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Actually, I don't think the EU do have it together - I'm inclined to agree with Deviant.
Here is Juncker, showing himself up to be as big a buffoon as Trump, if they are saying things like this - then we've touched a nerve. Maybe we should press it some more?
I don't really care for the "it's the EU's/Brexshitters fault" anymore, I voted remain - as we'd have been better off in, free movement of people is good for business and it's best to be part of a big negotiating bloc in todays world - but we're leaving.
You'll have to forgive me for not even clicking an express link Tom. They've told more lies about the EU than the STW Brexit Brigade put together.
Btw, is Juncker doing any of the negotiations? I had it that is was some guy called Guy who is the chief negotiator. And I dunno, he seems quite switched on and not quite as easy to paint as a figure of fun. Juncker is an easy bogeyman target and I'm by no means a fan, but he's not the one we'll be dealing with.
I'd hazard that the EU are more than happy for us to constantly satirise him while they go about their business. It's not like our three Brexiteers are anything of which to be proud.
Explain the divorce settlement then?.... The UK didn't sign up to a minimum period, we're not leaving before a stipulated contract date thus incurring penalties....the EU simply wants the UK gravy train to keep running as long as possible....erm, no thanks.
Likewise stating demands and then acting surprised when the UK threatens to withdraw military support for EU member States it's leaving.
Did the EU honestly think the UK would bend over and accept any old garbage tossed our way!?
It's about give and take and the EU are going to have to relearn that as they've been busy playing at being a superstate for the last however many years in a largely unopposed manner..... They'll also have to find someone else to bring in the UK's former contributions, that's not going down well at the moment either.
They're going to have a rough ride of it too.
Btw, is Juncker doing any of the negotiations? I had it that is was some guy called Guy who is the chief negotiator. And I dunno, he seems quite switched on and not quite as easy to paint as a figure of fun. Juncker is an easy bogeyman target and I'm by no means a fan, but he's not the one we'll be dealing with.
I get this - what I mean though is that I think Junckers loose mouth is a good barometer of the fears people are muttering in the various corridors of EU institutions.
I don't read the express either, it was just the first google hit for the video.
They're going to have a rough ride of it too.
You keep drinking the cool-aid. The talk of you and your likes is the kind of talk that'll get us through these negotiations.
Look, it's all just bluff for now - a settlement will be reached. It'll be worse for both parties than what we had before. And we'll have to live with it, unless we change our mind, and I don't see that happening when every failure on our part will be sucked up by Brexiteers as the EU's fault.
Explain the divorce settlement then?
And then explain why we even need it ....its not like we aren't leaving and didn't the headmistress say no deal is better than a bad deal might as well burn down the house and say ....sod it you can stick your bill
I get this - what I mean though is that I think Junckers loose mouth is a good barometer of the fears people are muttering in the various corridors of EU institutions.
Hey, I agree, the leaders of the EU (not just the bureaucrats in Brussels and elsewhere, but Merkel, Hollande and others] are worried about the destabilising effect of Brexit. It'll be interesting to see the balance between protectionism and stability that they wish to find over the next few years. I'd also say that we're in for a long post-March '19 transitional period. There's no way we'll get all this hammered out in two years. That'll be all the EU's fault too.
We're ****ed if we get dumped out on WTO. I'd really urge anyone to read up just what WTO would mean for us - and to lobby whatever politician they can to ensure it doesn't happen.
Explain the divorce settlement then?
We ordered dessert but are leaving after the main course. EU expects us to pay for the dessert.
tjagain - MemberWhoosh - the point you don't want to recognise is that for trade purposes the EU is a single entity.
You still don't get it, and you are entirely wrong.
I do not buy my champagne from the Swedes.
If you don't get that then I am at a loss.
One last chance.
We do not trade with the EU. Geddit?
Look around your house, open your fridge, look upon your driveway. None of the things you're looking at were bought from the EU.
💡
I simply can't make it clearer, and quite frankly have a waning desire to.
You don't buy you champagne from France either.
You buy it from a trader.
Countries are no more single entities than the EU is.
You don't buy you champagne from France either.
You buy it from a trader.
One does not buy champagne at all that is why one has staff....
I thought I'd actually have to do something for my plan to work, but it appears to be starting to work on its own.
Interesting that a load of Brexies have come back out of the woodwork in the last day or so.
Welcome back, it's nice to have your considered, eloquent and erudite points of view shared.
I find myself not always following the absolute detail so if you could be as specific as possible, I'd be most interested.
It's sometimes those details that make the difference between a ludicrous unworkable idea and a thing of genius.
Mike - my apologies of course. Personally I don't much care for fizzy wine, a decent claret is far more my thing.
They'll also have to find someone else to bring in the UK's former contributions
No problem, send a bill as with Norway or Switzerland.
Unfortunately I expect UK negotiators to adopt similar attitudes to the EU hating Brexies on this thread. There really is some offensive jingoistic stuff on this page which is going to lead to a very hard Brexit if used by negotiators.
The Brexit agenda consists of making Britain more competitive through fiscal, social and environmental dumping. It's in the interest of none of the 27 to let those anti-social and unfair practices negatively impact EU businesses with higher standards.
When the Brexie press goes on about selling to other markets, don't forget the EU members can too. When the Brexies go on about buying from other markets, the EU members can too.
A quarter of British food comes from the EU, you buy it so you know it's good stuff. Now consider the American stuff that finds its way onto your dining table.
If we treat the EU as an enemy it will become an enemy.
God help us how did we come to this.
Has no leave voter a clue about 20thC European history?
I despair.
Look at a map guys. We are surrounded by the EU, or closest neighbour in every direction.
We have to get along.
You think the US give a toss about us? Not for a moment.
Who else?
Morocco? Turkey? Russia?
Strewth.
Unfortunately I expect UK negotiators to adopt similar attitudes to the EU hating Brexies on this thread. There really is some offensive jingoistic stuff on this page which is going to lead to a very hard Brexit if used by negotiators.
You think it's bad reading it, you should try living in it.
sbob - simply wrong. Look at the statement in response to the a 50 letter
the EU acts aas one on trade and no country by country nor case by case negotiations are possible legally. We negotiate with the EU on trade - and yes any goods produced in the EU are EU goods. Thats the whole point of the single market
Deviant -they are not being vindictive at all
What they are doing is reaffirming the principles of the single market and pointing out that the westminster governments opening position is simple nonsense.
Unfortunately to many folk including the brits doing the negotiations have taken wishful thinking for the truth and when disabused of this notion cry foul
On cars. the EU will not allow the UK to undercut by either state subsidies as in the case of Nissan or by reducing costs by reducing labour costs or environmental standards. Its not protectionism to ensure no dumping or undercutting by countries not meeting the standards of the single market. Its about ensuring a level playing field for anyone selling into the single market. The UK will still be able to sell cars into the single market just it has to be on the same terms as any other seller in the single market
What we're now seeing (as evidenced by the likes of deviant) is how it feels when you start to lose control of a negotiation. All along the EU has said "Trigger A50 and then we'll talk". All the bluster so far has been from ill informed Brexiteers here while the EU has (relatively) kept counsel. Now that A50 has been triggered, the EU has broken cover and started talking, they're the petulant teenagers?You couldn't make this shit up. It's all the EU's fault. I'd love to live in the world where I believed that - it must be kind of comforting. Bless.
Spot on, its not been helped by the BrexiteersTories running around shouting 'cake & eat it' or May threatening security ties or that we become a tax haven before it even starts.
The EU have been explicit about the common principles of the EU being non negotiable and that we'd have to keep paying for all the projects that we agreed to start, we have signed contracts, eg Horizon 2020
Deviants position is a great example about how uninformed the public still are about the EU and how we interact with it.
Our joke of a press and cynical politicians are to blame for that.
I can cope with chewkw idiocy but not with Tom's stupidity, how do I block him?
Who was it that said something along the lines of:
"Those who don't know history will only repeat it", or something like that?
His lack of education and understanding of the world we live in can only continue to make me believe that Leavers are idiots.
not with Tom's stupidity,
In his defence I think he's only 14 🙂
I'm pretty sure Tom is playing devil's advocate/ trolling on this one, possibly alcohol fueled 😉
"or i could mention the 700,000 Russians who died at Leningrad"
That's an example of a United Europe bringing Peace!?
You love a selective
That's an example of a United Europe bringing Peace!?
No it was an example of nationalism leading to mass murder.
"That's an example of a United Europe bringing Peace!?"
Which lead me to pondering on events during the only other time I can recall Europe being united - 1812?
I think we should probably avoid historical examples to make this point, the only times it ever happened resulted in apocalyptic wars.
But neither Leningrad or 1812 are really example of a united Europe are they?
"But neither Leningrad or 1812 are really example of a united Europe are they?"
They are, and they're the only two times I can think of it happening.
...but even if you think that point is debatable, Barbarossa is an amusingly terrible example given the point being made. It's not like there wasn't any bloodshed at the beginning of the war to use as an example.
As we have just created a direct competitor with a block of 500m people just next door I don't really understand the Brexopaths surprise at the EU's position.
I am not sure what the EU can't do without little Englund if they have a mind to do so be it defence, security, trade or otherwise. I'm sure that Brexit will give them the impetus to put their house in order - then what - poor little Englund surplus to requirements.
Never mind.
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Fair summary? Short and to the point..
They are, and they're the only two times I can think of it happening.
So Hitler 'united' Europe in your view? Whilst I see your point, it not really comparable to the EU is it?
^ that.
But the fantasy of Britain’s past collides almost farcically against Britain’s present.
The Gibraltar thing shows up the down side of being out of the gang. Any beef we have with any of the gang members we have to fight the whole gang now. 😀
Though are we sure that the Art 50 letter doesn't have 'April Fool' on the back.
"So Hitler 'united' Europe in your view?"
Very much so, as did Napoleon. I'm not really sure how you can argue otherwise.
"it not really comparable to the EU is it?"
Nope, the EU was nothing to do with my point, nor did I mention the EU.
But since you mention it, I'll share my Armageddon conspiracy theory: When the phosphates crisis kicks in, don't you think Europe will need to look east for food? And if there's not enough to go round won't that result in something that looks very much like the Nazi "hunger plan"?
And don't you think all the squabbling over the Ukraine might be an embryonic part of that?
We're all 12 meals away from murder & I really can imagine once the phosphates crisis kicks in there could be a war over the food producing areas of Eastern Europe and if so the UK really should be part of any European Political Affiliation so we help in the war and share the benifits, which AFAIC means being in the EU.
Makes you think.
Tax Haven ? Low tax rates have been the policy tool of choice in Ireland and Luxembourg.
Sky News has it right, what we are seeing is [b]Podium Policy[/b] just grand posturing from the EU.
All to be expected, EU fighting rearguard action to try and keep Le Pen out next month and the 27 onside. Contributors don't want to pay more and benefactors don't want to take less. Massive standoff which the EU is trying to paper over implying the UK is going to keep paying. Its quite a laugh, can you imagine if a net recipient left the EU them arguing they should keep receiving money after they've left.
Tusk speaking of unity when his own country Poland tried to block his re-election. Hollande piping up, a man so unpopular he is not even standing for re-election and whose own PM said he is not voting for the Socialist candidate !
You see? ^^^
It's all the EU's fault. jamba's continued postings are a great insight into the workings of a Brexiteer's mind. They tell us all we need to know about how ill-informed many of their positions are.
Straw for sir, Jambalaya
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"Its quite a laugh, can you imagine if a net recipient left the EU them arguing they should keep receiving money after they've left."
That's quite funny. I thought the EU were being quite reasonable asking the UK to honour existing commitments but you're right, the EU wouldn't pay all the 'non-paying' nations to leave, would they?
EU fighting rearguard action to try and keep Le Pen out
FFS Jamba, you live in a fantasy world. Why not blame the EU for Corbyn's failure too? Or Putin for Hilary's failure. Because even if they tried it wouldn't make any difference. What does make a difference is a series of lies dressed up as facts and transmitted by the media (and you) - it's called propaganda, it's dangerous and it really isn't the work of the EU.
If Le Pen scores well it will be for other reasons:
1/ Fillon is a liar and a cheat and in the pockets of the super rich, and 75% of French people know that. Le Pen benefits from the Republicans being a shambles right now.
2/ Le Pen has a following based on her manifesto which appeals to a demographic similar to the Brexie demographic but as the French are generally better educated in terms of history, politics and philosophy that demographic is smaller.
3/ the left is divided and has failed dismally by its own standards over the last five years.
Edit: any betting people have odds for Macron as next president? It might be worth a modest punt.
And yet
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN1002A0
Sure there are plenty of loudmouth nationalist xenophobes tub thumping across the continent
But Wilders is back in the wildersness, Merkels party showing strongly in recent elections.
If France can see sense over lepen then the facists can keep trying to sew division and hate but decency shall prevail!
With the caveat that I'm very much on the remain side....
From a defence perspective, NATO pre-dates the EU and is enormously more potent and relevant militarily due to Uncle Sam! NATO, and nuclear weapons arguably, are the reason for the relative peace since WWII. EU for trade, NATO for security. We're not going to go to war with our former EU partners in some kind of post-imperialist Brexie wet dream because they're still our NATO allies, and the principle of collective defence is just as relevant today as it's always been; no single European nation is much of a match for Russia imo.
Incidentally, I commented on the Daily Mail's BTL bit (I couldn't help myself) when others were expressing similar bellicose sentiments. I wondered whether they'd be joining us serving military in the event? Probably not, those who have to fight wars are usually less keen to call for them! I'm sure there are EU nations with Mail equivalents though, with similarly unhinged comments; the shouty nutters will hopefully be safely ignored by the grown-ups!
Our only mistake in the past was actually getting involved in their idiotic wars, when we could have sat on the sideline and watched with utter bemusement.
After which we have ended up speaking German.
After which we have ended up speaking German.
Nonsense. GB could have opted out of WW2, just like the USSR did.
Oh.