[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

a socialist/liberal/democrat who believes that Govt is there to serve it's people and help them to a better life,

Left wing haters, right wing haters. Its a wonder some of you can get on plane to go on yer hols.

Your can blame the right for Brexit, the Tories have anyways been split over Europe:
jingoism Vs economics

You can also blame Camerons inability to control his party and run such a clueless campaign
UKIP is just a particularly unpleasant wing of the Tories after all, it's stuffed full of failed Tory MPs and ex councillors

The Tories have also spent years capitalising on decades of nationalistic rubbish in the sun, mail, express, telegraph that has ranged from the ridiculous (bananas) to nasty (dehumanisation of immigrants)

Then there was genius George Osborne, years of crushing austerity, hundreds of libraries, sure start centres closed, social care destroyed, NHS acutely understaffed, attacking the disabled with fit for work and bedroom tax
while the middle class right wingers revelled in the shirkers losing their benefits,
there was huge resentment growing.
That's why Osborne's threat of a punishment budget meant nothing, he'd been handing them out ever since he became chancellor and guess what Hammond's still doing it too.

The left are guilty of not shouting loudly enough for Europe and protecting those that the Tories have hurt the most,
but the right own brexshit they are up to their nuts in it without a condom 😐
I'd like to think it'll give them political syphalis

so kimbers how does our colective hero Tony Benn fir into the anti EU right wing story? Is it cause he was a closet right winger being as he was a lordly type?

Yeah Tony Benn was pretty much the Face of Vote Leave, definitely wasnt Johnson, Gove, IDS, Rees Mogg or Farage that stood grinning like buffoons in front of the bus of lies or rent-a-gobbing on newsnight/ QT 🙄

Labour were guilty of being ineffectual but would corbs have had an impact whatever side of the debate he'd come down on?

so kimbers how does our colective hero Tony Benn fir into the anti EU right wing story?

I think you'll find that Tony Benn played a rather small role in Brexit, what with being dead and all.

Meanwhile Michael Howard has got the usual Tory hard-on over going to war.

I think it's because Brexies can't admit that Project Fear was actually right, so they'd rather organise a bit of patriotic killing than admit that they were wrong.

And lo the torygraph steps up.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/02/britains-navy-far-weaker-falklands-could-still-cripple-spain/

Johnson's knowledge of ancient Greek did fk all good when he was side-swiped by Spain, turns out that on joining the EU the Spanish had to renounce their claim to gibraltar, where's the clueless Brexie to step up and tell us that the EU has had nothing to do with peace in Europe?

We've only handed in our notice a week ago and already the idiots are wheeling out the Thatcher / Argentina comparisons

The thing about Gibralter is if you try to look objectively rather than jingoistically then it makes perfect sense that Spain needs special consideration. I t has an enclave that is going to be outside the EU and that already undercuts spain and distorts the Spanish economy. while part of the EU Spain has no option but to put up with it but once Gibralter leaves the EU then it doesn't and all the statement does is recognise this situation

Michael Howard something of the night, something of the stupid

5 days after Article 50 is triggered , there are talks of war over an issue not mentioned once since the referendum .

Going to plan I see .

You do have to laugh though:

Before Article 50: 'The idea of the EU somehow preventing war in Europe is just Project Fear.'

Days After Article 50: 'Let's f**ing bomb Spain'

Ooh, Falklands 2! Wicked, warm up the Vulcans, the Harriers and the aircraft carriers!

I love Howard's follow up though, "“I can see no harm in reminding them what kind of people we are.” Oh we know mate, we know.

I did like someone's point (Telegraph maybe) that as NATO members we'd be obliged to defend Spain against ourselves 🙂

Leave IMO will end up with a less equal country, and listen to the promoters of Leave (including Jamba on here), this is what we will get.

Its not based on any reality we know, but with all extremists it is a statement of intent.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/apr/01/brexit-may-merkel-eu-talks-davis?CMP=fb_gu

Reality seeing in yet ?

?
Anyone?

It's the deafening Silence of the Brexies

Any word on when we recommence firebombing Dresden?

DrJ I mentioned Tony Benn as he is one of the grandfathers of Labour and a lifelong opponent of the EEC/EU.

Kimbers Gisela Stuart was a key figure in the Leave campaign which won the fight to be the official campaign not least as it was multi-party (as opposed to Leave.EU)

Look again at the country map, it was Labour votes which delivered Brexit. Labour constituencies delivered the big wins and every vote counts in a Referendum so those where far more important than in a GE.

Graham the NATO obligations are a bit flakey, its not as automatic as you'd think - do the Spanish pay their 2% ? Plus there isn't going to be a shooting war over Gibraltar. It's tactics to try and protect Spanish fishing quotas in UK waters.

Now the blame game, so when it goes tits up Jamba has already blamed the lefties 🙄

do the Spanish pay their 2%

Are you going to send them a bill??

FFS, unless someone can give some really bloody good reasons for keeping Gib then give it the F back.

Howard's a cast iron ****t.

Graham the NATO obligations are a bit flakey, its not as automatic as you'd think - do the Spanish pay their 2% ? Plus there isn't going to be a shooting war over Gibraltar. It's tactics to try and protect Spanish fishing quotas in UK waters.

Jamby, Indeed, labour should've protected those communities from their idealistically driven destruction by the Tories, they failed. So those communities turned on the latest Tory architects of their subjugation- Cameron and Osborne...
Oh wait yeah, it was definitely all about Gisela Stuart 😆

DrJ - Member

"I think you'll find that Tony Benn played a rather small role in Brexit, what with being dead and all."

That's not whot he told me, he never looks dead when I see him. He has been a bit hard to win over to the independent Yorkshire campaign.

Good advice In FT

[img] :large[/img]

Kimbers I struggled through that Guardian piece. A bizarre interpretation of what the EU documents says which is that the "divorce payment" has to be agreed in part before trade negotiations can strart. Very much NOT an "emphatic no". As for Merkel she faces a summer of electioneering and Podium Policy declarations.

As for EU unity remember the Polish tried to stop Tusk being relected, he's Polish and in theory EU members must approve officers from their countries. Once again the EU bent the rules to suit itself.

Is Michael Howard trying to protect fishing quotas or just trying to make negotiating as hard as possible,?

It's not like there are millions of Brits living in Spain, I'm sure they are thrilled by his disregard for them.

Threatening a war is definitely the best way to start the most important negotiations since WWII 🙄

"This is what the EU does"

It's all the EU's fault.

Cutting and pasting myself from another thread, on the Nato 2%.

It's a pledge made in 2014 to "aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO’s capability shortfalls." Since it's not 2024, nobody's failing to meet it, and though certainly some will, they won't be breaking a commitment either because they haven't committed to spend 2%, they've committed to "aim to move towards".

Anyone claiming NATO members have committed to spend 2% [i]now[/i] is either clueless or lying. (or why not both?). But Donald Trump tweeted about it! It must be true!

I'm impressed with Brexy Tories suggesting unilateral military action.
I thought it would take longer before we got to this level of (what Jamba rightly says is) posturing.
Grow up Michael.

now is either clueless or lying. (or why not both?). But Donald Trump tweeted about it! It must be true!

"This is what the EU does" it fights hard for what it stands for, that is a good thing not a (bad) blame thing. If as a remainer you cannot see point of that article from the FT then there is a little of you would accuse a Brexshitter of being.

@mefty was that FT article in the weekend FT?

Wonder how the FT would see a Free Yorkshire?

Excellent piece Mefty

My third piece of advice is to take your opponents more seriously. Not everyone you disagree with is irrational

Absolutely spot on. Over the 4 years I have been on here there is page after page of ridicule and insult against "the right" / Leave and over than time "the left" / Remain has lost again and again very much IMO as they don't take their opponents to be rational or serious.

DrJ I mentioned Tony Benn as he is one of the grandfathers of Labour and a lifelong opponent of the EEC/EU.

A person can be an opponent of the EU without being a racist knob. Despite recent evidence to the contrary.

NATO clearly refers to the 2% GDP thing (and the 20% equipment expenditure thing) as "guidelines" not hard fast rules required by NATO members.

But in the interests of transparency here are the latest figures:

[img] [/img]

Source:

independent Yorkshire campaign.

zzzzzz.....

Ian Dunt:

We're basically having a national nervous breakdown on the world stage.

😆

"the left" / Remain has lost again and again very much IMO as they don't take their opponents to be rational or serious.

On the contrary - they lost precisely because they assumed the electorate were rational, and would not vote against their own interests. Instead we see again that people do not behave rationally and vote for liars where this fits in with their preconceptions.

One thing struck me from that FT piece that equally appliers to the leavers " stop behaving as if you are still campaigning" Howards intervention is aimed firmly at the rabid xenophobes of all this not at the people who need to be convinced - EU politicians. They will be repelled by it

Remain has lost again and again very much IMO as they don't take their opponents to be rational or serious.

Actually I think quite the reverse. Remain tried to use grown up factually based (even expert forecasts are factually based) against smoke and mirrors from Brexies.
As you yourself have said (and Banks and Farage also stem this) the referendum was not won on rational arguments but emotional ones. In your (and my) opinion.
If the Brexies get a get liberal and lucrative deal for Britain and our friends and neighbours, then I will happily become a Brexy.
But you have a distance to go when sabre rattling is your sole public contribution since A50.
(I take it, Jamba,you agree Howard is an arse for that at least - even Brexy sympathisers I've spoken this morning are rolling their eyes at that one)

"One thing struck me from that FT piece that equally appliers to the leavers " stop behaving as if you are still campaigning"

very true.

We at the Freedom for Yorkshire Campaign are as yet not in this position.
Don't sleep drj why not FYC.

On website dated yesterday

Yep as said many times it's not left vs right

mefty that barticle assumes there wont be a 2nd brexit vote in 2 years

the EU have said they are fine with it

as clueless muppets (Howard) spiral us toward a Hard Brexit Minus

a lot of the brexie wish list was slapped down the day after A50

who knows where the public mood will be after 2 years of gilbralta style debacles

🙂

I don't give a about Brexit now, I'll be fine. Just let me know where I can apply for my EU passport and who to make the cheque out to.

Pedantically Michael Howard only said that May would show the same resolve as Thatcher.

It is everyone else that is suggesting that he was suggesting military action.