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by voting leave we disenfranchise and discourage EU migrants meaning we have a greater reliance on immigration from outside the EU
I don't think anyone has ever disputed that obvious fact, but what's wrong with immigration from outside the EU? If they can do the job does it really matter if their skin tone is slightly different?
what’s wrong with immigration from outside the EU? If they can do the job does it really matter if their skin tone is slightly different?
It matters greatly if you're racist.
If they can do the job does it really matter if their skin tone is slightly different?
Nothing but people complaining about immigration are not going to avoid immigration. It's just ironic in many ways. Like most brexit things it just doesn't have any logic to it
Why shouldn’t non EU immigrants have equal status with EU immigrants?
Why indeed not? Level up, not down. Let's free up migration (as regards workers and their families) with every country as we* sign trade agreements with them… that's what most of our trading partners want anyway… and it's good for us. Win, win. No need to burn our existing agreements and rights to achieve this though, is there? No need whatsoever.
[ *we means either EU, or UK, depending on at what level our trade agreements are made in future … but you'd be mad to bet against this still being the EU, even if our "customs arrangements" aren't quite "a customs union" or "the customs union" or whatever. Note that in several EU trade negotiations, the UK was the main block to loosening rules for movement of workers. Our politicians are the sticking point, with their "controls on immigration" mugs and "tens of thousands" targets… they understand the power of the anti-immigrant vote, and playing to the "legitimate concerns" of the millions of bigots here. ]
what’s wrong with immigration from outside the EU? If they can do the job does it really matter if their skin tone is slightly different?
It matters greatly if you’re racist.
A strong argument to vote leave, then.
If they can do the job does it really matter if their skin tone is slightly different?
Nothing
Good.
Like most brexit things it just doesn't have any logic to it
People in Slough obviously think it *does*. If they want people from their home countries to have the same immigration status as EU citizen why shouldnt' they? It's not racist, it's perfectly reasonable.
Your making the assumption there that people thought that far ahead aren't you.
Your making the assumption there that people thought that far ahead aren’t you.
Well the guy who made the comment about the motives of leave voters in Slough obviously did.
A strong argument to vote leave, then.
No, level up, not down. We do not need to Leave the EU to liberalise our immigratuon rules.
Well the guy who made the comment about the motives of leave voters in Slough obviously did.
and such you are confusing one with many, individuals with groups.
As for saying the logic holds up does it? Has any of it happened, will any of it? Is it not people extrapolating what they want from how they chose to see leave? So far the plan is to give equal rights to EU and non EU by taking those away from the EU.
Slough (SL1) voted out to close the door after having arrived. Reduce further competition. SL4, was one of the strongest remain votes in the country. SL4 is Windsor.
As for saying the logic holds up does it?
I think so. Governments needs immigration to keep the GDP going Northwards to win votes, if we get less from the EU we'll be getting more from elsewhere. But don't ask me, ask Cougar he raised it on this occasion, I just agreed with his logic.
Has any of it happened, will any of it? Is it not people extrapolating what they want from how they chose to see leave?
Quite likely, maybe they're assuming there will be more non-eu immigration because they want to get their extended families here, and maybe you're assuming there won't because you don't want to give up house space for their extended families. Or maybe TiRed is right, or maybe the person who raised the point about Slough people voting to get their families here was wrong. Who knows - working out motives is impossible, and not very helpful in working out what the best course of action is.
We do not need to Leave the EU to liberalise our immigratuon rules.
Perhaps not, but at least one poster thinks that's why they voted Leave in Slough and if he's right they thought a Leave vote *would* liberalise our immigration rules, and we can all follow the logic Cougar stated.
there were 17.4 million different reasons for a brexit vote, problem is you can't reconcile the zero immigration group with the I want more from the asian subcontinent group.
If you took the vote and broke it down to subgroups, you would have a range, From adopt the euro, schengen, through to repatriate everyone whose great grand parents weren't born in England.
The votes closeness would hint that the majority were indifferent to the EU.
Why shouldn’t non EU immigrants have equal status with EU immigrants?
Why shouldn't immigrants from Bangladesh have equal status with people from Birmingham ?
The votes closeness would hint that the majority were indifferent to the EU.
Nail hit in the head IMV. IIRC it was number 8 on the nations priority list before the vote. I suspect in hindsight many UKIP votes were just a protest vote at a time when the LibDems were in government and had therefore stopped being a viable protest vote.
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there were 17.4 million different reasons for a brexit vote, problem is you can’t reconcile the zero immigration group with the I want more from the asian subcontinent group."
I honestly don't think there's a real "I want more from the asian subcontinent group". The simple fact is, that's nothing at all to do with the EU, it's the UK government that sets non-EU immigration targets and priorities. So leaving the EU to increase asian immigration is like leaving the EU to increase the number of bits of pepperoni on your Meat Feast.
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But the idea that this government, or any government in the current climate, is going to significantly increase immigration from the asian subcontinent to any degree is just silly. The current one is working to reduce the number of feepaying students from there ffs let alone workers and permanent residents.
So this "group" can be split nicely into 2. 1) people who don't know wtf they're doing and 2) liars. And overwhelmingly the latter- seeing Farage and other UKIPpers claiming to be pro immigration was hilarious. What had any of these guys ever done for non-EU immigration before?
Just to go back to the mythical output of Eastern Europeans: I work with a lot of Poles in Edinburgh as a joiner. I would say my output was about the same; they do longer days but you do need to factor in the 40@5mins fag breaks a day (smiley face) so roughly the same time spent working. Edinburgh has a desperate shortage of trades folk so the more migrants the merrier IMO.
I can see though how the agricultural sector is different: If you are a native of say Linconshire then the offer of doing really intense, shitty seasonal work at very low hourly rates is not a very attractive prospect particularly if you lose benefit entitlements ; it is more attractive if you've come from abroad. do a shit job for a short time, get paid loads then move on to something else somewhere different. Not great if Linconshire is your home.
The national association of Curry houses supported the Leave campaign as they were told it would increase the numbers of asians chefs coming to the UK .
Their hopes were dashed and they felt cheated when TM visited India and said there would be no more visas for asians to come in the UK .
do a shit job for a short time, get paid loads then move on to something else somewhere different.
Yup. A physically hard and possibly mind numbing job is going to be a lot harder if that is your job for the next fifty years and you wont ever be able to buy a house and get some decent savings vs a few years of that and then head home with enough cash to buy something nice and have enough funds to relax a bit.
When at uni I spent a couple of hours doing hard work for long hours to get some spending money. Would have been a bit harder to motivate without the knowledge it was temporary (a STW example would be the occasional threads about spending a couple of years in Saudi Arabia etc for a ton of cash. Some people decide a year or two of crap is worth it).
For the mythical output I remember the same being said for India IT. I spent a few weeks in India running some training. I actually had a complaint about me when as they were running behind schedule I wanted them to work late to catch up. I had to point out that not only would I be working late doing the training but I would also be putting in several more hours either side of the training doing my day job.
The votes closeness would hint that the majority were indifferent to the EU.
I am indifferent to the EU. I voted remain because I looked at what we get versus what we would lose by leaving and came to the conclusion (strongly) that we should remain.
That decision was made objectively with no bias, no racism and hopefully only a small amount of ignorance.
I am indifferent to the EU. I voted remain because I looked at what we get versus what we would lose by leaving and came to the conclusion (strongly) that we should remain.
And on the other side you would have leavers, who heard the £350M, they need us, easy trade deals and thought all sounds good why not vote leave it won't cause me any harm.
There should NEVER have been a referendum because the majority of the electorate would never put the thought in to be able to give a proper answer, and the question should never have been as broad as stay or go, with no definition of what go meant.
I sort of twigged pretty early that leaving something you’ve been in for 40 years an was going to be a bit of an undertaking and as it appears an undeliverable.
Manufacturing saying they’ll walk and now finance kicking off an donny sort of tarmacing on May biggly(that he was a gs kinda guy) over trade makes you kinda wonder.
Quote from mooman on another thread
The whole Brexit thing is just an amusing game now of winding of the Remoaners.
So on that basis I think we can conclude a) that a competence test before voting would potentially have excluded mooman from the polling booth and b) he’s just trolling and therefore fair game. 😎
Molgrips - no need to defend him anymore.
Serious Brexies with real points to discuss are of course welcome and should be treated robustly but fairly.
Not great if Linconshire is your home.
That's true regardless of Brexit 🙂
Molgrips – no need to defend him anymore.
Don’t be cruel, he liked that high horse
There should NEVER have been a referendum because the majority of the electorate would never put the thought in to be able to give a proper answer, and the question should never have been as broad as stay or go, with no definition of what go meant.
And you had had an excellent chance to make that point in the run up to the 2015 general election, however the government were elected on a manifesto of giving us that vote, a vote that all major political parties have campaigned on at some point over recent years.
Come off it, Cameron promising a ref. was simply because he, or the Conservatives generally, were scared of losing enough votes to UKIP that Labour might unseat them.
This was never about the good of the country, and is simply the result of Conservative cowardice.. They are not trying to stay in power by virtue of being a good government that makes the country better, they are trying to stay in power by defeating thier 'opponents'. Completley backwards.
Come off it, Cameron promising a ref. was simply because he, or the Conservatives generally, were scared of losing enough votes to UKIP that Labour might unseat them.
whats that ninfan and context in a different location 🙂
It's a leaflet from ten years ago.
Totally relevant of course, because every leaver knows that every time there's a vote or a statement made, politics then just stops.
Oh wait no, "non sequitur," that's the term I was thinking of rather than "relevant."
Ooh,Ninny, I wondered where you'd taken your version of the truth and logic too,I'll be looking forward to your posts here,Clip clop.
****'s sake ninfan.
Well the plot thickens..
Apart from wanting to know who your shagging and what Piers Morgan looks like when he's had his head up Trump's arse there might not be a Brexit!
And now there is a secret plan 🙂 Does it involve pineapple? Will it make the Brexigammons explode?
PMs stark warning to rebels as she pledges: I will not let Brussels water down my deal...
is that because the deal is written as BINO with all the special arrangements or because they will reject it straight out.
Serious Brexies with real points to discuss are of course welcome and should be treated robustly but fairly.
Bit bit late for that. Unless you haven’ noticed - you lot have not been been discussing anything on this thread for the last 18mths ... you’ve just been sharing whatever horrible things you can imagine happening with each other ... then elaborating on them together.
*Ninfan is just egging you on for his and others amusement is my guess.
Another good solid point from the brexit camp, never explain what brexit actually looks like.
you lot have not been been discussing anything on this thread for the last 18mths … you’ve just been sharing whatever horrible things you can imagine happening with each other … then elaborating on them together.
True but tbh it’s taken the Gov about 2 years to actually tell us and the eu what they are after so we haven’t really had much material to discuss on and TBH and unless I’ve managed to miss it I don’t think I’ve seen anyone manage to come forward with a list of real positives for leaving that they couldn’t already do if they were arsed(like send people home and blue passports) 🙂
And NI is starting the descent, no assembly and why would the DUP want one when they have the Tories over a barrel? recriminations. pretty obvious that the idiots on both sides would see the prospect of a hard border as a trigger and justification for their ideas.
But since when do brexiteers give a **** about the UK?
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BTW i’m All for what does the country good leave/remain but I don’t currently see leave as ever being a good deal for joe public and the whole things shows just a what jolly escapade it’s been to the Bojos and DD’s who are in it for themselves.
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<div class="bbp-reply-author">kilo
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Another good solid point from the brexit camp, never explain what brexit actually looks like.
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This kinda sums up the contemporary Remain argument.
Following the Remainers defeat - the argument was that the thick, racists, and the old all voted for Leave. There were lots of stories of seeing people walking their pit bulls; their zimmer frames ... or asking for directions to vote for Leave.
Then came the stories of .. "I spoke to a person who voted Leave; and now they want to Remain .."
Now the argument is "they have never given us a plan"
The whole Remain anxiety is built on being ignorant and believing whatever you read.
Another example is the quote of mine that igm gave ... read on its own it does not convey the finer points and deeper explanation the previous posts on that thread detailed.
But hey ... if it fits your own personal bias eh!
Yep. That about sums up Brexies there mooman
Inclusive (if you call including racists inclusive)
Highly commited (to moaning that things aren’t right - including their vote)
But clueless when it comes to a constructive plan.
And convinced that the majority are biased against them - even though they think they are the majority.
Persecution complex much?
And I did read all of your post that I quoted from. Didn’t see any deep thinking though.
Feel free to enlighten me.
Here you go mooman - your full post. Where’s “the finer points and deeper explanation” on Brexit?
More like a bit simple – than simplistic.
The whole Brexit thing is just an amusing game now of winding of the Remoaners. But the Trump thing is just crazy … all those odd types wasting their time protesting against a leader of a different country to the one they actually live.
They are just loons worked up by the media. If they had any substance they would all have been waving their placards when the Saudi Royal visited couple months ago.
Point proven - I did post more; and whilst the other comments may be a tad subtle ... if you read them carefully and try to avoid your ignorance/bias, they adhere to my point very accurately.
Mays “My Brexit or no Brexit “ seems an odd thing to say.
I did post more; and whilst the other comments may be a tad subtle
Just post a neat summary here now will be much quicker and simpler. Will save us missing your point. Unless your post in the other thread was true.
Mooman - without causing us all to have to go through the totality of a thread I merely dipped into at, summarise and thrill me with your wit, charm, subtlety and brilliance.
Go on. It’s your opportunity.
That said, you did make the I’m-just-here-to-troll post that I quoted didn’t you? You do stand by that comment?
Mike - are you me?
Surely if the MP vote her white paper down she will have to resign ?
As a completly bigoted arsehole I too yearn for the green grass of freedom outside the EU.
Our government have provided some fantastic propositions to make it happen . The only problem is that these propositions are so ahead of their time that the real world hasn’t had time to catch up with them.
I want my children to have the very greenest grass.
Many people have made the sacrifices for this county’s freedom . It’s time we did too.
Rather than settle for scrubland outside the EU let’s sacrifice our freedom right now ,to give our children and their children’s children the lushest greenest grass possible.
If it takes 50 years for the rest of the world to catch up with our leader’s brave strategy then I am prepared to make that sacrifice.
You do love your children don’t you?
Why would she resign, it's not like she has taken any real hits or lost any functioning parts?
@igm lol I guess it's the only reaction when somebody posts another magic eye post
The whole Remain anxiety is built on being ignorant and believing whatever you read.
Can you elaborate on this? I believe industry bosses when they say that Brexit is going to seriously harm their business. Because I can see how.
Who did you believe Mooman? Farage? Johnson? What do you think is going to happen after Brexit and why are we wrong?
igm - agreed
Mike
Edit - darn, got my personas mixed up.
I'm so glad we have another Brexit cheerleader telling us that it will work, but that they/government/campaigners don't need to spell out how it might/could/will work… or what even "work" means in this context. And, if it doesn't work, it's the fault of those asking questions about how it could/will/might work. Such fun. Tick… tock… are we ready to trigger A50 yet?
Foe me its obvious why Brexiteers can not articulate a plan they like the rest of us don't have a Crystal ball. Currently the bitching and moaning has failed to move from an internal political turf war to any form of negotiation. Until the exit is agreed no form of future development plan can be decided.
Trade deals outside the EU (that have potential or value) are very restricted (US Canada Aus NZ) all the talk of future growth outside these economies is as we say in the North of England "arse first" as the future growth is in our direction i.e they want to sell us stuff
As has been pointed out multiple times on here we will have to accept chlorinted chicken, cheap lamb etc to gain trade deals with the US etc. If we want a trade deal with India the that would require a fair amount of FOM (they have already stated this)
Our over inflated opinion of our place in the world (based upon in reality London and not Great Britain as spouted by the brexitters) will be the death of us.
Finally we would need a highly motivated, well educated work force with a full range of capabilty from picking fruit to rocket scientist's to succeed and again we are badly lacking in indigenous folks preperared to work 50 hours a week for minimum wage (which will be done away with)
I am sure that there are plenty of people who understand exactly what the plan is however they need to execute it with some stealth.
Mays “My Brexit or no Brexit “ seems an odd thing to say.
it is a little bizarre, might bring the brexiteers in line but I doubt it, it's a veritable incentive for remainers to vote against her proposals.
Just watched last week's Mock The Week where Angela Barnes described May's new paper as 'a Brexit so soft they'll have to thumb it in."
😂
Anyone wondering why Corbyn and Labour are still reluctant to jump on the anti-brexit bandwagon, this might help you understand. For the same reason, this is why talk of a second referendum is stupid. I reckon the people are more pro-brexit now than ever. I've no idea how they are going to square this with impossible practicalities of implementing it, but as ever, the idiots in this country will get what they vote for, and then they'll complain when it all goes wrong.
There is still no majority in favour of any particular method of Brexit… hence May's atttempted fudge… but… that doesn't have majority support either. At some point, someone has to chose something that looks like a true third country FTA, like Canada+, or a close relationship that sees us within the Single Market, and with some kind of Customs Union. When that choice is made, the public will reject it… up to the front benches to decide if hey reject it with a referendum, or a general election. If that general election is after we have left, it's going to get quite dark… and neither of the current party leaders will be PM. Both party leaders are allowing a slow drift towards the close relationship, while tub thumping for Brexit. Who do they think will be thanking them for this in 2022 (if they do make it that far)?
Until some people take responsibility for the perceived EU failings
-IT wasn't the EU that stopped us saving your industry we chose not to
- Immigration has helped we chose not to build the right resources
-We didn't invest in services properly
What this means is also holing people to account from the Brexit side, when people claim an NHS dividend we want to see a breakdown of the costs of Brexit
apparently donny told the maybot to sue the EU not negotiate ! ????
Is't his strategy to Sue loudly but settle out of court in a sealed agreement so nobody knows how much it cost him?
the irony of the UK taking the EU to the ECJ (not sure on what grounds) was probably lost on the orange one
Hey, wait a minute - has that been her plan all along...?
FFS Sue the EU 🙂
🙂 changed my mind.
“My Brexit or no Brexit “
Right now I strongly suspect that’s really a message of “my Brexit or Jacob Rees Mogg’s Brexit”
I don’t need to tell you which one i’d rather have running the show 😉
– Immigration has helped we chose not to build the right resources
-We didn’t invest in services properly
Wait it a minute - who was in charge when immigration was at its highest? Public spending was at an all time high, NHS budget growing at an unprecedented rate, new schools, hospitals and doctors surgeries left right and centre (funded by PFI)
so how can the above allegations be true?
Who said they happened at the same time?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">dazh
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For the same reason, this is why talk of a second referendum is stupid. I reckon the people are more pro-brexit now than ever. I’ve no idea how they are going to square this with impossible practicalities of implementing it,
At this point, brexit is still a mythical beast, and it's still possible to believe it has wings, a horn, and shits butterflies. Once you actually catch a brexit and put it in a cage, and you see it's basically a 3 legged chihuahua, the lovers of wings, horns and butterflies can't believe in those any more (though a load will just seamlessly move to saying they always wanted an oversized barky rat that runs in circles, and that's what everyone else always wanted too)
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[quote=mooman]This kinda sums up the contemporary Remain argument.
Following the Remainers defeat – the argument was that the thick, racists, and the old all voted for Leave.
It's not an argument, it's a statistical fact. The lower your level of education and / or the older you were, the more likely you were to vote leave. The cut-off where there were more leavers than remainers was about age 45. Of course, that's not the same as saying all leavers are thicko gimmers, that's demonstrably untrue.
Similarly, not all leavers are racist. But you can bet your bike that the vast majority of racists are leavers.
Then came the stories of .. “I spoke to a person who voted Leave; and now they want to Remain ..”
Anecdotes aren't really evidence and I suspect that the number of people changing their mind isn't particularly all that statistically significant (people with strong views tend to double-down when their views are challenged). But then, when the difference between the referendum results wasn't statistically significant either...
Now the argument is “they have never given us a plan”
Easily disproven. Show us the plan. We'll wait.
The whole Remain anxiety is built on being ignorant and believing whatever you read.
Did you type that with a straight face and not a hint of irony?
The whole Remain anxiety is built on being ignorant and believing whatever you read.
And the whole leave mantra is ignore what you read and believe in past glory.
Did you type that with a straight face and not a hint of irony?
Obvious Troll is Obvious?
Right now I strongly suspect that’s really a message of “my Brexit or Jacob Rees Mogg’s Brexit”
how can that be the message to brexiteers ? they already want JRM brexit and that would be "My brexit or a No deal brexit" So shes saying if you don't support me you'll get what you want to the rebels ?
Right now I strongly suspect that’s really a message of “my Brexit or Jacob Rees Mogg’s Brexit”
Klunk has it, a no deal brexit would see parliament step in very quickly, the evangelists demanding hard brexit are truly a minority.
It's either in or out.
In maintains the status quo, out is economic suicide. That's always been the reality, despite the political spin.
Politicians are far cleverer than me, and perhaps I am being stupid, but does anyone think that the skull cracking at Chequers and the subsequent white paper would have been better done near the start of the process rather than close the end?
better done near the start of the process rather than close the end?
What a ridiculous idea that is, Davis would then have had something to discuss during his long lunches over there