[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

all hell is going to break loose
Yup. Big trouble coming IMO.

It won't matter the brexies will believe what the right wing press and demagogues tell them: that leaving the EU was the best thing to do and any other problems are obviously the fault of Europeans/Muslims/lefties/curvy bananas/Mr tumble, there will always be someone else to scapegoat.

May is already preparing the way - today she said FOM won't end after Brexit, Davis admitted it last week, reality is beginning to bite but a nrw reality will be spun where it's junker etc to blame......

Do you think the unquestioning Sun/MailExpress/Telegraph axis will carry on their unwavering flag-waving support once it becomes clear that the immigration figures won't be coming down?

My theory is simpler. Yes I think they will, digging the hole deeper and deeper and deeper as Brexit fails to deliver the promised sunlit uplands. Then in due course the blame will be put at the feet of the "traitorous remoaners" for not being fully behind the "will of the people".

A significant part of the leave vote base are the same people who see you on your bike in the street, drive straight at you, and at the collision blame you for getting in their way. These are not the kinds of people who admit to mistakes or see balance. They see no further than they want what they want. "End of." as they charmingly put it.

Pretty damn scary.

Oh God ... the Remoaners and their superior intellect and sage-like predictions of the future 😕

Step back from your skinny-latte`s and crystals balls of doom ... if what gets delivered isnt what was ordered; it gets cancelled ... and a new order is put in.

The Brexit result wasnt what those in the EU wanted - and the result has been used to sow division ever since.

Some peoples glass is always half empty; why not focus on what good may happen - instead of what bad could?

Hopefully I'm just being a pessimist. But I don't buy "can't happen here". Can happen anywhere.

Which gives me an excuse to add to the playlist:

You lucky people.

I think it all comes down to your fundamental attitude.

When you have problems, do you look for a solution or look for someone to blame?

The general population is full of both types in all walks of life.

if what gets delivered isnt what was ordered; it gets cancelled ... and a new order is put in.

That is pretty funny. You want the lunatics to run the assylum? 🙂

binners - Member

all hell is going to break loose

Don't worry, when it does it'll be Wanton Criminality and Mindless Opportuniest Thuggery and we can break out the rubber bullets and hanging judges.

Thing is, these things don't seem to be that rational. When politicians make ridiculous promises then let you down, logically you'd stop listening to those politicians. Maybe you'd listen to the other guy- that guy you didn't vote for because he didn't promise you the world. But actually people just seem to want more ridiculous promises, and you can respond with "well we would have done it but The Enemy stopped us" and all that.

So if this does go the way it looks like it will, it's just as likely to be "it's the EU's fault" and "it's the Enemies Of The People's fault" and never Theresa May and the three brexiteers' faults for being ****ing spoons.

Same in the states- in fact it's already happening, the Trump administration moved into Blame The Other Guy mode before they'd even [i]started[/i] failing. Traditionally it's a response to failure but more recently it's become a first preference.

I'm pretty sure I'm stating the obvious but the last page or so seems to have overlooked all this.

mooman - Member

if what gets delivered isnt what was ordered; it gets cancelled ... and a new order is put in

I'm sorry, what?

Some peoples glass is always half empty; why not focus on what good may happen - instead of what bad could?

Because its pretty self-evident to anyone with anything between their ears, that unless you're one of the usual 1% who did quite nicely out of the banking crisis, while everyone else got bent over, then there's nothing good conceivably going to come out of this forthcoming crisis either.

As the months ahead go by this will become more and more apparent to even the most terminally dense

The end of FOM was always going to be a nightmare for industry, EU NHS staff are already leaving n droves, still huge shortages across the construction sector, farms dependent on migrant labour.

It was just a xenophobic fantasy that immigration would reduce let alone end. (Interesting that even 'Go Home van' May is now saying it.

The extra cost and bureaucracy of arranging work visas for a potential 3million EU workers and families here is the kind of logistical details Brexies like to wish away.

And right on cue up steps farage to shirk responsibility

I’m sorry to say that the response to the triggering of article 50 has been all too predictable. Already you have made a series of demands that are not just unreasonable but, in some cases, clearly impossible for Britain to comply with. You began by telling us that we have to pay a bill, a cool £52bn, a figure that has clearly been plucked out of the air, effectively a form of ransom demand ....

You are behaving like the mafia. You think we are a hostage. We are not. We are free to go.

I'm so ****ing glad I live in Scotland

Some peoples glass is always half empty; why not focus on what good may happen - instead of what bad could?

Can you give us some examples of the good that you think may happen?

There's being optimistic then there's being hopelessly unrealistic.

By comparison Guy Verhofstsad gives a speech that illustrates just how poorly served we are by UK politicians.

Perhaps it was always impossible to unite Great Britain with the continent. Naive to reconcile the legal system of Napoleon with the common law of the British empire. Perhaps it was never meant to be.

But, our predecessors should never be blamed for having tried. Never. It’s as important in politics as it is in life: to try; new partnerships, new horizons, to reach out to each other, the other side of the Channel. I am also sure that - one day or another - there will be a young man or woman who will try again, who will lead Britain into the European family once again. A young generation that will see Brexit for what it really is: a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, stupidity.

Let’s not forget: Britain entered the union as the ‘sick man of Europe’ and - thanks to the single market - came out of the other side. Europe made Britain also punch above its weight in terms of geopolitics, as in the heydays of the British empire. And we from our side must pay tribute to Britain’s immense contributions: a staunch, unmatched defender of free markets and civil liberties. Thank you for that. As a liberal, I tell you, I will miss that

Some peoples glass is always half empty; why not focus on what good may happen

Yeah still waiting on that one....

I'd just like to say that I was delivered some very small and oddly shaped bananas by Ocado this week.
I compared them to the pre-A50 bananas from the week before and they looked quite odd.

The strangest thing is this isn't me taking the mickey - it actually happened.
Equally I accept it must just be a strange coincidence - the banana bill has not been re-peeled yet. (Ok I couldn't resist one pun).

mooman - Member

Some peoples glass is always half empty; why not focus on what good may happen - instead of what bad could?

😆
Are you new here?

binners:
What happens then? Who knows? Its impossible to predict anything at the moment. But I very much doubt it'll be good.

Yep, and the complete absence of an effective opposition limits the democratic options a bit!

Maybe we'll see a new party arise? Or a LibLab coalition?

mooman:
if what gets delivered isnt what was ordered; it gets cancelled ... and a new order is put in

I'd like some clarification on that too?

Are you suggesting that the public should have some sort of vote on whether they accept the proposed deal once it has been negotiated?

"You think we are a hostage. We are not. We are free to go."

We might be hostage.

Yes we can leave simply by changing our law and ceasing to pay our fee, but who knows what sanctions the EU could impose if we just go (in their view) owing them cash.

I've always thought we weren't leaving - we'll get bogged down in decades of complex negotiations and then it'll just not happen.

Must be a laugh going for a meal with Farage

"Your bill sir"- eh, sorry, "L'addition, monsieur", since he'll be living in France
"THIS IS A RANSOM DEMAND!1!!"

The end of FOM was always going to be a nightmare for industry, EU NHS staff are already leaving n droves, still huge shortages across the construction sector, farms dependent on migrant labour.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/01/saturday-jobs-brexit-labour-shortage-young-people ]It's ok, there's a plan. It's called child labour.[/url] Quite how they're going to get 15 and 16 year-olds to do skilled jobs like nursing and construction is anyone's guess, but I'm sure it'll all be sorted with some positive thinking and good old wartime make do and mend spirit!

Yeah daz I saw that. Hilarious. Seems the Brexit rescue plan is what I used to do at the greengrocer's for a tenner a day 35 years ago.

I presume we'll be putting that child labour to appropriate use by re-opening the pits, and firing up the Spinning Jennies as we return to the glory days of Empire?

What happens then? Who knows? Its impossible to predict anything at the moment. But I very much doubt it'll be good.

if what gets delivered isnt what was ordered; it gets cancelled ... and a new order is put in

I'm sorry, what?

I presume we'll be putting that child labour to appropriate use by re-opening the pits, and firing up the Spinning Jennies as we return to the glory days of Empire?

Each infantry platoon will be gaining a drummer-boy.

The Spanish are quaking already.

sbob - Member
mooman - Member
Some peoples glass is always half empty; why not focus on what good may happen - instead of what bad could?

Are you new here?

yeah sbob has no ideas either 😉

Molgrips I could not find a source tonsee Fallon's quote in context. By the way IMO we need full exit checks like other countries do as otherwise you have no idea who is still here/overstayed their visa etc.

From Fishing for Leave

A graphic illustration of the criminal waste EU legislation causes.

Tons of prime sea bass discarded dead because they are the "wrong" species.

Quotas and species bans force fishermen to discard, in many cases upto 50% of the fish we catch equating to around a million tons annually.

Quotas are a disaster economically, socially and operationally. They will never work in Britain's rich mixed demersal fisheries.

They lead to increased mortality as vessels have to catch more fish to find what they are allowed to keep whilst the system is financially crippling the industry.

If the EU was to make off with 59% of our livestock and made us shoot half our cows and sheep to leave them dead at the side of the road there would be national uproar.”

The discard ban will result in ‘choke species’, when a vessel or area runs out of the lowest species all fishing must stop as they will inevitably catch it whilst continuing to fish for others. This will decimate the British fleet Brexit or not.

We must scrap the cause, quotas, not ban the symptoms, discards.
The only way to manage mixed fisheries is with days-at-sea system, where vessels are given a set number of hours out on sea and can keep everything they catch.

This would mean vessels would catch less but land more meaning less environmental impact and greater industry profitability.

A minority of politicians and vested quota interests claim effort control will lead to vessels targeting the highest value species, but Fishing for Leave have devised a system to avoid such actions.

We propose a system of flexible catch compositions with a time penalty system to encourage vessels to avoid particular species.

Vessels will have to aim for a certain percentage of their catch to to be of a certain valuable species, however they needn’t discard if this percentage is exceeded.

They can sacrifice time at sea in compensation - time they will no longer need as they have a viable catch aboard.

In the case of the scandalous dumping of the sea bass or Cod in these pictures. Our system would have allowed the skipper to keep all this fish.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/787557/eu-common-fisheries-policy-125000-dumping-sea-bass-fixed-quota-allocation-fishing

linking from the express must be true!
[img] [/img]

its a good job our brexie MEPs have been so dedicated to championing reform

ver the three years that Nigel Farage was a member of the European Parliament Fisheries Committee, he attended one out of 42 meetings.

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/farage%E2%80%99s-voting-record-fishing-%E2%80%98makes-mockery%E2%80%99-new-election-poster-20150408

if only rather than flouncing off Britain had chosen to stay and improve the regulations....

[b]Will somebody not think of the sea bass?!![/b]

A minority of politicians and vested quota interests claim effort control will lead to vessels targeting the highest value species, but Fishing for Leave have devised a system to avoid such actions.

We propose a system of flexible catch compositions with a time penalty system to encourage vessels to avoid particular species.

Vessels will have to aim for a certain percentage of their catch to to be of a certain valuable species, however they needn’t discard if this percentage is exceeded.

Lucky we're doing in with all the red tape, eh?

A graphic illustration of the criminal waste [s]EU [/s]legislation causes.

There's always bad legislation. It can come from anywhere. You have to work with it or get it changed. Pulling the country's life support is unlikely to be a solution!

From Fishing for Leave

You can't run a fish protection policy without discard. As soon as you allow high value fish that have been 'accidentally' caught to be sold, every fisherman will simply go after high value fish.

If you somehow impose an alternative penalty for catching certain fish that's worse than forcing them to discard they'll chuck the fish over the side which is... discard.

The only way to run a fishing industry that protects stocks without discarding anything is to nationalize the industry and set a policy of which fish fishermen can go after. Then you'll know that any high value fish they 'accidentally' catch really were caught accidentally and you can allow those to be sold.

Playlist again.

Can't believe we haven't had Bob Marley's excellent album Brexodous yet.

[url] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/05/woman-found-dead-in-bristol-feared-deportation-after-brexit-vote [/url]

RIP.

The 'red lines' document just passed by the European Parliament (and voted for by the SNP too .. fascinating).

Point 27 leaves some hope.

27. Takes note that many citizens of the United Kingdom have expressed strong opposition to losing the rights they currently enjoy pursuant to Article 20 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union; proposes that the EU-27 examine how to mitigate this within the limits of Union primary law whilst fully respecting the principles of reciprocity, equity, symmetry and non-discrimination;

Matt - probably not related, but there are some interesting winds at the moment.

Spanish centre-right MEP Esteban Gonzalez Pons accused the UK government of "preventing Scotland staying part of Europe while at the same time they want... Gibraltar to continue to be a tax haven".

So Farage says he's not optimistic about the brexit talks. He should think more positively and stop all this doom and gloom.

You can't run a fish protection policy without discard. As soon as you allow high value fish that have been 'accidentally' caught to be sold, every fisherman will simply go after high value fish.

If you somehow impose an alternative penalty for catching certain fish that's worse than forcing them to discard they'll chuck the fish over the side which is... discard.

Exactly.

I have a mate who has a degree in Marine Biology and ended up working on the boats inspecting the catch. Blimmin awful job by all accounts as he was generally despised by the crews who saw him as someone there to stop them making money (from illegal catches) rather than someone who protects their long term livelihood by trying to keep the fish stocks sustainable.

(he gave it all up in the end and became a professional puppeteer!)

So Farage says he's not optimistic about the brexit talks. He should think more positively and stop all this doom and gloom.

Project Fear, innit.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/05/bmw-strikes-mini-rolls-royce-unite-pension#comment-96152280

Back the the 70's so soon. When do the power cuts start so i can stock up on Candles?

And for a positive spin, anyone planning on setting up a candle factory. Might be a good time to invest in Camping Gas equipment as well.

outofbreath - Member

You can't run a fish protection policy without discard. As soon as you allow high value fish that have been 'accidentally' caught to be sold, every fisherman will simply go after high value fish.

If you somehow impose an alternative penalty for catching certain fish that's worse than forcing them to discard they'll chuck the fish over the side which is... discard.

There's alternatives but they're not easy- one approach is to have price controls whereby fish can still be landed, and can be sold at a price that makes it worth not just discarding (ie, make it equal to the opportunity cost of bringing them in) but not worth intentionally catching them. But that's easy to say, not easy to do, and it'd mess with the pricing market massively.

Discards are a terrible idea but they're a less terrible idea than having a profitable business in landing prohibited fish. Fishing For Leave's suggestion could concievably work but it has the same issue as price setting- getting the balance between making it punitive (so that people still discard) and too weak (so that it's profitable to catch the prohibited fish then tie up) might just not be possible- and the problem is, the industry would cry havoc if it penalises them and take the piss if it doesn't.

(he gave it all up in the end and became a professional puppeteer!)

Muppet.

(I'll get my coat)

Matt - probably not related, but there are some interesting winds at the moment.

Unravelling before their eyes.

“Undemocratic” EU’s Parliament, to, err, democratically vote on Brexit deal.

https://twitter.com/europarl_en/status/849601776089276416

😉

(that would be the same deal our PM doesn't want our Parliament to vote on).

jambalaya - Member
We are a small scale seller of weapons to Saudi. French are 4x us and US bigger again. Let me find some numbers

We're not small scale just because other countries sell more (we're second highest in EU)