Forum menu
This is too funny, kimbers stating that protectionism is a good thing and we should be protecting port talbot workers:
Protectionism can be good, ask port talbot steel workers if they look forward to competing with Trump or Chinese steel imports without tarifs.
And yet he responds to the Trump thread denouncing Trumps steel tariffs:
Meanwhile trump’s steel tarifs have led to domestic prices rising by 40% & soybean prices crashing on fears of China retaliating.
https://www.ft.com/content/28c26592-74a5-11e8-aa31-31da4279a601
-
<b>Production - </b>the EU is the second largest producer of steel in the world after China. Its output is over 177 million tonnes of steel a year, accounting for 11% of global output.
This means the EU wants to protect it's steel making and can service it's steel consumption a lot of the time.
The US has a tiny steel making industry and employs a fraction of those who currently need steel, the US steel makers can't fulfil the requirement for Steel in the US
https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/07/news/companies/trump-tariffs-steel-jobs/index.html
So analysis shows he is risking 100,000 - 150,000 jobs for a saving of about 5,000.
That is the situation, it has nothing to do with the tariff % but all to do with the situation it's being applied to.
The EU can put a lot on imported steel and still be competitive while preserving it's solid steel making capability.
Like many heavy and hot industries they don't cope well with stopping and starting so protection of these is a good thing - unless they have gone.
This is too funny, kimbers stating that protectionism is a good thing and we should be protecting port talbot workers:
I know I'm trying not to laugh at your inability to see a bigger picture or anything in context. This is probably why brexit sounds good to you, you can't see the consequences of an action.
This means the EU wants to protect it’s steel making and can service it’s steel consumption a lot of the time.
The US has a tiny steel making industry and employs a fraction of those who currently need steel, the US steel makers can’t fulfil the requirement for Steel in the US
https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/07/news/companies/trump-tariffs-steel-jobs/index.html
/a>So analysis shows he is risking 100,000 – 150,000 jobs for a saving of about 5,000.
That is the situation, it has nothing to do with the tariff % but all to do with the situation it’s being applied to.
The EU can put a lot on imported steel and still be competitive while preserving it’s solid steel making capability.
Like many heavy and hot industries they don’t cope well with stopping and starting so protection of these is a good thing – unless they have gone.
The EU can't produce enough steel either and has to buy it in, it can't rely on its own steel, just like America can't. According to the latest report by the European Steel Association, the EU’s steel imports from China dropped by 41 percent from January to November 2017 when the higher tariffs kicked in. However, the gap was immediately filled by other countries, with some even doubling their steel exports to the EU.
Yes but we can afford to be a bit protectionist to combat Chinese dumping steel on us (which is what the specific tariff did) without raising the cost of the the products they produce.
The US has a tiny steel making industry and a huge steel consuming industry who have just seen their costs rise making them noncompetitive.
Is that a bit too complicated?.
I get what you're saying but I think whether the US steel tariffs make sense for the US or not is irrelevant in the context of this conversation about EU protectionism. Both the EU and US are playing the same game so I think its hypocritical to take issue with one and not the other.
So the EU is protectionist - is that bad?
Would dickens like to see the Port Talbot steel workers looked after in the event of Brexit? If so, is this not protectionist too?
Both the EU and US are playing the same game so I think its hypocritical to take issue with one and not the other.
Yep your missing it....
The US (Donald Trump who had to use a National Security as an excuse to not ask Congress/Senate who would have overruled his as an idiot) tariff hurts the US more than it helps it which is why it's idiotic, it's then opened itself up to targeted measures from the EU and China which hurt them more.
That is not just protectionist but short sighted and bad for the US. That is the difference.
reading the Quran in translation is always tricky, Who's translation? Did you read the accompanying Hadith? (if not why not?) Given that it's a work that's supposed to be read aloud, what emphasis was placed on the spoken version of ancient Arabic over the written form? Many words of the Hebrew and Greek versions of Arabic translations are of themselves disputed (grapes and virgins for example...) And how "hateful" do you put it alongside the Torah and the Gospels on which it draws obvious comparison. What did you make of the fact that it talks more about Mary and mentions Jesus more than the NT does, do you think that's important?
Just saying "it's hateful" says more about your views on all the Semantic monotheistic religions doesn't it? After all, God is pretty much a total shit in the Gospels to just about everyone...
reading the Quran in translation is always tricky, Who’s translation? Did you read the accompanying Hadith? (if not why not?) Given that it’s a work that’s supposed to be read aloud, what emphasis was placed on the spoken version of ancient Arabic over the written form? Many words of the Hebrew and Greek versions of Arabic translations are of themselves disputed (grapes and virgins for example…) And how “hateful” do you put it alongside the Torah and the Gospels on which it draws obvious comparison. What did you make of the fact that it talks more about Mary and mentions Jesus more than the NT does, do you think that’s important?
Just saying “it’s hateful” says more about your views on all the Semantic monotheistic religions doesn’t it? After all, God is pretty much a total shit in the Gospels to just about everyone…
I don't know which translation it was, I got it on kindle if that helps! No I didn't read it aloud, yes it was obviously in english and no I didn't read the accompanying hadath and don't recall reading about it but don't doubt it exists. I'd read the Koran that was enough to satisfy the interest I had. I read it to understand the religion but I had, and have, no interest in becoming an academic scholar.
I don't make anything of the fact that it talks more about mary than the NT. What am I supposed to make of it? I doubt the bible speaks of true events anyway. Yes I agree to use your words: "God is pretty much a total shit in the Gospels to just about everyone…". Not sure if it was your intention but if you're trying to defend one book by saying its not as bad or comparable to another then that's not much of a defence to me.
I didn't say it was hateful, I said it was full of hate, a slight but important difference I feel.
I'm not willing to debate it on here, firstly because this is about Brexit and secondly I think its pointless debating with people about a book that they have not read (you seem to have knowledge so you have either read it or are pretending to have done). Lots of people will cast judgements without knowing what the hell they're talking about (much like brexit).
Take this distraction elsewhere, perhaps?
Agreed. Feel free to start another thread.
yeah, sorry.
I can't speak for Port Talbot, but did I read that the people of Grimsby have asked for special measures post-Brexit to allow them to continue to supply services to Europe, now they've realised Brexit'll kill their fish-tinning trade? They voted overwhelmingly to leave but appear to have realised they shot themselves in their collective foot.
Even sadder is what would happen if the French - la coeur d’europe - were asked the same question. No wonder they wouldn’t risk asking it.
You mean the French would vote leave?
Yes probably in the same context
sad isn’t it. La reve n’existe plus
Okay so it's not exactly China or the US but the first free trade deals are in:
Yes probably in the same context
So the question is, do you think the French govt should have a referendum?
What, and let the little people have a say? Etes-vous fou?
Have we just pledged 4bn quid in aid to maintain our current trade relationship with the South African Customs Union, plus Mozambique? This Brexit thing's going to be expensive - and to think she mocked Labour for their magic money tree.
Okay so it’s not exactly China or the US but the first free trade deals are in:
Great! That's opened up some new markets to British goods then? Oh, hang on...
Okay so it’s not exactly China or the US but the first free trade deals are in:
Not bad after 18 months. 😂
Have we just pledged 4bn quid in aid to maintain our current trade relationship with the South African Customs Union, plus Mozambique?
That seems to be the size of it. Plus an additional 4bn in "investments". Still, look on the bright side. We've made a deal. Yay. Go us.
As pondo points out Grimsby and many other ports want "free port" status"
Ths fishing community wants help and the Farmers are whining on about needing a "special" deal.
The only folk not whining about not needing a deal post brexit is us SMEs who voted to remain?
Sorry TMH Dickens etc what you mostly talk is the same "accept it thats democracy" argument "will of the people" position.
Thing is the people who voted for Brexit actually dont like the outcomes hence the above whining.
Thats not what we voted for they shout! Well yes it is and if that makes you thick (uninformed, poorly educated, misled - replace thick with any/all) thats not my fault its yours.
But our prime minister has said 'it's not the end of the world' so that's ok then.
So the question is, do you think the French govt should have a referendum?
You're supposed to ask the question to which the answer is “Macron”. I did wonder where I’d heard the words “in the same context” previously.
Original thought is hard to come by these days.
Today Swaziland, tomorrow - the world!!!! Come into the light!!!
So our trade deal approach is to write out mucho big cheques? £1 from our tax take and £1 from the private sector....
Gonna be a doddle closing those deals....
Well done DD. Several lines not a just a quasi-cryptic dig. Felicitations!
Why quote a French “expert” (spit) when would could simply make something up instead. Original but untrue. Much better and in keeping with the tone
now that crash...
What, and let the little people have a say? Etes-vous fou?
Seriously. Should they, in your opinion?
No need. The ballot box is doing it for them. Macron is struggling to get traction on needed reforms to rescue le projet. Public opinion is shifting across Europe and voters are voting. As above look at Sweden
Next month we will see next stand off between the Italians and Brussels where the latter will ensure that the government cannot execute the promises on which they were elected. Democracy....
Whooppee ... we become a part of the South Africa Customs Union .... and it only cost $4Bn.
I wonder what made them think a customs union with their neighbours would be mutually beneficial ?
and while several people sit and beat the meat over the possibility of the EU getting into trouble we all suffer the consequences.
What a wonderful world we live in with extreme and divisive politics coming to the front where consensus should champion.
Where those who want to burn it all down can shout the loudest without providing an alternative
Where we wilfully ignore the interference of foreign powers in our democracy
Sad times
THM, I'm asking you directly. Yes/no/don't know
Agreed the poor Greeks and Italians. Pity we have such little empathy with them. Sad times.
Heres what one of them who was at the cosl face concluded.
From the aftermath of the Second World War to the present, Varoufakis recounts how the eurozone emerged not as route to shared prosperity but as a pyramid scheme of debt with countries such as Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain at its bottom. Its woeful design ensured that collapse would be inevitable and catastrophic. But since the hurricane landed Europe’s leaders have chosen a cocktail of more debt and harsh austerity rather than reform, ensuring that the weakest citizens of the weakest nations pay the price for the bankers’ mistakes, while doing nothing to prevent the next collapse. Instead, the principle of the greatest austerity for those suffering the greatest recessions has led to a resurgence of racist extremism. Once more, Europe is a potent threat to global stability.
excuse the lack of originality but I didn’t experience the Greeks suffering so am leaving it to an expert who did.
Yes.
I said from the outset (go check) that the referendum was a silly idea when we don’t know what we are voting membership of. For the euro to have any chance Europe needs to have full fiscal and political union. The people don’t want that. Clearly. Hence their wishes must not and “cannot” be heard. C’est interdit. So my “yes” is irrelevant - as macron said it won’t happen because they know the answer
Sadly for the elites the little people are speaking up and they are being heard. And the populists are tapping into this while “we” prefer to ignore,abuse and blame them. See above
Who are the real thickies ???
I seem to remember someone insisting that we not confound membership of the EU with membership of the euro.
Naah, can't have been...
Okay so it’s not exactly China or the US but the first free trade deals are in:
Crack out the Champagne substitute!
Exports to the UK from the EU, about £350bn.
Exports to the UK from the whole of Africa, about £17bn. (I think, half-remembered from something I read the other day.)
And all bar Mozambique (11 billion GDP, less than 0.1% of UK GDP) are existing deals we already have. It's cost us a £4bn backhander to stay exactly where we are. Y'know, a quarter of that 350m/week we were going to be giving to the NHS.
I wonder what that same deal with the US will cost us? China? The rest of the world? Anyone care to make a #projectfear prediction?
More from our favourite motorcyclist:
On the European continent, a far worse drama was unfolding due to the EU’s odd decision, back in 1998, to create monetary union featuring a European Central Bank without a state to support it politically and 19 governments responsible for salvaging their banks in times of financial tumult, but without a central bank to aid them. Why this anomalous arrangement? Because the German condition for swapping the deutschmark for the euro was a total ban on any central bank financing of banks or governments – Italian or Greek, say.
Incidentally,
Where the hell is all this money coming from?
It's from the Brexit dividend. Do keep up.
Silly me.
Alternatively; aid, private sector (note which CEO was with her), quasi privete sector eg CDC investing £3.5bn as part of proposal, increased support from U.K. export finance etc
it’s all on the gov website as before as an alternative to mistruths.
Borrowed from the other side?
It's not like they had a problem with huge unfunded promises before
lol, even I have to laugh at the sad figure of Mrs May going round third world countries drumming up business. But hey its a start..
The £4 billion I believe is just coming out of the usual aid pot so no more money being spent although I may be wrong.
The £4 billion I believe is just coming out of the usual aid pot so no more money being spent although I may be wrong.
Source?
So we are using our aid budget to get what we already have? Quality. Who gets to miss out on aid so that we can splash the cash somewhere else?
At least that should keep the current predicted spending down to 10-15 years worth of EU membership
Until the next time she needs to visit the magic money tree, or maybe she knows by the time the cheque gets cashed she will be hobbling through a field of wheat before writing her memoir.
Okay so it’s not exactly China or the US but the first free trade deals are in:
lol, even I have to laugh at the sad figure of Mrs May going round third world countries drumming up business. But hey its a start..
Good start!
Next stop Middle East, Asia and then ASEAN.
We in ASEAN particularly welcome UK to trade with us anytime.
😀
The only folk not whining about not needing a deal post brexit is us SMEs who voted to remain?
UK can always sell their machinery to me if they wish or to partner with me to get to China. UK cannot or may not be able to compete with China directly in terms of cost but we, in ASEAN, can.
Great! That’s opened up some new markets to British goods then? Oh, hang on…
Yes, we want British goods but only if you are willing to trade with us fairly.
To be fair I think there is a difference between actual aid, and commercial investment. It may be that the EU prevented us from direct investment in the past - can anyone confirm or refute that? Are we able to invest differently now?
The links between this story and Brexit/EU on both sides are tenuous at best.
Whooppee … we become a part of the South Africa Customs Union …. and it only cost $4Bn.
Do we get FOM there then ?
The links between this story and Brexit/EU on both sides are tenuous at best.
What the bold and decisive levels the government is going to so that we can secure our place on the world stage again.
Or where the money has come from? Given she just gave the Chancellor another slapping down for talking again, who can we trust to give us accurate numbers?
It's a shame we used the term Omnishambles so early in the thread.
Fertile ground for your approach mike. Carry on...
As before a simple look on the gov website gives the answers but they don't fit your narrative I'm afraid
Got the link as nobody has managed to post one yet
Yes thanks. Takes about 20 seconds on google. You would think people would check facts first wouldn't you. Otherwise they may draw incorrect conclusions and mislead voters such as those poor people in Port Talbot
good to follow up learning about PDIG and others involved and what they do too
well just post it then, you obviously have it to hand there. Want to make sure I have the right one
And forget about Port Talbot for the moment, tell me I'm wrong about Grimsby.
It may be that the EU prevented us from direct investment in the past – can anyone confirm or refute that?
I expect you mean EU State Aid vs WTO Subsidies which is where government makes direct investment to support their own industries - think every nations defence industry apart from our own. WTO rules on subsidies are a lot less stringent however, it is likely that any trade agreement with the EU will involve conformance with State Aid so we won't get away from it. Instead, we pile cash into kleptocracies in Africa - yay, just what everyone wanted!
No, I will let you take your own responsibility for it. Good luck.
Twenty seconds it took. Bon chance.
You condemn yourself, THM.
To finding the facts first? Yes. Guilty as charged
No, I will let you take your own responsibility for it. Good luck.
But how will I know I have the same link....
Sorry Teacher
Is there a link where they are publishing the current Brexit Bill with all the known and unknown costs including estimates of what this will cos the tax payer?
The title, the date and the link to May's speech (full text available) are all giveaways. The speech is a bit long winded though
i doubt a link to unknown costs is available thoughh
labour don't like it. You can read their reaction too
Now here is a thought, post a source and make a comment, start a debate, join the conversation.
Or join the Do your own research team
Grimsby - 48% still back leaving with no deal, a further 6% back leaving based in May's deal. Majority in favour of giving up membership. So not sure what you want to comment on, other than your conclusion is not supported by the evidence.
their choice - poll current many months after mikes link from Nov 2017 below
Grimsby?
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/what-free-trade-brexit-exemption-789237
Seafood should be given special free trade status after Brexit to ensure Grimsby’s industry is not damaged, MPs have been told.
Key figures from the wider Lincolnshire food industry were in Westminster last week to provide the Government with their vision for meeting the challenges presented by the UK leaving the European Union.
Grimsby’s seafood processing industry faces a number of Brexit-related issues – from a potential 20 per cent labour shortfall to delays in fresh fish reaching the town’s factories, as well as import fees.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/brexit-exemption-sought-grimsby-seafood-736984
Calls by industry groups for special status as they see how screwed they are and the people who work for them.
The industry and its big name producers, such as Young’s and Icelandic Seachill, imports 90 per cent of the fish it processes for retailers, restaurants and fish and chip shops.
Simon Dwyer, a spokesman for cluster group Seafood Grimsby & Humber, called on the Government to look at bestowing free trade status on the ports of Immingham and Grimsby in relation to seafood.
a further 6% back leaving based in May’s deal.
Has she written that down yet? Well apart from the version with the red lines crossing things out.
What's your source for the Grimsby polls, THM? Or are you refusing to link anything now?
The same as mike's only current today not from last year
Any news on Mays plan?
Also if you click in the title bar, ctrl c then Ctrl V in the text box you can post a link to what you are talking about. Makes life so much easier
24/7 news unfortunately. Can't get away from it.
Or are you refusing to link anything now?
The troll has much noise to make, but nothing to contribute.
The same as mike’s only current today not from last year
How do you have the chutzpah to criticise people for slinging "thicko" insults then post in as obtuse a fashion as you possibly can? Can we not just discuss this like grown-up, adult-type people?
a further 6% back leaving based in May’s deal.
Thats almost as good as amongst Tory MPs.
Thats almost as good as amongst Tory MPs.
Do we know which ones this week?
Grown up adults don't persist making absurd exaggerations. Like brexiters you can't debate that stuff
if it needs simplifying
poll was sourced today from Grimsby Telegraph - 9 months after Mikes article which gives the good folk of Grimsby plenty of time to reconsider. Looks like they still prefer to end membership of the EU..If you want to go up there and tell they don't understand, feel free and good luck
That's an impressive display of hypocrisy from thm considering how he embarrassed himself over misunderstanding the govt's own economic analyses despite the information being clearly presented on its web site (and easily found in a 20 second Google, though anyone with a passing understanding of economics wouldn't have made his mistake in the first place).
and he still can't link..... It's not that hard.
The 6% what deal are they signing up to? Is it the impossible one or is it the one she has not got sorted yet.
If it turns to be shite what does that mean?
As others pointed out, it wasn't me who misunderstood the government data. But feel free to keep making things up, it ps what keeps this thread going. The truth is far more humdrum
The torygraph ran the same story on the same day about the data. You could write to the editor to fire their economic editor if you like