voted down, then they would have to go back to the union once more.
Now, this will be a slightly different atmosphere. Both sides will be staring at no deal.
Now, I don’t think no deal is as frightening as people think. But the government is obviously nervous of it. And the European commission, and all the member states - nearly all the member states - are nervous of it. So I think that will force a very, very different, and actually, I think, rather better deal.
</div>
Varoufakis saying there what hes said from the start
It all goes back to Davis- the genius behind Mays early GE to strengthen their brexit mandate after that disaster he & may went from 'scheduling will be the row of the summer' to meekly accepting EU timetable on day1 of talks.
Davis now doing the exactly other thing that Varoufakis says not to; undermining her position back home
remarkable how the government keep making these mistakes!
Your choice of key points is rather fascinating.
To be fair, they are not mine, I paraphrased Tim Shipman, the Sunday Times political correspondent and writer of the most highly regarded book on the campaign - "All Out War", a very good read. However, they are key because without any evidence to support her claims there is no link to the official Leave entity.
To recap, CA misused Facebook data but this was primarily US data and certainly had nothing to do with the referendum. CA were exposed as snake-oil salesman and that has caused the company to go bust and Facebook was fined, but to re-iterate this was nothing to do with the referendum. Her whistleblower was a key participant in this misuse.
The problems arise when she tried to cast a wider web to suggest the same forces were used to cause the UK to vote leave and link it to the official campaign.
To do this it was necessary to establish a significant link between AIQ and CA. Yes, AIQ did work for CA during the US election but their relationship was found to be contractual by ICO so not particularly significant and certainly insufficient to establish a credible link to justify the conspiracy, which would impact the referendum.
CA did do some preliminary work with UKIP/Leave.Eu that is the invoice she tweeted, it is not that interesting as CA's relationship fell away when Vote Leave got official designation and it has been in the public domain for months and has been discussed at the Select Committee.
Leave.eu certainly breached data rules but the vast majority of the fine relates to poor saps who signed up for Leave.eu being marketed with Banks' insurance products, the data breach which might have effect on the referendum was one 300,000 email-shot which is tiny in the context of the campaign.
Vote Leave have been fined for following Electoral Commission advice because the Courts found that whilst the EC had certainly given the advice, it was wrong. Accordingly, the EC fined VL for following their own advice. This is all a bit of mess and everyone is appealing everything.
Fundamentally, there is nothing that swung the referendum here, which those still coming to terms with vote are desperate to find. Brexit has sent people mad.
Apologist.
Disagree with your last statement Mefty - not mad exactly.
On side knew and freely admitted they couldn’t win a rational campaign (ie on the economy), they had to make it emotional (eg immigration, giving our money away).
They were very successful in that.
Unfortunately that genii doesn’t go back in the bottle. If you can keep an argument rational, you have a good chance that people will agree and form consensus afterwards. But with emotional arguments, not so much.
So what we are seeing is just the normal and fairly expected response to the campaign of 3-3 years ago.
As for me, I’m not sure I see a conspiracy, though there may have been one, but I do see the leave campaign as basically corrupt, in premise and in execution and in reaction to their victory.
And that’s what I believe and you can’t challenge beliefs with rational argument. 😉
Now we've got that out of the way we need to stop reliving 2016. They won, we lost. Democracy must now move on to what that victory should actually mean and what the next vote should be on.
Mefty - so all that overspending did not break the rules nor make any difference? How about the money channelled to the NI leave campaign from shady disguised sources. Lots of other dubious sources of funding as well for various leave groups.
As for the CA stuff - theoretically UKIP but infact straight from Banks.
Going back a thousand pages or so in this thread…
- More control of our borders
- No new border controls on the island of Ireland
- No new border controls in the sea between NI and rUK
3 redlines "we" won't cross. Now, draw the shape those redlines make on a map. Publish it to be scrutinised.
This needed doing before calling a referendum on it, and getting public backing for such a redrawing of our borders
This needed doing before triggering A50 and limiting our time to implement the changes
It still needs doing before seeking approval from UK ministers, MPs, the NI public, the Irish government, the currently sleeping NI assembly, never mind the EU.
Didnt the ICO also say theres no way to know if te Eldon insurance customers who had their data shared ilegaly with CA/AIQ were influeneced by the targeted advertising they received?
And its hardly mad to enjoy watching Banks, Wigmore, UKIP, Leave.EU being forced to constantly change their story as their lies get exposed again & again, schadenfreude time!
As the DUP are waving their willies around again good summary of who May needs to win over to get her pleases no one deal through parliament, assuming that cabinet can swallow it in the first place & get it signed off by the end of the month
vote in january?
(also R4 this morning interviewed the people Davis claimed on the show yesterday who said no deal would be no problem- head of port at dover & ports in northern France- they did not corroborate his fiction)
Didnt the ICO also say theres no way to know if te Eldon insurance customers who had their data shared ilegaly with CA/AIQ were influeneced by the targeted advertising they received?
Not specifically, just a general comment that we may never know the impact of any data breaches but that isn't their job, which is to police them. Nothing to do with CA, who had no ongoing role, or AIQ, who worked with Vote Leave.
ICO report said that AIQ placed $2m worth of targeted facebook adds for Vote Leave, Leave.EU & BeLeave, as well as other adds also for DUP
this is where Banks' lies caught him out he claimed that his company Big Data Dolphins was using CAs methods to target voters, but the ICO couldnt confirm it
this has been refereed to the Police by the ICO & is being investigated whether the data came from Banks's Eldon, users of GoSkippy etc
also In july this year the ICO orderd AIQ to stop using UK citizens data obtained from political organisations
I'm really enjoying this whole farce now. I enjoy reading quotes and tweets and not having any idea if they're satire or not, and the joy of realising that someone actually said something that monumentally stupid in public reminds me that no matter how dim I might be, there's always someone thicker.
If a vote for either a hard or a so Brexit materialises initially I thought id vote soft.
That means I will have voted to leave the EU. Something I don't think I can do.
It would also mean 100% of voters voted to leave.That would be used as a mandate to do whatever the **** the idiots wanted.
As much as I'd take a soft over a hard I really don't know what I'd do. Aargh.
You know, I actually don't give much of a shit about the funny money and the dodgy dealings. The problems with brexit are intrinsic to brexit and would remain regardless of how many people sincerely wanted it or how much they were/were not influenced by illegal ads.
What I still want to see from the brexiters is a credible plan for what to do and how the country gains from it, not a litany of excuses and arguments about how and why they won. Yes, you won, we know, so shit or get off the pot.
Yesterday we had the edifying spectacle of Davis criticising his own incompetent negotiations when he was Brexit Secretary, and Raab discovering that we are an island that does a lot of trade through Dover/Calais.
Tick, and tock.
ICO report said that AIQ placed $2m worth of targeted facebook adds for Vote Leave, <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">Leave.EU</span> & BeLeave, as well as other adds also for DUP
No it doesn't, AIQ worked for Vote Leave, Beleave, DUP and VfB, but NOT Leave.EU.
That means I will have voted to leave the EU. Something I don’t think I can do.
I'm going to draw an extra box for "Remain in the EU as before" on my ballot and tick that.
I'm wondering what happens to the vote if the majority of ballots are spoiled? Would it nullify the vote so they'd have to run it again? And if so, can we just keep spoiling until they ask the right question?
As much as I’d take a soft over a hard I really don’t know what I’d do. Aargh.
The problem here is the same as it was two years ago. There is no soft brexit, there never was, it's a cake and unicorns fantasy. The EU will never move on splitting the Four Freedoms and we can't put a border in Ireland (by law, now). Which leaves us in a situation where the only "soft" brexit option would be for us to capitulate to the freedom of movement and all that jazz - ie, Brexit In Name Only - meaning we'd be in almost the same position we are now only no longer having any say in EU decisions. And absolutely no-one wants that, it'd arguably be more insane than just crashing out.
A referendum on hard or soft brexit (where's that come from, did I miss something?) would be, literally, a box ticking exercise. Say for the sake of argument 100% of voters voted hard. Or 100% voted soft. Then what, what does that gain us? Does the "will of the people" suddenly make the impossible possible?
No it doesn’t, AIQ worked for Vote Leave, Beleave, DUP and VfB, but NOT Leave.EU.
They're all different cheeks of the same arse, I don't think it matters hugely.
ahh so it was just the official brexit campaign that gave AIQ uk users data
but they are such honest individuals.....
They’re all different cheeks of the same arse, I don’t think it matters hugely.
It does if you want to suggest there is a conspiracy.
ahh so it was just the official brexit campaign that gave AIQ uk users data
but they are such honest individuals…..
Vote Leave generated data, which was then used by AIQ to send out targetted facebook ads, all allowed within data protection law.
AIQ were ordered to delete personal data of UK individuals it had held on to
they claimed that as a canadian company they werent bound by ICO, but they & the canadian government disagreed
I liked it when honest operator Banks had this in an email chain when he sent his financial records to the BBC to help clear his name
Redact the reference for Ural Properties
as if by magic
But you miss out the concluding sentance of Section 3.6.1 of the ICO's report. This is the section that discusses the enforcement notice etc. The final sentance is
Our further investigations into AIQ revealed no evidence of the unlawful
processing of UK personal data
Is there a distinction there between ilegally retaining & processing data?
meanwhile
So, both Johnsons have now resigned from government because the Brexit on offer is much worse than remaining. One staunchly for Leave. One staunchly for Remain.
I'd prefer it if they didn't resign and just got on with their bloody jobs. So full of themselves. it's not like they've actually quit, they're not down the Job Centre signing up for Universal Credit
"Indeed, the choice being presented to the British people is no choice at all.
"The first option is the one the government is proposing: an agreement that will leave our country economically weakened, with no say in the EU rules it must follow and years of uncertainty for business.
"The second option is a 'no deal' Brexit that I know as a Transport Minister will inflict untold damage on our nation.
"To present the nation with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos, is a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis."
lol the penny has finally dropped, our brightest and best are pretty slow and dim
on with their bloody jobs
Which is? When it comes to Brexit? Deliver the undeliverable? Or knowingly walk the country into a powerless cul de sac? Or rip up all Ireland measures of the GFA? Bring goods transit to a crawl?
Now the RLF (Religious Loony Fringe) of Ulster won’t support Mays’ deal plan.
Cliff edge a bit closer.
Tick tock.
There’s really only one question to ask these delusional brexiteer half-wits...
seriously... WTF did you think was going to happen?
Pretty depressing thinking the countries economic future is now going to be devasted on the say-so of a handful of creationist headbangers who’ve got this gang of raging incompetents by the short and curlies
I actually saw a post today that said "the main point of the GFA was to introduce power sharing, and power sharing isn't working so why not just abandon it since it's obviously not important". Sometimes, i just don't even know how to don't know.
Which is? When it comes to Brexit? Deliver the undeliverable? Or knowingly walk the country into a powerless cul de sac? Or rip up all Ireland measures of the GFA? Bring goods transit to a crawl?
Or do none of those things and act in the best interests of the country.
Well at least we all now know how next summers going to be looking. Hot.
This has it about right.
Being reasonable and having the best interests of the country at heart, and being a Leaver are mutually incompatible. Always have been, always will be.
Even the ****s in the Tories can’t pretend any more. The only people who can be seriously in favour of this colossal turd are the short sellers and smash and grab merchants who want to make an overnight killing and piss off to the Virgin Islands for the rest of their lives.
Bit of an update, i have been doing a bit of a participation on a very different blog over the last month and ....
Brexitters
1. They are on the whole as we have established not very good at hard evidence, data, understanding the implications, spotting propaganda etc.
2. This is not about wealth or security, they just dont like us liberal, lefty snowflakes because we have persecuted them with the assistance of the elites and the EU.
3. In summary they are poorly educated, easily led and you could get them all to go to war with the EU in a heartbeat.
There is no hope for this country, it will take too long to breed them out.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's that simple. Many people are resentful at paying taxes and they perceive liberals as out to take their money off them. With the EU being broadly left wing, I'm not at all surprised that they see it as a personal attack.
The same stunningly selfish pepple who get angry when they're behind a cyclist; or whom consider the environment theirs to destroy, are unlikely to support any policy that doesn't benefit them personally.
His job is to look after Transport. Quitting just sets that back.
And he can also try to argue his case on Brexit from the inside.
He's not allowed to vote or speak against govt policy as a minister though. I'm sure he was genuine in looking for a realistic brexit, just a bit slow on realising that there isn't one.
I’m sure he was genuine in looking for a realistic brexit, just a bit slow on realising that there isn’t one.
Makes you wonder how many MPs are just totally ****ing thick, though, doesn’t it?
I mean, being brought up ‘traditionally’ my first instinct with people like MPs, judges, doctors and the like is that they are ‘proper grown ups’ and must be there entirely by merit and must be above average intelligence. More and more I am being forced to question this.
How can anyone who ‘does’ politics for a job think Brexit or any of the brown shades of Brexit be good for the UK?
I’ve just posted this in another thread but i’m Putting it on this one because I’ve just finished reading Stuart Maconies brilliant “Long March from Jarrow’ today and, like him, i’m Seething with anger at the present Labour Party and the totally ineffectual idiot at the helm ...
Another resignation over Brexit . And with a statement from the leading protagonists brother pointing out what everyone what anyone with anything between their ears has been saying for the last two years
And where’s the Labour Party? HM Opposition? Anyone......?
The silence is deafening
Corbyn and the rest of his *ing useless incompetent cabal will get what they’ve always really wanted... their hard Brexit, and the deluded, terminally dense, placard-waving Momentum members will get what they really didn’t want, but they got anyway through supporting these anti-EU zealots they think of as revolutionaries. Oh they’re revolutionaries alright you *-wits. It’s just the polar opposite of the revolution you had in mind
They’ll probably still think it’s absolutely bloody brilliant though, because... you know ... Jeremy
We’re truly *ed! And those that are apparently on the left are as utterly complicit in this as the hard right!
I really do truly *ing despair!
A confederacy of dunces.
“At this moment in our national journey, the government makes much more sense when you realise it can only be a massive hidden-camera simulation designed solely to amuse the occupants of a distant planet. Clustered round a visual port somewhere in Andromeda galaxy, interconnected strings of aliens cry with laughter every week at top-rating series Big Brexit, in which the hapless denizens of a Truman-like shitshow fail to realise they are being taken for a ride by their competition-winner overlords. Every UK resident stars.”
Marina is spot on again. The ignorance of some of these buffoons is breathtaking. No wonder they can't run the country.
The silence is deafening
I don't know what you mean, Corbyn isn't silent at all! He's busy telling German newspapers that brexit can't be stopped.
He's going to look mighty stupid if the Tories do a u-turn on a referendum and he's left on his own with a load of ukip types.
Chocolate fireguard, teapot etcetera
The Der Spiegle interview referred to by phiiiiil:
Supporting Labour?
Doublethink.
That's what you're beginning to experience.
Doublethink.
For months I've been writing to my mp moaning about the 30% chocolate tax that will be imposed on us by Geneva. I've gone full gammon saying that the doors of the EU prison have been sprung open only to be shackled to the despotic WTO.
Wanting to know why unelected foreign bureaucrats can determine what price I have to charge for my goods.
I've used the terms taking back control. , treason and surrender liberally.My last letter ended with me saying that we were lied to and I am now a reluctant remainer as I would be better off in the EU.
I feel this approach would have more effect that me just saying that I want to stay.
This week I've called UKIP and mentioned all the above. They seemed genuinely surprised about the tax and as they took me for a full on gammon said they would look into it and get back to me.
Subvert from within.
Chocolate is the least of your worries.
The UK has only about 3 days worth of raw materials to make bog roll. The materials come from Europe, Scandinavia on a JIT supply chain.
If we have a hard brexit we literally won't be capable of wiping our own arses.
though we should be ok for weetabix I have it on good authority that they are stockpiling their European supplies.
Well just back from another simple and seamless work trip to the EU, this time Cork, it's worth a look over to see how much investment is going on and how busy it is. Ads at the airport to try and temp Irish construction workers back over
The UK was the default location of the English speaking world to have an EU base due to the language and cultural similarities. Ireland is going to get those now, being in the EU is worth a lot to those companies.
Interesting piece in the Grauniad yesterday which helped me get a bit more of a handle on our leading brexiteer, the Mogg Dogg
Selfish he is. Stupid he ain't
I mean, being brought up ‘traditionally’ my first instinct with people like MPs, judges, doctors and the like is that they are ‘proper grown ups’ and must be there entirely by merit and must be above average intelligence. More and more I am being forced to question this.
Just because someone is above average intelligence does not mean they give a shit about others. Lots of intelligent tories, they just have a different way of thinking about how society should be.
Binners - I ask yo again what would you have Corbyn do?
Remember his party is badly split and characters like Burnham who IIRC you would have had as leader stated quite clearly " the will of the people must be respected" Come out for remain he immediately gets the press in full on attack mode, ditto for a second referendum and either of those positions splits the party wide open.
What should Corbyn do? Back a call for a referendum, or step aside. He isn't backing Brexit because he is scared of the press. He isn't backing Brexit because a significant minority of Labour voters want him to. He is backing it because he wants it. Would A50 have been triggered without a plan, without his fervent backing? Why is he still saying Brexit is unstoppable? What else is he saying is "done" and he won't oppose? What is his voting record as regards our place in Europe?
I would have Corbyn back a second referendum. Mr '7.5/10' can use his apparently considerable orator powers to help bring round any wavering voters.
Surely all the Corbyn acolytes on here have faith in his abilities to at least do that for the good of the country?
Or step aside. He can then spend the next 20 years on the back benches voting against anything he wants to and presumably be a much happier soul.
For the record I have never voted for any party other than Labour. I live in the north and work for a successful manufacturing company (although that may all be bolloxed because of the failure of people like Corbyn). I expect tories to be in for themselves - I totally get it. I don't expect the Opposition party 'leader' to stand idly by while the country goes to hell. I'm still wondering which rat hole he disappeared down during the march against Brexit.
Uncle Jezza - He’s a coward and a fraud who wants Brexit, the harder the better (oo-we missus!) as much, if not more than IDS and Moggy, but won’t actually come out and say so because he’s rather fond of of the adulation and cult of celebrity he’s afforded by his delusional supporters. How you/they’re squaring that particular circle is totally beyond me. It’s a total paradox! And a bloody obvious one at that
its worth reading Stuart Maconies Long March From Jarrow. It’s an incisive and brilliantly passionately researched study of the history of the working class history, and the Labour Party, viewed through the context of Brexit and the rise of ego-fuelled narcisstic populists like Trump, Farage And Corbyn (just because his politics are different doesn’t mean he is)
its a really good read. His verdict on Corbyn is thoughtful, considered and absolutely damning!
He’s weak, totally disengaged on the real issues, and his Labour Party faux-revolutionary cabal is as useless in representing the interests of the working class as the party of 1936 who watched the Jarrow Crusade with the same metropolitan contempt
Brexit will be an absolute disaster for the working classes he claims to represent, and an absolute gift to the corporatist interests of the hard right.
i expect the leader of the Labour Party to be bright enough to know that and act accodingly
Fat chance of that!
"Brexit will be an absolute disaster for the working classes he claims to represent, and an absolute gift to the corporatist interests of the hard right."
Which is exactly what Mogg senior wrote 20 years ago in the book mentioned in the guardian link above, though obviously he was speaking as a rampant right wing fascist so it was all good for him and the little Moggs
I ask yo again what would you have Corbyn do?
Fek off and die
No offense.
Corbyn is in just as much as a 'check mate' as the Conservatives are.
They are all in 'check mate' because they are putting party politics ahead of actually doing something.
Let's call the whole thing off?
Let’s face the music and dance?
Corbyn is in just as much as a ‘check mate’ as the Conservatives are.
Well the stats were in, all Labour seats support a second referendum
Well the stats were in, all Labour seats support a second referendum
Really. I'm in a 68% Brexit John Mann stronghold!
What have I missed?
Brexit will be an absolute disaster for the working classes he claims to represent, and an absolute gift to the corporatist interests of the hard right
Lots of them voted for it.
You can't blame him for that.
Supporting Brexit is one thing, supporting this farce that doesn't deliver is another
Binners – I ask yo again what would you have Corbyn do?
I'd have him do what is right for the country. Old-fashioned idea I know.