[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

flanagaj - Member
@boardinbob - that might explain the rules but does not answer controlling immigration.

From a hypothetical perspective if 500k EU citizens were able to arrive tomorrow could the UK government stop it?

No. So that means EU migration cannot be controlled.

After 3 months if they didn't have work, they could. so yes it can be controlled. It just isn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/23/brexit-may-blocked-unilateral-offer-for-eu-citizens-rights-last-june

Osbourne seems to be enjoying driving that knife into May. I wouldn't say stabbing in the back either.

From a hypothetical perspective if 500k EU citizens were able to arrive tomorrow could the UK government stop it?

If there are the jobs then they can stay, if there aren't they have to go. What Westminster choses to do within the EU framework is the UKs problem not the EU. That most brexiteers aren't aware of how badly the UKs government has failed them is depressing. Only adds to the sense of foreboding when they realise that they have been taken for idiots.

Motorways. Often jammed up. What do you do? Do you build more lanes? Well, no, that doesn't work, just generates more traffic. So, what next? It seems, that the next best option is to try & manage the flow of traffic & folks driving habits so traffic keeps moving.

Or think about the bigger picture, why are people driving, more trains instead. why do people drive big cars that waste space, so incentivise smaller cars. Why are some M-ways rammed and others not, maybe you can relocate some capacity etc.

What our governments have been truly crap at is the big picture, UK governments have been firefighting for decades, how long has it taken to consider HS2 or heathrow, what about the age structure of UK power generation. etc etc. Look at education, health, transport, etc etc etc. all barely fit for purpose and patched together.

+10000000
only looking as far as the next GE. 🙄

mrmo - Member
If there are the jobs then they can stay, if there aren't they have to go.

If there is a job for non-EU people can they stay (assuming the got the job)? 🙄

What Westminster choses to do within the EU framework is the UKs problem not the EU.

That most brexiteers aren't aware of how badly the UKs government has failed them is depressing.

Only adds to the sense of foreboding when they realise that they have been taken for idiots.

i know, i know, replying to chewie...

...we have decided to ditch the EU bureaucratic framework.

except we haven't.

everything we sell to the EU, will be subject the same EU bureaucracy as before. if anything, even more...

(and of course, we won't have any position to influence that bureaucracy)

It's the tax TAKE not the tax RATE that's important. Just saying I'm prepared to pay more tax says little, however well meaning the intention.

If there is a job for non-EU people can they stay (assuming the got the job)?

Not automatically, no. Why would there be?

t's the tax TAKE not the tax RATE that's important.

and a good way to increase the tax TAKE is....

everything we sell to the EU, will be subject the same EU bureaucracy as before. if anything, even more...

And much of that "bureaucracy" is good as it ensures good standards are maintained.

and a good way to increase the tax TAKE is....

and a good way to increase the tax TAKE is....

Drunk Bus

Great idea.

They don't have any money, leave them where they are?

Spend there last bit of money on a cab home rather than on another round?

I'd be happy to pay something at point of service, even if it's only tuppence, if it's going to go directly into the NHS & but I resent an increase in tax when there's still a small section of society who abuse the system & I am effectively subsiding.

I'm not saying means testing is the only way to fund the NHS but it could be an additional way - likewise lifestyle illnesses.

Incentivising folks to take better care of themselves by hitting their pockets if they don't might be another way of helping the NHS.

Simply rasing taxes is not the answer & will not solve other problems the NHS is currently facing.

We need to have a multi-faceted approach to its problems.

oldracer - Member

Spend there last bit of money on a cab home rather than on another round?

Ah a time machine

The other thing is, as I understand it, the NHS is very good at reactive health care but not so good at proactive I.e. self care et al.

A change there could help..?

Ah a time machine

No, it's called taking responsibility for onself & ones actions, not discharging them to someone else..

Any chance you could take this to another thread oldracer & co?

We're giving the NHS £350 million more a week, and telling nurses that we're training "our own" so that they can "go home"… so job done as far as leaving the EU to save the NHS… additional improvements, if any are needed after such a wonder fix, aren't really related to leaving the EU.

What happened to the Drunk Bus btw? Still running? If you pardon the pun!

Almost done kelvin - I've said all I can think of promise!

oldracer - Member

No, it's called taking responsibility for onself & ones actions, not discharging them to someone else..

Nah, it's about the unexpected. Wishing you had £10 for a taxi after you missed your last bus home isn't the same as keeping £10 in your pocket when you're sure you'll get the bus.

But besides, you don't get a lift in an ambulance just because you've got no money for a taxi. You get medical attention when you're incapable.

Food for thought NW - the NHS doesn't entirely agree with you:

[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/02/alcohol-accident-emergency-keep-drunk-people-out-of-hospital ]Graun link[/url]

The skew of EU migrants in vs UK nationals out to other EU states just reinforces my view that EU migration is not balanced.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/27/fewer-britons-in-rest-of-europe-than-previously-thought-ons-research ]Link[/url]

British nationals choosing to make the old eastern bloc countries their home looks countable on one hand 😆

why does it have to be balanced?

British nationals choosing to make the old eastern bloc countries their home looks countable on one hand

??

does your hand have 50,000 fingers?

and agreed what possible difference does it make whether its balanced or not?

oldracer - Member

Food for thought NW - the NHS doesn't entirely agree with you:

You realise the line about "using us as a taxi service" is talking specifically about someone who plans to drink himself into oblivion so that he needs an ambulance? That's a medical issue through and through

You seem intent on absolving folks of any responsibility of their actions...even when the NHS themselves say they think folks need to...?

Just to clarify - do you disagree with any of these statements:
(they are all from NHS staff in the link)

" Often they don’t need A&E help – they just need to sleep it off" - a paramedic.
"“A lot of people treat the ambulance like a free cab service,” says Ged Blizzard, director of emergency services for the North West Ambulance Service, citing a man in Manchester who rang to ask if he could book an ambulance for 11.45 in case he needed one due to drinking too much."
“We definitely have our ‘regulars’,” says the paramedic outside the Royal Liverpool, who asks to remain anonymous."

I love the idea of a Drunk Bus - I think it's great & if it worked likes you said I'm fully behind it.

BUT folks do need to take responsibility for their actions & stop abusing the system, even the NHS think so.

There's also this reinforcing your point:

“One of the challenges in A&E is to distinguish between someone who is simply drunk and someone who has been drinking but also has a serious medical problem. There is a tendency to blame every drinker for their predicament, but there are 1.5 million people in this country dependent on, or addicted to, alcohol – which is an illness. Alcohol may be legal, but it is a drug of dependence, and how we use it is a huge issue affecting society.”
Prof Gilmore, Royal College of Physicians

It's simply not one sided & I'm glad I don't have the responsibility to unpick it!

possible difference does it make whether its balanced or not?

Zzzzz. Why do I waste time on this forum arguing the toss with a load of socialists.

Mods. Delete my account!!!

FLOUNCE 😆

NW, I'm going to wrap up here so this thread isn't derailed anymore (apologies to kelvin).

The NHS has to change & evolve. If you're environment changes & you wish to survive then you must change accordingly.

We as a society have to change how we view the NHS, how we use & how it's funded.

Rasing taxes & throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it....we need a discussion how that is affected.

Just in case anyone is wondering...

1. I am in no way in favour of the Tory attempts to privatise the NHS.
2. I am not in favour of mandatory health insurance.
3. I am in favour of some means of means testing/minor payment at point of service.
4. I can afford health insurance but chose to use the NHS if the need suits - I am happy to be means tested.
5. I voted Liberal..

My apologies for the derail, I shan't comment on this topic on this thread again. NW if you want to start a thread I'll see you there. Good chatting to you.

Zzzzz. Why do I waste time on this forum arguing the toss with a load of socialists.

Perhaps the Daily Mail has a forum where you can waste your time agreeing with right wingers about how great Diana was? 🙂

flanagaj - Member
The skew of EU migrants in vs UK nationals out to other EU states just reinforces my view that EU migration is not balanced.

Yep. The UK is reaping far more of the benefits of immigration than other EU countries.

(Actually I suspect what flanagaj has found is than more Poles speak British than Brits speak Polish)

It's like the Daily Mail Headline generator around these parts these days 😆

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

HAVE CYCLISTS GIVEN BRITAIN'S FARMERS CANCER?

ARE ASYLUM SEEKERS GIVING YOUR HOUSE DIABETES?

oldracer - Member

You seem intent on absolving folks of any responsibility of their actions

Not at all, I just think whether or not they're being irresponsible isn't a good reason to leave them in trouble. I don't like end-of-the-wedge arguments but trying to hit that big gap jump is irresponsible.

oldracer - Member

Just to clarify - do you disagree with any of these statements:
(they are all from NHS staff in the link)

" Often they don’t need A&E help – they just need to sleep it off" - a paramedic.
"“A lot of people treat the ambulance like a free cab service,” says Ged Blizzard, director of emergency services for the North West Ambulance Service, citing a man in Manchester who rang to ask if he could book an ambulance for 11.45 in case he needed one due to drinking too much."
“We definitely have our ‘regulars’,” says the paramedic outside the Royal Liverpool, who asks to remain anonymous."

The first- if someone is so pissed they need to sleep it off, but isn't capable of getting home, then it's not an A&E need but there's nowhere else for them to do it. A different process could handle it but we don't have that different process.
The example "using it as a taxi" as I say is someone predicting he might need an ambulance because he's drunk too much. That's alcoholism.
Likewise regulars- it doesn't mean they're abusing the NHS, it means they're getting drunk and ending up in hospital frequently. Again that's medical. There's other ways it can be handled but that doesn't mean it's wrong now for them to end up in hospital.

kerley - Member
and a good way to increase the tax TAKE

Deliver economic growth - simple

But first you have to understand why economic growth is disappointing - and western governments have shown a spectacular inability to do this. Hence the wrong solutions to the wrong problems continue

On top of that we now have Brexshit.

So if your livelihood is based in government revenues then you are STILL in for a very tough time irrespective of which fool is in #10. One things is for sure, the bearded wonder doesn't have the solution any more than the fools currently in charge.

It's not very pretty and the economy was slowing anyway. So turns out not so simple after all. But raising taxes certainly isn't the answer.

THM - as a champagne socialist (never knowingly in fashion) that sounds about right.
Of course adding immigrants to your economy (particularly of an age range that is low burden - i.e. not old folk or children) can grow the economy without increasing the burden on the public purse.

I am all for FoM igm

Yet another example of governments screwing us up.

Buy your fruit now and freeze it because there will be shortage of fruit late summer, unless those who complained can be arsed to pick it themselves

[quote=teamhurtmore ]I am all for FoM igm

Probably for the same reasons JC is against it 😉

Well that went well - I thought David Davies thought he could hang on to these..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-40381320

I was thinking this calls for a tripple face palm.

But I was wrong, so so wrong.

[img] [/img]

Well that went well - I thought David Davies thought he could hang on to these..

THM - you are a most annoying righty. I keep agreeing with you. What's a self respecting bleeding heart liberal lefty like me meant to do?

That's good news for the remaining members of the EU though nipper.

Would be good to see those agencies relocated to some new or more needy EU members

Davis being shown to be completely deluded

well theres a surprise

Davis being shown to be completely deluded

well theres a surprise

If only he was as clever as he thinks he is.