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Jezza is a natural leaver and i do agree that labour would be in as much trouble - not quite as much as the committed brexiters tend to be certain type of tory- if they were in charge, Its an issue that is not simple left v right
But there appear to be some contradictions to his stance, he wants a more socislist style government, as long as it’s his, and not a bigger better fairer government, aka the EU.
I think he sees the EU as a large free market club [ no one can see it as socialist*] more interested in maximising trade than a fairer world. I think he dislikes it state aid stance as well. Its true that his position is at odds with his party, his supporters and the MP's who would all back a custom union.
he may well do it just to defeat May as a way to power rather than as an act of principle. I do not know if he is as talented/Machiavellian to do such a thing.
* its one nation Tory IMHO Very keen on free trade and small state** and de regulation but with an acceptance to help the needy rather than expect them to help themself
**All govts want more power but i dont think the EU is that expansionist except in its role v national govts.
Corbyn I believe has been persuaded that he needs to be a bit more pro EU. Partly for political reasons and partly as a bulwark against the far right. It will be interesting to see what position they come up with tho. I suspect a Norway type position
As a beneficiary of EU employment regulations(*) I certainly don't have such a jaundiced view. It is clear that the EU has acted to protect workers and the population generally (eg through environmental protection) in a way quite unlike what "free market club" would usually imply.
(*) as of course many people are, perhaps unknowingly
What about the EU's environmental record? I keep seeing EU regs about environmental issues and it would seem to me to be in a good place to make them as it can make them apply to everyone equally to keep a level playing field and the commission's point of view would seem to be a little further away from short termist electioneering. But if a smaller country has to try and compete with a large bloc then surely environment regs would be easy to cut.
Apparently Jeremy is going to make a speach soon, will it be a theresa may style film flam, or will he take a position..
My bet is he takes a nuanced postion and leaves some wriggle room
My bet is that he tries to compromise by trying to represent the overwhelming pro EU views of his party, but just can’t manage to do it, and reverting back to his rebellious backbencher self - which in his own head he still is - in the Q&A sessions after his vague, non-comittal prepared speech - reverts back to his personal knee-jerk anti-EU stance and scuppers all hope of a sensible minimal damage Brexit position from the Labour Party, as most of his own MPs do a collective face-palm and lapse into despair
i’d put my house on it
I’m looking forward to another generous serving of incoherent cakeist blether.
i’d put my house on it
I thought your pathological anti-Corbynism had been quiet for a while 😉
For now at least he continues to get to play the small target game. Sure, were he in May’s shoes right now he’d find it a lot trickier, but he isn’t, so small target works. If the Tories continue to tear themselves asunder, it might work all the way to number 10. At this stage I don’t think he could do much worse than May’s rank incompetence. Couldn’t run the Home Office, and sure as hell can’t run the country.
Liam Fox on Marr...... the man is not fit for any job that involves anything sharp (knives and wit)
My bet is he takes a nuanced postion and leaves some wriggle room
Just like May has ?
Somewhere between TJ's view and Binners
Will say something clear yet vague - perhaps he is improving as a politician after all
Thank god an actual debate has broken out lets not get distracted and engage as it could be like this
Will say something clear yet vague – perhaps he is improving as a politician after all
Yup. At this stage he really doesn’t have to say much. He’s not in government, an election is unlikely any time soon, and one way or the other it’s likely to be done before either of those things happens.
Well, it'll be done (and done in a more damaging form) if he keeps whipping his MPs to support the government… no point any Conservative MPs breaking ranks and voting for a sensible direction if both the two biggest parties are whipping MPs in the other direction. This whole "leave the Tories to f'ck things up, then move into number 10" approach is damaging to my family and friends. I won't be cheering him if he sticks to it, that's for sure.
I think an election is 50/50 before leave date. How much longer can May go on and how much longer can she keep the rabid right, the tory remainers and the DUP on side?
The big test will be the vote on the coming bill when a tory amendment to remain in the single market / customs union will be voted on. A defeat there leaves the tory position in tatters. quick vote of no confidence, bingo - new elections.
The DUP will not put up with a border in the North sea which is the only possible way of respecting the GFA and leaving the single market, customs union and they will be quite prepared to pull everything down.
The Rabids will not accept any jurisdiction of the ECJ which unfortunately for them is essential if euro financial services are to remain in London and for a whole host of other trade reasons for other sectors. also the ECJ will have to continue to be able to hear the cases of EU citizens in th UK
The remainers in the tory party will not accept a cliff edge brexit as they know how damaging that would be to the economy not being blinded by ideology and xenophobia
The "managed divergance" or whatever phrase they used is such an obvious no from the EU that it won't survive long as a compromise position and when that is soundly rebuffed then the fracture lines will all open up again.
Well, it’ll be done (and done in a more damaging form) if he keeps whipping his MPs to support the government…
That much is true, but it’s still a very delicate position. We know 17m people voted to leave. Most of them are still in the UK, and dismissing them last time is what got us in this mess. Given the rabid press he, and labour in general, need to be very careful of cries of anti democratic behaviour, however ill founded, sticking.
true but we also know may stood on a ticket of back me for a hard Brexit and got an electoral kicking. We also know the opposition an defeat the govt on a CU vote. The issue is will he do this, I think the party want to its whether he will do it.
Either way he is neither holding the govt to account nor is he opposing them. Its weak leadership IMHO - just as weak as May as neither of them is willing to openly say what they really ant - perhaps this will change for Labour[ not optimistic] this week but it wont for the tories.
the only part of the press that will attack him are the ones prepared to print lies about spying anyone so attacks from them are guaranteed as long as he keeps breathing - FFS they even tried to portray Ed milliband as some firebrand marxist [ and his dad as a traitor ] so I think we an assume they will also attack any labour leader to the left of Gove.
true but we also know may stood on a ticket of back me for a hard Brexit and got an electoral kicking.
But the pro-hard Brexit parties still won the general election, right?
I actually think Hard Brexit is the logical answer of choosing to leave the EU. Anything less and we take what we have now, make it worse and it costs us more money.
However, Hard Brexit is going to make this a worse place to live and cost us more money too. And **** the Irish (both sides of the line)
We basically had Soft Brexit before we choose to leave.
....the only real answer is to say "Actually, this was a bad idea. The slim majority of people who voted for it had their say, but.... it's just bad and will affect so many other people - the ones who didn't vote and who voted to stay - negatively, that their needs outweigh yours."
"Also, since we're keeping freedom of movement you can all bugger off to Spain!"
The answer to me is a second referendum now that the lies of the leavers are exposed and the scale of the damage is evident
But the pro-hard Brexit parties still won the general election, right?
No. UKIP were obliterated
The slim majority of people who voted for it had their say, but…. it’s just bad and will affect so many other people – the ones who didn’t vote and who voted to stay – negatively, that their needs outweigh yours.
The answer to me is a second referendum now that the lies of the leavers are exposed and the scale of the damage is evident
It is both the most sensible and the most obvious solution. But yet because of a somewhat ironic fear of being labelled antidemocratic, it’s also probably the most unlikely.
If you’re so certain that Brexit is the best path Zulu, why are you against the idea of a second referendum to confirm it?
There won’t be a second referendum because we have a hysterical right wing press and a bunch of hard-right lunatic politicians who have dreamt of this moment for decades almost as a religion, and a pathetically weak, spineless government and opposition. The latter are absolutely terrified of the former and are having their agendas dictated to them. Apparently this is a celebration of democracy
To be fair @binners, new Labour primarily did the tories' work for them. At least Corbyn has some points of differentiation.
Corbyns Labour are far less in thrall to the rightwing papers that Blairs was
If you’re so certain that Brexit is the best path Zulu, why are you against the idea of a second referendum to confirm it?
Because the electoral commission fully reviewed all options for the question to be put to the public before the referendum was held, and they didn’t recommend putting “best of three” on the bottom
ninfan - just admit it is because you think you might lose
Looks like labour have confirmed they will stay in the custom's union and a likely Tory, snp, libs and labour union against a hard brexit....
"a" customs union not "the" - thats the bit of fudge needed. However its sensibleish position and does allow for that coalition you mention who should be able to defeat the government
Well it's the first nail in the coffin of brexit from Labour. But no more than that.
Great article, as usual, by Andrew Rawnsley in today’s Observer, saying that Brexit all now hinges on the Labour Party and what it decides. With May having such a slim majority (when you include the DUP) it would only require 7 Tory MPs to vote with labour to scupper a hard Brexit
and if labour comes out in favour of the customs union and the single market it’d be guaranteed at least 20, negating the Kate Hoey/Dennis Skinner element. The Tory Whips know this and are bricking it about Corbyn speech tomorrow. If he gets it right then the Brexiteers dream Hard Brexit is dead in the water, May is probably finished, and the Tory party can get on with tearing itself apart
Here’s hoping, eh?
With May having such a slim majority (when you include the DUP
I dont think she can rely on them especially if the alternative is a Border in the irish sea and customs between NI and the mainland but not the republic
No one in the DUP is voting for that
Its obvious a CU has a parliamentary majority
As for engaging with ninfan what are we doing feeding one troll at a time ? Are they on a rota?
The Tory Whips know this and are bricking it about Corbyn speech tomorrow. If he gets it right then the Brexiteers dream Hard Brexit is dead in the water, May is probably finished, and the Tory party can get on with tearing itself apart
More exciting than a new series of Narcos.
Getting old.
Oh dear... oh deary me.
What are you BloHard Contards going to do now?
I foresee huge backpeddling, renounced and denounced comments, plenty of filibuster and wobbly chins, a new pair of shoes no doubt for Das furher and plenty of “I only voted Brexit because of the trade” bullshite.
You wanted to leave, bugger off.
Bunch of 🤡
I'm not in the binners school of rabid anti-Corbynism, but I find it hard to believe that his speech will amount to anything decisive More likely to be just some lukewarm soup about generalities.
it would only require 7 Tory MPs
Six, I think you mean - one will already be voting against 😉 . Five if you include Anna.
We'll be in the customs union. It won't be "a" union either. EU negotiators have already said as much.
Given the political open goal he is presently being presented with - game-changer - huge body blow to the right wing of the Tory party, two fingers to the right wing press, possibly bringing down the PM, and instigating the implosion of theTory Party - there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will spoon it into Row Z.
Cue a massive collective nationwide face-palm by all his MPs bar Kate Hoey and Dennis Skinner and all the sane members of the electorate
Bet you are wrong Binners. I really do not understand why you are so anti corbyn and pro prats like Burnham
We’ll be in the customs union. It won’t be “a” union either. EU negotiators have already said as much.
I think it has has to be ‘a’ CU if we leave the SM, as ‘the’ CU is for members of the SM only. However, there’s no reason we couldn’t negotiate ‘a’ CU which was entirely equivalent to the one for SM members (unlike the CU with Turkey, for example, which excludes certain sectors) and I think this is what Lab mean.
There is of course a question about not having a say in the rules; for example the French have always been keen that banks doing business in the SM need to be headquartered in the SM, which we’ve successfully opposed but might not be able to do so post-Brexit.
I gather only ⅓ of leave voters thought they were voting to leave the SM.
The Tory Whips know this and are bricking it
If what Ed Vaizey was saying on TV is true, the Tory whips have next to no control of their party.
Given the political open goal he is presently being presented with – game-changer – huge body blow to the right wing of the Tory party, two fingers to the right wing press, possibly bringing down the PM, and instigating the implosion of theTory Party – there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will spoon it into Row Z
I am sure he knows he can do that but then he may be the PM expected to deliver the thing he does not really want and the labour party will be as weak and divided as the Tories are. DOnt get me wrong I want t him to but I thin he is trying to say something to "unite" his party whilst it still not being 100% clear. I will get the best customs union for Britain that will protect workers,, save the environment, grow the economy but he wont say WTF it is just like May
You hate Corbyn more than most Mail readers
Im not so sure that the 6 odd Tories would actually back this alleged labour amendment.
They'd rather see the country flushed down the tubes than risk destabilising Maybot, as much as they all despise her none of them want that poisoned chalice right now, nor do they want labour in.
I'd like to be wrong, but Ill wager cowardice will win the day
Because the electoral commission fully reviewed all options for the question to be put to the public before the referendum was held, and they didn’t recommend putting “best of three” on the bottom
No, they didn’t. But that doesn’t answer my question does it? If I were to ask you if you wanted to leave your home, the next logical question is where are we going and how do we get there. The public have not been given an opportunity to answer those questions, and they may now have reservations about going outside at all as it turns out the weather is rubbish.
Kimbers - its a backbench tory amendment and has the backing of a significant number of tories
its a backbench tory amendment and has the backing of a significant number of tories
This. Dominic Grieve has already said he will do what is right for his conscience regardless of whether it is in line with the party whip. I’d expect Soubers to do the same, and (at a guess) Morgan, Greening and Vaizey. There will likely be others who are in pro-Remain seats that aren’t comfortable with the ERG headbanger squad trying to control the narrative.
Edit: Sarah Wollaston, Stephen Hammond and Johnathan Djanogly are named on the amendment, along with Morgan, and Soubry. So there’s five off the bat.
Fingers crossed that Obi-Wan sticks to Keir's script and doesn't take any questions.
The Corbyn speech. Sounds positive to me.
Can his words be backed up with actions?
Sounds OK ish to me. Not my preferred option which would be " a second referendum on the deal" but he has outlined what he wants and how he intends to get there which is a lot more than the tories have.
also nothing I saw which is evidently impossible to get unlike the tories
Seems to me its a Norway / Switzerland / turkey type deal but even closer
Sounded remarkably sensible to me. And in stark contrast to the total pie-in-the-sky 'cake and eat it' nonsense the Tories are spouting.
We are really through the looking glass when a labour leader generally labelled a marxist, pinko commie delivers a speech that seems to take the considerations of business (in ensuring tail free access to markets) a lot more seriously to 'The Natural Party of Business' who appear to be happy to sacrifice everything on the alter of their hard right isolationist zealotry
I really don't know how he couldn't have said it 6 months ago though. Surely its been the inevitable final destination for a lot longer than that, and what the vast majority of his party wanted all along?
Anyway... over to Theresa. Now theres a clear differentiation between labour and the Tory's I'm sure her speech will now be being re-written for the 93rd time. She's probably now going to have to cancel it so that she can dither for another few months to try and prevent civil war breaking out. Deep down she probably envies Jezza for being able to announce a sensible policy on Brexit without their own party going into meltdown
Sounds like he listened to the electorate...
No doubt the hard core will be angry, which is fine as they have failed to come up with any workable solution. If anything this could force some votes to split the tories and then we see what happens from there. If those who really really want to leave can't come up with a plan then I guess it could be time for putting the plan to the people.
Sounded remarkably sensible to me. And in stark contrast to the total pie-in-the-sky ‘cake and eat it’ nonsense the Tories are spouting.
Same here! I actually breathed out a sigh of relief. Finally someone is making sensible, practical decisions! I thought it was never going to happen lol.
Christ, Harperson is on Australian QandA talking about Brexit. It’s not as if Australia has enough of its own political problems already...
George Osboune's Editorial in the Evening Standard tonight just put out on Twitter. He really does love putting the boot into the Maybot, doesn't he. He must be loving this!
Tories gifted Corbyn an open goal on the customs union, and he just put the ball in.
The Labour leader has, with the smallest of nudges, manoeuvred himself into a more pro-business, pro-free trade European policy than the Tory Government.
He has also opened up the looming prospect of the Prime Minister suffering a huge defeat in the Commons, as the number of Tory MPs who agree with remaining in a customs union grows each week.
The Evening Standard has warned consistently that this would happen since the moment the last election result became clear.
So did the Chancellor of the Exchequer, many sensible Cabinet members, business groups, Tory peers and backbench MPs.
But the warnings were ignored and the Conservative leadership instead chose to appease the hardcore Brexiteers, obsessed with the ideological purity of their experiment and — in some cases — openly willing to lose an election, if that’s the price of pursuing it.
Christ! I'm agreeing with George Osbourne!
I'm pretty certain May must know now that she'll lose a vote on the customs union as Anna Soubry et al will be massively emboldened by this development. Could this actually force some compromise, maybe less ludicrous government policy, and her stopping this shameless pandering to the maniacs in her own party?
Nice one Corbs. I dont think it can be argued against- 52 vs 48 means out but only just.
For perspective Corbyn's new stance is broadly aligned with that of the Economist. Which kind of illustrates how far to the looney right the Conservatives have been dragged!
Christ! I’m agreeing with George Osbourne!
I know! I think I need a shower!!
I really don’t know how he couldn’t have said it 6 months ago though. Surely its been the inevitable final destination for a lot longer than that, and what the vast majority of his party wanted all along?
Quite. Feels like we've been asleep for 18 months.
Deep down she probably envies Jezza for being able to announce a sensible policy on Brexit without their own party going into meltdown
I bet she does!!
Nice one Corbs. I dont think it can be argued against- 52 vs 48 means out but only just.
This is exactly the approach Norway took when they had broadly the same result with their referendum in 1994, and have been doing perfectly fine ever since thank you very much!! 🙂
Rhe problem with al of the Brexit options is that they are still brexit and instead of a standard package of conditions that every state benefits from Britain only gets offered what is acceptable to all 27 states. Which is never going to be anywhere near as good as the standard package. Which is why whatever the type of Brexit it reduces GDP growth compared with EU membership in simulations.
I posted a thread about Renew, an alternative party to lead Britian away from Brexit and no-one even bothered to reply. Even when there's a new alternative to Labour dogma from 1974 and rabid right Tories people just aren't interested.
Norway is oil rich, has a tiny population and doesn't need the EU, Britain does.
I think given the total political chaos around Brexit at the moment, the very last thing people are going to want to do is start throwing new political parties in to the mix. Its just not going to happen
Its clear that its labour MPs and the membership that have talked Corbyn round into a less damaging policy
Interestingly, Kenneth Clark has just been interviewed and his assessment is that this is now a change of direction that will lead to, by May or June, a situation where the majority of MPs will vote to remain in the Customs Union and the Single Market
I hope he's right
A new party might work in France… but the hurdles in front of any new party (or indeed any party other than the top two) on its way to forming a UK government are bloody huge! So, yes, the idea was dismissed. Political reality.
Its clear that its labour MPs and the membership that have talked Corbyn round into a less damaging policy
To be fair to Corbyn, he has said from the start that he wanted to take a more 'collegiate' approach to leadership. It just took him a loooooong time to get round to it!!!!
He's not there yet.
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If you’re so certain that Brexit is the best path Zulu, why are you against the idea of a second referendum to confirm it?
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and if the 2nd referendum votes to Stay, will you be in favour of a 3rd referendum to confirm that?
and if the 3rd referendum votes Leave ... will you be in favour of a 4th referendum to confirm that?
and if the 4th referendum ...
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Our position re:EU will keep shifting over the next 20 years… how that is democratically informed is a valid thing to discuss.
On Edukators point about new parties ( of the left)
In Scotland we have PR for all bar westminster elections. Several attempts have been made to form new parties / coalitions on the left. None have been significant bar the scottish socialists in the first holyrood parliament where they got 6 msps but have collapses since
considering new parties have failed in Scotand where politics is more open and radical and where the electoral system makes it easier for new parties to form then for Westminster its a non starter
Another pint on the speech. For the first time I have seen Corbyn actually seems to understand the various devolution issues and in a well crafted section makes the SNP into allies not enemies over this
Our defacto deputy PM is today talking up the importance of Welsh cheesemakers being able to sell cheese into England, free of tariff and non-tariff barriers, post Brexit.
We are through the looking glass now people…
The CBI has issued a statement supporting Corbyn's stance.
Now imagine hearing that statement in the pre-Brexit world? It really is a sort of Year Zero, isn't it?
Irony-filter-malfunctioning, coffee-spluttering headline of the day goes to the Guardian for this gem...
DUP ACUSE LABOUR OF POLITICAL OPPORTUNISM
lolz
Cake & eat from the Tories & Labour....
What a cluster-F of a mess we are in!
Cake & eat from the Tories & Labour….
What a cluster-F of a mess we are in!
I'm not sure what this means..
Our defacto deputy PM is today talking up the importance of Welsh cheesemakers being able to sell cheese into England,
What's so special about the cheesemakers - or was he referring to any manufacturers of dairy products?
It means:
"After months of rumours, denials of those rumours, more rumours and then an obligatory “away day”, Labour has today unveiled its new policy on Brexit.
At a speech in Coventry (which backed Brexit by 55 per cent to 45 per cent) Jeremy Corbyn will announce his party’s support of “a” customs union with the European Union after Brexit.
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On one level the move is smart politics: it puts clear water between Labour and the government and allows the party to side with Tory rebels when the issue comes to a vote in parliament later next year.
With about a dozen or more Conservatives almost certain to vote against the government on its customs union policy, there is a clear prospect of defeat for Theresa May.
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In such circumstances a snap general election cannot be ruled out, giving Mr Corbyn a realistic chance of achieving his ultimate aim of forming a government and delivering a Labour Brexit.
But looking carefully at Mr Corbyn’s speech it is clear that even if he was in power his objectives for a new type of relationship with the EU would be as difficult to negotiate as those of the Conservative government.
Labour, to use the well-worn cliché, wants to eat its cake and eat it as much as the Tory Brexiteers. It’s just different cake.
Mr Corbyn said that Labour would seek protections, clarifications or exemptions in relation to privatisation and public service competition directives, state aid and procurement rules.
He wants to be inside a customs union with close alignment and privileged access to the single market. Yet he implies that he doesn’t want to pay into the EU budget for this privilege. In fact, he suggests in the speech that he can negotiate a deal that returns £8 billion a year of Brexit savings into jobs and public services.
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Such a deal is as unrealistic as the kind of relationship the Tory right expect to be able to achieve. A future Labour government cannot simply arrive in Brussels and say, “We’re not the nasty Tories so give us everything you wouldn’t give them”.
But ultimately, like so much of Labour policy, this new position is not about what a Corbyn government would actually do in power. Rather it is about building an electoral coalition to achieve something that before the EU referendum would have been unthinkable: putting Jeremy Corbyn in government."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-lays-out-its-brexit-cake-strategy-0rxvlg2pn
Also:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43189878
&
Quite a lot of cake there I'm afraid..
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I prefer his cake to Eton mess.
Ah, I see. I still prefer Labour's idea as it's already been tried and proven to be workable.
Proven? Workable? How so?
mmmmmm cake
What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option. He also has put a much more concrete proposal than anything yet to come out of the tory camp outlining what he wants in a fair amount of detail.
What’s so special about the cheesemakers?
I hear they're blessed.