shock horror micheal o'leary was right!
I am all for listening to your party members, but there are times when he needs to take charge, which never seems to happen.
He took charge when changing the party rules didn't he?
John McDonnell has sort of clarified his second Brexit vote comments. He said: "Keir is right. We are keeping all the options on the table."Asked if that included Remain: "...we are saying respect the past referendum and I just tell you we have to be careful what we wish for."
I understand his reservations about a second referendum but I think he is wrong. The wording of the composite motion is clear. Remain is on the table.
Also missed in all this is as stated by him and others many times Labour wish to remain in the single market. Looks like they are heading for EEA status as an aim
The wording of the composite motion is clear
I'm amazed you're persisting with this, it's very deliberately not clear at all. You're projecting what you want onto it, which is exactly what it was designed to let you do.
I hope I'm wrong but after seeing how long it took Labour to sort out their policy on antisemitism,I doubt they could get themselves in a position to do something constructive about Brexit before the deadline.
johnners - no I am not. Its clear in its aims and limitations. The party cannot be tied to a single tightly defined position at this point but a needed they need to have a direction to head in and this provides it.
You need to read a fair amount to get thru the obvious bias in the reporting and look at what the players are actually saying.
Edit - remeber they have to keep a badly divided party from breaking out into civil war. You have the full range - from Hoey who wants a hard leave to ardent pro europeans who want the UK to regain its central place in the EU
They also have to protect against being labelled as "ignoring the will of the people" and I understand the reservations about another referendum ( shared by the SNP) even tho I think it wrong
The panic is obvious in the Tory Party, all sides of the conservatives are backed into a corner regardless of which side of the Brexit fence they sit on.
May has already folded (a busted flush maybe) the collective Tory view has been that the EU in some shape or form would "adjust" the four freedoms.....
The Tory mistake has been that they believe that they are the only political organisation that has dogma.
The EU risk of compromise on the four freedoms far outweighs the loss of the UK, they have stuck to their position from day one.
So all that remains (no pun intended) is the March outcome, there is really only one option left to all the Tories- Hard Brexit.
So what do us mere mortals do.... dig for victory, share bath water, max out the plastic? Looks like we are going to see.
The jobs ****ed, this is kharma on a national scale maybe global. Time to sit on the porch with a shotgun and a cigar. At least it will be interesting.
“The meeting was very careful not to define the question, because we don’t know if we’re dealing with a deal or no deal – but equally, it was not ruling anything out, and the words ‘on the deal’ were removed, to emphasise the openness of that question,” he said. ( Starmer)
“Certainly, there was no ruling out of anything, and no ruling out of remain as an option. That was clearly the mood of the room, and in fact that’s reflected in the motion.”
McDonnell later sought to clarify his remarks, saying: “Keir is right. We are keeping all the options on the table.” But he has repeatedly stressed the risks of a new vote, saying it could embolden the far right.
So thats pretty clear to me.
1:we want an election
2: If we don't get one we want a second referendum and nothing is ruled in or out for that vote.
3) McDonnell has reservations about a referendum for a variety of reasons. Thats his personal view not party policy.
They cannot say what that vote will be exactly because they don't know when it will be and what the state of the negotiations will be at that point.
The panic is obvious in the Tory Party
That's how we got here in the first place.
tj your idea of clarity is a woolly piece of obfuscation which is trying to be all things to all men while committing to nothing. It is a good example of a composite motion but clear it is certainly not nor was it ever intended to be.
1 We might do a thing, sometime,
2 F*** knows what it might be, We don't. And we're not saying what it might be under any particular circumstance.
3 We're solidly behind "honouring" the result of the referendum but won't say what that means.
It calls to mind "An undertaking of great advantage and no one to know what it is"
I expect you'll continue claiming it's clear but that won't make it so and neither will accusing everyone who's arrived at a different conclusion to you of being a ****less dupe to "obvious bias in the reporting".
FFS We were planning a road/ferry trip to southern Spain next year so we could take the mutt... Now he might never meet his grandad..
Pet passports will ceace to exist requiring more time, cost and administration if you want to take a pet out of the country.
Thanks for that brexiters. >:(
johnners - what would you have them do instead? Specifics please.
they are already under attack from the tories and the tory press as antidemocratic ignoring the will of the people.
So what would you have them do?
Even shifting this far has got the attack dogs out - and remember the party is split badly
The Conservatives seized on Labour’s potential support for a people’s vote, with the prime minister tweeting that the party wanted to “take Britain back to square one – betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum”.
and I bet that is seized on in the tory press tomorrow.
So please - I really would like to know what you would have them do?
So what would you have them do?
I appreciate labour making it policy that remain is still on the table would destroy them politically.
But if I vote Labour, what am I supposed to do, trust to hope that they might keep the option open with no guarantee?
That's not enough to persuade me to vote Labour tactically instead of Liberal Democrats in good faith. It might be a wasted vote but it's the only vote I can cast in good conscience.
betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum”.
No, about half of them.
I really would like to know what you would have them do?
I would have them set out a policy, complete with some details as to how it would be implemented, and damn the press. That's what serious political parties do. They hope there will be a GE soon - but are not willing, even at this point - to lay out their stall for scrutiny. **** them. **** them all.
I’m always amazed that the Corbyn fan-boys can’t see the glaringly obvious. He wants Brexit just as much as Rees Mogg and IDS.
He’s supposedly about ‘democratising the party’ until the pesky members disagree with him
Then.... not so keen
If it’d been left to that half-wit he’d have had article 50 triggered the day after the referendum and he’d have galloped off an economic cliff by now in search of some mythical socialist utopia.
i don’t think his attitude has changed one single bit since then. There’s no way on earth he’ll instigate anything that might imperil his precious Brexit, whatever the hell ‘the membership’ decide.
And if you think any different then you’re hopelessly naive.
When what’s looking like a terrifyingly inevitable hard Brexit arrives, he’ll go down in history as the labour leader who helped facilitate turning this country into a far-right neoliberal sweatshop tax-haven by his sheer stupidity, pig-headedness and rank incompetence
Hes as bad as any of the hardline lunatics on the benches opposite him because he’s spent the last two and a half years being their useful idiot
+1 to that
so no one actually has any specifics of what they think labour should do. Its easy to criticise, its very difficult to be constructive
I really cannot think of anywhere else they can go on this. BTW scotroutes - you know sturgeon is reluctant to have a second referendum on brexit - for somewhat similar reasons to those McDonnel has stated.
I really would like some of you that criticise labour for this to actually propose something concrete they could do
Binners - why do you say that when everything Corbyn has said opposes that.
He’s supposedly about ‘democratising the party’ until the pesky members disagree with him
Then…. not so keen
That is just utter nonsense. He has already made changes that reduce the leaders power and has said he will be bound by conference. He has already had decisions taken at conference that he will be bound by that he argued against.
I appreciate labour making it policy that remain is still on the table would destroy them politically.
they have already made it clear remain is on the table.
they have already made it clear remain is on the table.
No, labour have not, they are still ambiguous.
They have simply alluded that they might think about it.
That's not good enough.
What should Corbyn have done?
He should have strongly supported a Remain vote 3 years ago and done all he could to have secured that result as a strong leader.
He sluggishly said that Labour would campaign for remain, which meant his party were keen but he wasn't. As he is a keen Brexiter he now has absolutely no authority in my eyes to attempt to undermine the shambles on the benches opposite. His MP's should be rightly furious. He is as much a Lame duck as May.
Regardless of the protagonists views, in terms of Labour's chances of winning elections, they picked the wrong Milliband and should have selected Burnham over Corbyn.
Apologies if this has already been done before but 2 days ago on his 'Leave Means Leave' Facebook profile, Farage asked the following:
"IF THE UK WERE TO DECIDE TO HOLD A SECOND REFERENDUM ON OUR MEMBERSHIP OF THE EU. HOW WOULD YOU VOTE NOW KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW?"
After 530,600 votes the results stand at 37% to leave, 63% to remain.
And of course, the comments underneath feature Brexshiteers going apoplectic with rage! The oh so delicious irony...
TJ - are you suggesting that Sturgeon and the SNP are playing it coy on policy because they would come
under attack from the tories and the tory press as antidemocratic ignoring the will of the people.
??
Seriously?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">mattyfez
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No, labour have not, they are still ambiguous.
They have simply alluded that they might think about it.
Which means it's still on the table.
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Regardless of the protagonists views, in terms of Labour’s chances of winning elections, they picked the wrong Milliband and should have selected Burnham over Corbyn.
A warmonger and the guy thoroughly trounced by a supposed no-hoper.
have we realised we are all out yet? regardless
A warmonger and the guy thoroughly trounced by a supposed no-hoper.
Correct. A no hoper in the eyes of the electorate who ain't going to win the next election.
The right wing wins again thanks to the useful idiots of the left.
Gotta say, despite the cynicism, from my "drowning in despair at the blind Tory rush to implement leave no matter what" point of view, Labour's albeit non-commital tip of the hat in the direction of keeping Remain on the table is music to my ears.
have we realised we are all out yet?
Holy cow - when did that happen?!? 🙁
Which means it’s still on the table.
Maybe. But ..
But the Rohirrim won through. As did Gondor - makes you think...
OK, so I can see Gove as Gollum and JRM as Sauron, but who would May be?
Sarumay.
instead of Liberal Democrats in good faith
ROFL
This idea that we need skilled workers post brexit is complete bullshit as well, we have a skilled and educated workforce desperately in need of jobs. We need policies to encourage companies to take on skilled workers and train them for the specifics of a job, to make employment more secure and to make sure employees are treated as stakeholders in the business, not to import skills we already have to create a barriers to our young. If anything and if our government actually gave a toss about the UK citizens they need low skilled work to plug the gaps at the bottom.
Germany seems to do this successfully, and although it will make the bexiters red with rage, we should look at what they do and follow them.
betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum
This is the bit I really don't get. This is a problem, but betraying the 75% who didn't vote for this idiocy and who trust their government to work in their best interests is apparently absolutely fine?
johnners – what would you have them do instead? Specifics please.
A slippery bit of pivoting there tj. Everything I've posted recently is questioning your absurd claim that the Labour position is clear while you then go on to state it can go in any and all directions. There's no point discussing that any further with you while you cling to your very special meaning of the word "clear". Your implication that I need to magic up a policy for Labour before I'm allowed to comment that their current stance on Brexit is purposefully vague is pretty desperate stuff but I'm broadly in agreement with scotroutes ^^.
Signpost, not weathercock, as someone or other in the Labour movement used to say.
You lot are debating something that is highly unlikely as no Tory of any type will run the risk of a GE so labours position real or imagined is immaterial.
May will not be ousted unless she threatens a peoples vote/referendum as the bull shitters like Boris and JRM dont actually have the bollocks to take over.
May is sat waiting (desperately) for the EU to throw a lifeline (deal) that she can put to the vote in parliament- probably Norway which if it is supported by Labour and the Tory remainers will get passed but the shit it will cause.....
Its either Norway or WTO
The only thing that's clear about the Labour brexit policy is that any vote for Labour will be taken as support for <whatever Corbyn decides> and I'm don't trust him enough to give him that unqualified support. He could end up doing better than the Tories but that's like saying that while the Tories are going to burn down my house and shed, Labour are only going to burn down the house.
so no one actually has any specifics of what they think labour should do. Its easy to criticise, its very difficult to be constructive
I just want want them to set out their policies and publish them. I mean if they want a GE before Christmas then all of this should be ready and waiting. I don’t care if they are for or against anything but it would be nice to know
This wait and see then follow the crowd is a Boris (Dick) move....
Recent speeches celebrating the fight against thatcher trying to boost support for me is the same as flag waving and shouting sovereignty. Also saying private companies should gift stock to their employees has been used in the past to effectively handcuff employees to companies and get them to work extra hours for free as its now their company...
I just want want them to set out their policies and publish them.
Isn't that why they are having a conference?
According to BBC McDonnell has confirmed that remain is still an option for the possible new ref.
The only thing that’s clear about the Labour brexit policy is that any vote for Labour will be taken as support for <whatever Corbyn decides>
But his party is not run like that. Have you not been watching?
Isn’t that why they are having a conference?
The brexit debate isn't new, the party leaders should be clearly indicating their positions on it, to be agreed or disagreed by conference. I have been hoping that labour would challenge brexit ever since the vote happened (and even before), but they never have, they have disappeared from sight at every chance a challenge could have be mounted. It is a good thing to restore democracy at conference, but that also requires effective leadership to propose a direction that can be voted on. This is the main issue facing the UK, has been for the past 2 years and will be for a generation, it is naive in the extreme to believe that this party leadership, which has constantly fudged the question, will now change track, even if conference makes them they will not fully commit to the policy because they do not believe in it.
And the problem is their failure to challenge has also allowed the repeated lies to go unchallenged, the myths and racism have not been fought with reality and facts, and that has now become unforgivable, and this is why "leave" could still win a second referendum, because the truth has not been spoken in order to appease the ill informed and the racists.
+1 Binners.
As me and others have pointed out here, Labour have actually swung closer to the far right. History repeats itself etc etc, it was the same in the 20's and 30's.
The brexit debate isn’t new, the party leaders should be clearly indicating their positions on it, to be agreed or disagreed by conference.
I think their positions are clear. They don't want to jepordise their chances of getting elected by picking sides. Unsuprisingly the brexit debate has shown that the majority of politicians are more interested in their own careers than the UK as a whole.
the truth has not been spoken in order to appease the ill informed and the racists.
That's democracy for you. This thing that people seem to fetishize as the prefect solution to everything...
Binners – why do you say that when everything Corbyn has said opposes that.
Well I don't know why Binners said that but my interpretation is Corbyn is
in search of some mythical socialist utopia.
Above and beyond anything else... in the same way as the Tory Brexiteers are in search of some capitalist utopia.
Simplistically (at my level of understanding) .. Corbyn seems to want lots of nice things in theory as opposed to being pragmatic. I think he would prefer to live in a world/country where everyone is financially equal .. however low that level is. The picture in my head is not so different to Cuba perched next to the US.
This is just as scary to me in a real world as the Tory brexiters mini-US ...
If I've got all that wrong then .. well Corbyn has a problem communicating what it is he wants for the members and the UK.
If I’ve got all that wrong then .. well Corbyn has a problem communicating what it is he wants for the members and the UK.
You have got that wrong and that is not because Corbyn has a problem communicating...
First they called him a terrorist sympathiser, then a russian spy, then a racist anit-semite. None of those worked so now they hit him with the worst smear of all, being on the side of JRM.
Lets look at the facts. JC campaigned for remain, a lot more enthusiastically than a certain female tory cabinet minister did. He's said continually that he wants a soft brexit in the form of a customs union and complimentary trade deal. He appointed an arch-remainer in the post of shadow brexit secretary. He has 'allowed' (he doesn't have much choice, it being a democracy and all) his party to debate brexit and said he will support whatever the party votes for.
Yes, he got a bit carried away the day after brexit. Since then though he's been staunchly anti-hard-brexit. Are we going to judge his stance on one ill-judged comment after a night of no sleep, or what he's said and done in the subsequent 2 years?
Here's a simple fact that will dictate where JC ends up on brexit. He won the leadership with the votes of new members who were below 30, on a promise to democratise the party. Those new members are pretty much 100% remain/soft brexit. They will have their voice, and he'll follow it.
I think he would prefer to live in a world/country where everyone is financially equal .. however low that level is
But even if he might prefer that in theory, he accepts it's not possible in practice so is prepared to govern on the basis of what people want rather than what he wants. Some people seem to have a huge problem understanding this - maybe because they cannot comprehend the idea of putting their own ego aside? Not sure.
They will have their voice, and he’ll follow it.
Asking, because I don't know - are they able to vote on motions at conference when they are not there (either via proxy or some other mechanism)?
So who was it that called the three line whips in favour of brexit then? The tooth fairy?
So who was it that called the three line whips in favour of brexit then? The tooth fairy?
See my point a couple of pages ago about opposing brexit being political suicide. Honestly, everyone accuses Corbyn of being hopelessly naive and utopian, yet they would have him standing on a platform telling the country that the decision they made was wrong, that he knows better, and that they should be ignored. Much as I wish it would happen, this view that brexit can be reversed is a fantasy. The labour party know this, hence their current position on the subject.
OK but you can't simultaneously claim both that the Labour party policy is decided democratically by the members and also that we can't have the policy that the members overwhelmingly support due to on political factors.
Brexit can't be reversed, brexit does't need to be reversed. Brexit is dead and will not happen.
I think it could happen but not without huge ructions.
In fact, WHATEVER happens from now on there's going to be some huge political issues.
Good one Dave, I hope you feel like a pillock. TBH he probably does.
Yeah, I bet he’s really bothered....
OK but you can’t simultaneously claim both that the Labour party policy is decided democratically by the members and also that we can’t have the policy that the members overwhelmingly support due to on political factors.
No but what you can do is lead the members into a position whereby their concerns about brexit are addressed whilst at the same time not destroying the party's chances of winning an election. That seems to me exactly what is happening. They will come off the fence eventually, and I fully expect it to be on the soft-brexit side, perhaps even with a second vote if the mood in the country shifts decisively towards remain. IMO it's not a question of if, but when.
Maybe they will, maybe they won't, maybe they won't get a chance to do anything substantive but they have already chosen to support the tories several times. I see no good reason to trust them at this point.
No but what you can do is lead the members into a position whereby their concerns about brexit are addressed
He has had a few years to do this, to counter the lies with facts, but he hasn't. And he is just one of the long line of politicians who failed to address those concerns by educating, but instead he has continued to pander to prejudices and lies. He isn't the change he promised to be, and we hoped he would be.
And he is just one of the long line of politicians who failed to address those concerns by educating, but instead he has continued to pander to prejudices and lies.
So is it the politican's job to tell the electorate what to think?
It is an "honest" politicians job to not pander to lies and discrimination, and to actually fight against them. That is what he represents himself as, and before he became leader that is what he did, but his actions as leader have failed to live up to the billing.
but they have already chosen to support the tories several times
Support the tories or support the 'will of the people' (bloody hate that phrase BTW!)? I was also pretty annoyed they voted for brexit rather than opposing it and had the view that they should have strongly opposed it from the very beginning. But I also recognise that it would have resulted in much larger tory majority in last year's election, and as a result have been persuaded that outright opposition won't work if avoiding a hard-brexit is the end goal.
Jesus wept Corbyn far right FFS.
Any chance Corbyn gets he says how good immigration is for this country, how vital it is to the NHS. It was the ****ing Labour lot post Blair but BEFORE he came to power that blindly went along with the tories and UKIPs anti immigration rhetoric.
If Corbyn stands up tomorrow and says "Peoples Vote Now!" What do you think will happen?
To me it gives the Tories the upper hand and an escape route: "Its a shit deal because the EU, we had to do it though because Labour."
By waiting to see what shit deal the Tories come up with Labour can say "Thats a shit deal we can do better or lets have another vote as that deal is too damaging to business/ jobs/ NHS etc"
Well this got interesting - for a change.
Seems there are different perspectives on what politicans should be doing.
Support the tories or support the ‘will of the people’ (bloody hate that phrase BTW!)? I was also pretty annoyed they voted for brexit rather than opposing it and had the view that they should have strongly opposed it from the very beginning. But I also recognise that it would have resulted in much larger tory majority in last year’s election, and as a result have been persuaded that outright opposition won’t work if avoiding a hard-brexit is the end goal.
I don't for a second think it was a given that trying to hang on to some racist or ignorant working class votes, allowed Labour to hang in there. Had they been a bit further left of Blair, but with mass appeal and staunchly supported remain from the outset - they would have 1) Galvanised more young remainers to actually vote in that election 2) Poached the educated middle classes who are horrified by the economic effects of Brexit (I've met a few types of middle class people who could have been poached, those in the financial services who are educated and are essentially kind people who could put aside paying a bit more tax if it made themselves feel better and middle class mothers who are thinking about their children's future) and 3) they could have poached more of the ethnic vote. But ethnic minorities in the UK are often very hard working and financially driven - and whilst many would have voted for an outright remain party - they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Corbyns economics. So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism.
I'll be voting Lib Dem till the day I die, to stick one up to the upper and working classes.
Any chance Corbyn gets he says how good immigration is for this country, how vital it is to the NHS. It was the **** Labour lot post Blair but BEFORE he came to power that blindly went along with the tories and UKIPs anti immigration rhetoric.
He's a left wing nationalist, who says that to capture the inner London ethnic vote. He has decided, for some insane reason that is ****ing beyond me - to try and keep the racist working class vote and the inner London vote at the same time. Everything he says and does, is tactical and thought out - even the anti-Semitism in the party is designed to win votes. Stay low on Brexit, keep some racists/thick ****s, be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink - keep a substantial part of the ethnic vote whilst still pandering to working class white people.
He is trying to be different things to different people, other people in history have used the exact same tactic and have succeeded.
So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism
Well that is just an outright lie!
So is it the politican’s job to tell the electorate what to think?
It is their job to explain their positions and try to persuade people to their viewpoint. Just as much as it is for the opinion writers in the media or think tanks.
As ctk says labour are in a dangerous position. No one is sure exactly what will happen if they come out strongly against. Some polls show some people voting for them but the simple fact is a lot of the labour seats voted out. If they bail the tories out they could get completely hammered in the next election since the tories wont be thanking them for saving them from the mess but would be looking for profit. Likewise the labour "moderates" would dive in and try to pull the party rightwards again.
Yes it would be nice to save the country from Brexit but if that comes at the cost of the party being wiped out?
See my point a couple of pages ago about opposing brexit being political suicide. Honestly, everyone accuses Corbyn of being hopelessly naive and utopian,
See it's multiple things .... does he have the conviction to commit political suicide for the sake of the electorate?
yet they would have him standing on a platform telling the country that the decision they made was wrong, that he knows better, and that they should be ignored.
I would have him on a platform saying they had been deceived... and that whilst he himself is a Euroskeptic that being in is far better than being out in anything other than fantasy conditions, that no type of Brexit remotely possible can possibly provide the promises for everyone. Brexit was and continues to be a scam... it's no different to promising lots of attractive things you can't or have no intention of delivering because once you sign they forget the promises that were only ever "examples"
So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism.
That's a bonkers thing to say IMO.
He’s a left wing nationalist
He's a social democratic internationalist.
be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink
He was defending Jews before I was born. You should take more water with it.
It's only bonkers if you think Corbyn somehow better than everyone else. He uses exactly the same political stratagems as Trump, I don't for a second believe that he doesn't have a bunch of data scientists and PR types who are painstakingly building his support base.
So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism
Well that is just an outright lie!
It's certainly got some truth to it... but really as Womble says
He is trying to be different things to different people, other people in history have used the exact same tactic and have succeeded.
It's almost the same as when the FN in France got a large Jewish vote by the reverse.
Internationalist? Hah! I think he has toyed with being an internationalist. That involves getting along in a world where some people, countries or cultures are not socialist though. We can't have that can we? Hence the EU wasn't socialist enough for him.
https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-s-internationalism-is-a-myth-7537
I don’t for a second believe that he doesn’t have a bunch of data scientists and PR types who are painstakingly building his support base.
I think he'd be further ahead in the polls if he were.
Did you notice that the surge in support at the last election only happened when he started delivering speeches in person?
I don't get pro-labour posts on my FB except directly from his account, because I liked it in the first place. And the Guardian obvs, but they aren't all pro-Corbyn anyway.
It's worth pointing out that Labour policy is only to support a 2nd ref if there is not an election, ie if there is a snap election and by some miracle they win, they will happily impose their own vision of brexit on the country without so much as a second glance.
Just tuning back in.
So - has anyone managed to come up with a single coherent and convincing reason why Brexit is a good idea?
I mean, irrespective of the party political manoeuvrings, this is still the salient point, right?
Everything he says and does, is tactical and thought out – even the anti-Semitism in the party is designed to win votes. Stay low on Brexit, keep some racists/thick ****, be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink –
Some days you wish that it was Jamba you are talking to. Even he never got quite this demented.
It’s certainly got some truth to it…
Umm - no - it certainly hasn't.