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Saved by Gordon Brown on one and the nations biggest loser thanks to the other.
I'm sure that referendums are his favourite things ever!
I see A50 is to be triggered on John Majors birthday, those Torys are lovely aren't they.
The Referendum delivered a massive "no thanks" to
No, lets get this straight the referendum didn't deliver any resounding mandate, hence why this debate keeps on going. a small number of racists and xenophobes aided and abetted by various other factions have managed to obtain a tiny majority.
Scotland are now seeking another referendum, polls in Ireland are showing similar. The NHS et al is screwed, there is no more money to cover running the UK, but thats all right we have regained control, which incidently we never lost or can't regain because of international treaties.
What ever deal comes out of this we have pissed off half the population of the UK, damaged relations with Europe etc.
[quote=mrmo ] .........
What ever deal comes out of this we have pissed off half the population of the UK, damaged relations with Europe etc.
but... and it a big BUT. There is a group of businesses and individuals, together with their cronies and associates who stand to do very well thank you very much out of political upheaval.
Same groups who do well whenever things get tough or areas are ravaged by war. Be they, robber barons of old, the mafia of the last century, arms dealers, construction firms, media moguls, gold and equity dealers, religions even.... If you ever want to see the bigger picture in any unfolding world event, follow the money and/or the power play. The will of the people is often just a manipulation by powerful forces. How many true grass roots revolutions have there ever been that truly benefited the average man on the street long term?
And if you are a "normal" person trying to make the best of your lot? Tough. Screw you. you are just collateral. And it has always been so.
[i]No, lets get this straight the referendum didn't deliver any resounding mandate, hence why this debate keeps on going. a small number of racists and xenophobes aided and abetted by various other factions have managed to obtain a tiny majority.[/I]
+1 I was just going to write the same thing.
Also on Question Time last week no one pulled up one of the panel when she uttered the same kind of thought - surprised they couldn't hear me shouting at the telly 🙂
Should be triggered on April 1st
+1 WELSH FARMER
Poor will become very poor
Richmond will become richer
The rest will struggle on
The Referendum delivered a massive "no thanks" to both of those treaties
It did no such thing. People voted against bendy bananas and foreign people. Of course, bananas are meant to be bent and we need foreigners, but whatever.
If the referendum had been on revocation of specific treaties, you'd have had far lower turnout!
But as above - nothing was massive. It was a very slim 'no thanks' and it was 'no thanks' to all sorts of different things. You have to appreciate that Jam.
How many true grass roots revolutions have there ever been that truly benefited the average man on the street long term?
Chartists
Peasant's revolt
Labour movement
English Civil War
Maybe?
So we've got 2 years of stumbling from disaster to disaster, towards electoral armageddon. Hurray!
What are the chances of any of the [s]political pygmies[/s] master negotiators and diplomats about to begin the negotiations, seeing them through to the end? Or even making it 6 months in?
So what've we got to look forward too then?
10% corporation tax rate? Or maybe its complete abolition?
The end of a benefits system 'we can no longer afford'?
An influx of Russian gangsters getting their dirty money laundered in our further deregulated banks?
The end of any meaningful environmental controls?
The abolition of the minimum wage?
The end of maternity pay, sick pay, and anything else that prevents employees being bent over?
No controls whatsoever on immigration, as they'll all be required in our bold new sweatshop economy? (the biggest lie of the lot!)?
All dead certs in my book! Put your house on it
Molgrips had the Remain campaign economic scenarios looked like the reailty we have experienced the Leave win would have been larger. Project Armageddon was effective in frightening people but not effective enough.
Those two Treaties where key to the Union / Superstate project and created equal rights for all citizens, combine that with big EU expansion and you've created the problem. I noticed yesterday the EU flag flies next the Tricolour outside French hospitals - its real Superstate stuff - a subliminal attempt to erode the nation states.
Of there where Referendums in other EU countries we would see clearly we are not alone. The EU could have averted our Exit but Junker chose a different path.
With a bit of luck everything will fail and we'll end up taking the easy option of least disturbance, which would be carry on as we are but we'll call ourselves EEA members instead and just not have any MEPs.
Molgrips had the Remain campaign economic scenarios looked like the reailty we have experienced
IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.
Why can you not address this fact?
@kimbers Major's birthday, good spot 🙂 They'll be a party in the Bird household for sure.
People didnt vote on the basis of treaties theyve never heard of, they voted leave because they felt they have no control over their lives and the EU was a convenient scapegoat, the brexies had spent years spreading this myth, so confident in the hate theyd fostered that they wrote some lies on a bus and now brag about it as a great tactic.
Molgrips the Armageddon scenarios where IMMEDIATE not on A50 trigger. They also included not a single new trade deal ever 😯 they shot themselves in both feet and destroyed their own credibility.
I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see. I see opportunity. I see a once in a lifetime chance that we took to exit a diasterous and failing political union project.
Molgrips the Armageddon scenarios where IMMEDIATE not on A50 trigger.
Not really, at least that's not how I understood it.
So what if the economy does slide over the next five years - that'll be okay will it, because that wasn't what remain said?
I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see.
a) 42% of Tory voters voted remain and
b) Personally I really really really really DO NOT WANT A BLEAK FUTURE. Because I live and work here (now I've got no ****ing choice thanks to you but anyway) and my kids are going to have to live and work here (again they also have no choice) so I desperately want and need the UK to be a success.
What a monumentally ****ing stupid thing to say. You really think remainers are so bitter and twisted? You are not thinking at all rationally about this.
I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see.
Yeah... we're all relishing the prospect of impoverishment, inequality and chaos! We'll all be happy as pigs in shit when that happens!
Seriously... what planet do you live on?
This comes down to who'll be the losers and winners in the forthcoming shitstorm? And the answer will be the same as it always is. Just more so, this time
I see opportunity
Let's hope the opportunities trickle down to those unable to make their own opportunities. But somehow I doubt it - see Welshfarmer.
I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see.
Utter nonsense, I certainly don't want to see anything of the kind. What I want to see is the Brexit zealots take the enormous task ahead seriously by properly resourcing a transition organisation.
What I see instead is a shambles headed by David Davies and disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox with Boris Johnson lumbering around somewhere in the background. And a steady drip of propaganda readying the Scots, the rEU and all who aren't of the True Faith as scapegoats when the sunlit uplands remain on the horizon indefinitely.
I see oportunity
Me too, it's the opportunity to strip away worker's and consumer's rights, along with environmental protections in the name of making a success of the whole fiasco. We're all in it together.
I see naivety
I see unbelievable stupidity, tinged with racism
ernie_lynch can't be bothered with this thread, perhaps he's the smartest Leaver here ?
jambalaya - Member
ernie_lynch can't be bothered with this thread, perhaps he's the smartest Leaver here ?
nah,
hes just embarrassed that he supported a movement that used blatant lies and xenophobia & has been seen as hugely beneficial to the alt-right
and the result led to a reshuffled in government that brought the swivel-eyed right wingers to the fore...
Molgrips the Armageddon scenarios where IMMEDIATE not on A50 trigger.
As I recall...
A50 trigger was assumed in the scenarios to be immediate/June 24th, so immediate and A50 can be assumed to be the same thing.
The scenario laid out the harm to the UK economy over 15 years.
It's definitely not 15 years from A50 trigger, and as I recall Jamba you yourself forecast a hit to the economy for 20 years - but worth it on a jingoistic sovereignty basis in your opinion.
Agreed?
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[I]It's definitely not 15 years from A50 trigger, and as I recall Jamba you yourself forecast a hit to the economy for 20 years - but worth it on a jingoistic sovereignty basis in your opinion. [/I]
I think we ended up agreeing it'd take 10 years to settle down, and a generation before we might start been in a better place than now.
Not sure if it'll make any difference, but there is a march in London on Saturday to try and make the Government at least take account of remainers.
https://www.uniteforeurope.co.uk/
Hopefully there'll be enough people to at least be noticed by the news outlets.
Jamba - there already has been huge damage to the economy with large amounts of investment shelved, fall in the value of the £, large numbers of job losses directly attributable to leaving the EU and we are still 2 years from the crunch point.
But then when we had a debate about the damage to financial services you did consider that the loss of the most profitable 20% of their operations to be insignificant
BR =- so you are a leaver and accept it will cause damage to the economy for 25 years?
.... and as I recall Jamba you yourself forecast a hit to the economy for 20 years - but worth it on a jingoistic sovereignty basis in your opinion.
No I did not at all. I said I thought it would be a min of 5 years or maybe as much as 10 before we saw benefits from new trade deals outweighing loss of free trade to Europe.
I want the same jingoistic sovereignty as [b]everywhere else in the world[/b] not a member of the EU. Thats a lot of countries
The EU is a catatstrophe from top to bottom. A massive No Thanks from me
Right - so ten years of recession you think is acceptable?
The EU is a catatstrophe from top to bottom.
And ten years of recession for the UK wouldn't be a worse catastrophe?
@igm fhe Remain scenarios where chosen to be the most negative possible, that included the biggest shock factor namely A50 triggered almost immediately when it was clear there was no plan (as Cameron/Osbourne made none)
There isn't a shadow of doubt that the Remain Armageddon scenarios have been proven ludicrous and lead directly to Osbourne's departure a loss of credibility for the Treasury, IMF/OECD eating massive portions of humble pie.
@molgrips my point is that the most, shall we say emotive, posters here are anti-Tory and the Brexit part is just some extra gas on the fire.
@molgrips my point is that the most, shall we say emotive, posters here are anti-Tory and the Brexit part is just some extra gas on the fire.
Not news, and your point is still ludicrous.
I'd dearly love to be wrong about all this. I'd love to live in an open doored multi-cultural prosperous society. However I don't think those first two things are what leavers had in mind, to be honest.
And we will definitely have much higher barriers to our own neighbours, and our own citizens, which frankly stinks.
There isn't a shadow of doubt that the Remain Armageddon scenarios have been proven ludicrous
Which ones? The ones saying we might have a long recession? How can anything have been proven so soon?
You cannot seriously be this dim. You are spinning at a thousand rpm.
Right - so ten years of recession you think is acceptable?
Where the F did I say there would be a recession ? We have growth of 2% vs a pre-Brexit estimate of 2.4% that's the sort of short term cost I was referring to. Less growth, arguably, due primarily to uncertainty.
Project Aramgeddon had a short term recession similar to 2008-10 and that has been shown to be a total load of sh.te
Aside from being supremely overly negative it absolutely failed fo grasp that the 52 are deloghted with the result and optimistic for the future.
Not sure if it'll make any difference, but there is a march in London on Saturday to try and make the Government at least take account of remainers.https://www.uniteforeurope.co.uk/
Hopefully there'll be enough people to at least be noticed by the news outlets.
It does make a difference, in particular to how the country is perceived abroad. The alternative is ceding the field to the fruitloops. It's too early for that.
Anyone who sees the lunacy of what's happening to our country, please go - there will be events in other cities as well as London.
It does make a difference, in particular to how the country is perceived abroad.
And there could be knock on effects not yet obvious.
Struggles like this don't turn in a day, they are a long haul.
Aside from being supremely overly negative it absolutely failed fo grasp that the 52 are deloghted with the result and optimistic for the future.
the 52% aren't the ones who earn money in the Uk, as a very general rule they are a drain on the UKs finances.
So what you have is 48% being hit for more taxes to pay for this. Whilst at the same time gaining nothing, not technically true gain a load of ball ache!
Aside from being supremely overly negative it absolutely failed fo grasp that the 52 are deloghted with the result and optimistic for the future.
All of them?
[i]Shirley seems genuinely worried that the £350m number might not be true. She resolves to charter a bus with Peta from the north-east to meet the new foreign secretary. “I would go mad if this money doesn’t go into the NHS, I will go mad. I want to be assured that this money – because that’s why I voted to come out,” says Shirley.[/i]
I do hope she's feeling OK, dear Shirley!
Project Aramgeddon had a short term recession similar to 2008-10 and that has been shown to be a total load of sh.te
Ok, so if we get through it all without any negative impact, then I'll be happy to be wrong.
The specifics aren't important. The warning was of negative impact. You can't wait 6 months then say 'oh it's all going to be fine!'.
You are not being honest Jam.
Actually just thought of something re the NHS. What percentage of our drugs/materials/expenses are from abroad and priced in currencies other than GBP? How much would a 20% drop in sterling have wiped off the budget already?
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/7dbf749d-f9b4-38b5-b6ed-0d7463698a2d ]FT[/url]
taking back control, yep, the idiots who screwed the UK will seize all the power for themselves with very few checks and balances.
@molgrips losing the European Medicines Agency is a significant blow to the UK's pharma industry too (so says my other half who works in it, bt what would she know eh?).
Not to mention the 900 **proper tax-paying jobs, the ripple effects on the families and outwards.
** ie they actually contribute more than they take!
Anyone can see the shit has yet to hit the fan.
Except Jam - he thinks it's all gonna be great. Except I think that if he's honest, he knows he's just exhibiting confirmation bias, but the confrontational nature of this thread is making him dig in even more. I wish he'd be honest about it - we'd give him less of a hard time.
so says my other half who works in it
She out of work then? Sorry to hear that.
She out of work then? Sorry to hear that.
Thank you, in the industry not the EMA thankfully. I feel sorry for those guys. Still when redundancies are going around we know the brave leavers will be stepping up to go first don't we.