[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

UKIP got 50% more votes than the LibDems last general election.

I'm not talking about party political broadcasting, I'm talking general sentiment, and who they have on news night..

That's why I said it shows the basis of their thinking, it was illustrative of how they do balance analysis, and as Ernie points out UKIP got a lot more votes in the last election and a vast amount more in the last Euro Election, but my guess becuase I can't be bothered to look, less in Council elections. All these things are taken into account.

UKIP got 50% more votes than the LibDems last general election.

Good job the lib dems didn't get through PR then eh...

The SNP got a million votes less than the LibDems, but 7 times more MPs than the LibDems.

More scots voted to stay part of the UK than the EU* - not that this forms part of the narrative!!

* canny folk despite the BS that surrounds them everyday

they seem to be settling in for a long fight - years maybe decades from what I'm hearing.

Where did you hear that?

It's a sensible strategy IMO given the insane ad hominem that spews from Duncan Smith whenever anyone publicly stands up and makes a balanced Remain case (Blair, Major) - just keep stringing out the process, let it get ever more complicated and confusing, let the deal we're offered look weak, sew seeds of doubt that we'll be better off out, let us slip into lower living standards so people feel it in their pockets for real... falling pound = inflation, raise interest rates just a little to defend the pound and put a dent in house prices... none of it overt or obvious enough for Brexiteers to be able to attack without sounding like conspiracy theorists... a few years of this and we'll find a shift in public opinion.
My parents haven't changed their mind but they know I'm furious with them. Not just on my account but my nephews (their grandsons) who live in Ireland and so could well be disadvantaged by Brexit. Enough private conversations like this and we'll see the less hardline Brexiters think more deeply about what they really want...
Not ignoring the impact of a fair chunk of the Out vote dying off...

More scots voted to stay part of the UK than the EU* - not that this forms part of the narrative!!

* canny folk despite the BS that surrounds them everyday

I'm no fan at all of the SNP, or Nationalism of any sort, nor politicians telling lies but we still have to acknowledge that the Scottish question and the various alternative scenarios are an additional level of complexity which were never included in the Brexit campaign nor discussed at the time of the vote - just another unintended consequence which looks likely to leave England worse off because of the Brexit vote - and one which I contend most Out voters did not think of... what a stupid mess

More Scots voted to leave the UK union in 2014, than voted to leave the European Union in 2016, not that this forms part of your narrative THM

It is complicated brooess, very true, especially now as people who claim to want independence are now seeking to surrender monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to Frankfurt. Under mols defintion they should all be disqualified from voting for not understand the basics of the issues at hand.

What did most vote for Gordi? The real forgotten narrative....

...spreading down south too. Sad days for "democracy", unless you want to keep redefining the word.

should all be disqualified from voting for not understand the basics of the issues at hand.

TBF, so should I. I had no idea about the Northern Ireland thing or the Scottish Thing, or the £60bn bill, or the Article 50 process etc etc. Funnily enough, no-one felt it necessary to tell us what it was all about, hence a bunch of people have voted against their own best interests without knowing they were doing it at the time.

It's worrying seeing my manager at work (supposedly a Senior Marketing Strategy Manager) who voted out because she doesn't like immigrants, and against the expressed interests of her employer, flail around trying to claim the economy's ok and consumer confidence isn't falling when it plainly is... she's just had her fears of the outside world manipulated...

Clearly a lot of folk don't like immigrants (or hide behind mypoic nonsense about what gov priorities should be) and make false claims about their impact on the economy. We had a chance to correct their views but failed, badly.

Who's to blame? The ignorant or the intelligent ones who can't get a simple message across? Which groups should be eliminated from the "democratic" process?

More scots voted to stay part of the UK than the EU

Maybe before, I'd think they'd be sensible to arbitrate thier own EU membership given the current circumstances, I'm not Scottish so I can not speak for them, but I wouldn't blame them for doing the right thing for their country.

I'm sure it would be just a rubber stamp exercise to keep Scotland in the EU as they already operate as an EU nation under the UK.

Edit CBA

Pretty sure the Scottish can look after themselves in the EU, if I was Scottish I would like to leave the UK and fast track into EU.

I'm pretty sure the EU would be receptive to the idea.

@thm.. Argument run out of steam?

No ones is debating whether Scotland could look after itself, it's what is in the best interests of her people. Anyway there is a thread for that....

Edit for edit: The pack of lies that were dressed up as an argument (sic) ran out of steam in '14, hence the extra exaggerated BS the is now required to resurrect them and the narcissists dreams now. #SDBMB

More tripe

Read page 16 of this slide pack - BBC 1 has nearly 5 times the reach of the Daily Mail and Mail Online.

An offcom report whose main source for the report is based on polling 2921 people. Great.

 

teamhurtmore - Member
No ones is debating whether Scotland could look after itself, it's what is in the best interests of her people.

One and the same thing.

An offcom report whose main source for the report is based on polling 2921 people. Great.

Sampling error of less than 2%

One and the same thing

Wow - on that same logic (sic) the fact the the UK will be able to look after itself post Brexshit means that this is the best interests of our people.

That's an argument that I will have to park for a bit......actually a very long time.

Just when you think arguments cannot get more bizarre/convoluted/abstracted from reality, along come the twisted yS variations to prove you haven't seen anything yet......

Still obsessed with Scotland, THM? What's the problem - did Nanny make you wear a kilt, or something?

Great post Dr - a big improvement on your normal [s]gu[/s]stuff

brooess - Member
Where did you hear that?

Contact with the local branch (and awareness of a couple of the other branches nearby).

They seem to have been spending time getting themselves organised.
Round here where we have a Brexy MP in a remain constituency they're going for silent vigils outside his surgeries and I've heard putting EU flags on every roundabout - watch out Milton Keynes.

It may of course fizzle out - but I'm not convinced. As Chewkw says he was personally campaigning against the EU for 43 years (before it was created in fact)

Ooooh igm I'm an mker. Where do I sign up?

You can't afford a flag for every roundabout.

[i]TBF, so should I. I had no idea about the Northern Ireland thing or the Scottish Thing, or the £60bn bill, or the Article 50 process etc etc. Funnily enough, no-one felt it necessary to tell us what it was all about, hence a bunch of people have voted against their own best interests without knowing they were doing it at the time. [/I]

But this is the bit that does my head in, how could anyone who's lived in the UK for even a short period NOT realise that there'd be an issue in Northern Ireland if we left the EU.

Except that is the chap at my last place of work, he still thought that Southern Ireland (and I use his description) was a part of the UK..., yep he voted Leave too on account of all the foreigners coming here and taking our jobs. Please note, I live in rural Scotland where even the local Indian employs (white) Scots as waiters.

So you did just vote without understanding the implications, of either side.

[I]It is complicated brooess, very true, especially now as people who claim to want independence are now seeking to surrender monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to Frankfurt. Under mols defintion they should all be disqualified from voting for not understand the basics of the issues at hand. [/I]

As opposed to going cap in hand to anyone who'll have (exploit) us, as the UK will?

Maybe we just don't want to be controlled by the Tories in Westminster, have you ever thought of that?

Not as opposed to that at all.

BTW have you met Wolfgang Schauble? Be careful what you wish for. Giving up high levels of devolved power in favour of his (among others) patronage would be very, very odd indeed

Still it's an odd world

From my point of view it's in the best interest of the people of Scotland that they should decide who governs Scotland.

Newsnight on changing views in Holland. Only available on FB, no direct video link on their YT channel. Ignore a small problem and it becomes a medium sized one. Ignore a medium sized problem and it becomes a large problem soneone else sorts out.

From my point of view it's in the best interest of the people of Scotland that they should decide who governs Scotland.

Yup the Government agreed that in 2013 (?) so you had a two year campaign and a legally binding Referendum. You decided.

@b r why not ask the Greeks how they feel about being governed by the EU ?

@b r why not ask the Greeks how they feel about being governed by the EU ?

Captain the Greeks aren't paying any interest to banks, the eurozone took over the debt and gave them a close to zero interest rate and then refunded them the notional "profits" from the loans. They did this after private lenders like banks decided Greece had borrowed far too much (and lied aout amounts borrowed) and could not pay, ever. Private lenders are not interested in lending to Greece at any level (certainly my view as I have declined every Greek related transaction I have been shown inc those with supposedly solid collateral, there quite simply is no rate I would lend to Greece). I remember a meeting 2 years ago where Greek officials where trying to get my employer to lend / invest more on the basis of their (fantasticaly) positive outlook. My colleagues made it clear we where only looking to exit, there was no rate or terms which would encourage to even maintain our level of investment.

With oil at $50 Scotland's budget deficit is higher than Greece's

Brooes if Scotland leaves the UK the country will still be called the UK and the blue bits wil still be on the flag. No one in the rest of the world will really give a toss.

Captain the Greeks aren't paying any interest to banks, the eurozone took over the debt and gave them a close to zero interest rate and then refunded them the notional "profits" from the loans. They did this after private lenders like banks decided Greece had borrowed far too much (and lied aout amounts borrowed) and could not pay, ever. Private lenders are not interested in lending to Greece at any level ([b]certainly my view as I have declined every Greek related transaction I have been shown inc those with supposedly solid collateral, there quite simply is no rate I would lend to Greece). I remember a meeting 2 yeats ago where Greek officials where trtuing to get my employer to lend / invest more on the basis of their (fantastical) positive outlook.[/b] Yncolleagues made it clear we where only looking to exit, there was no rate or terms which would encourage to even maintain oir level of investment.

[i]@b r why not ask the Greeks how they feel about being governed by the EU ? [/I]

Funny that, we had a week in Athens during the summer (fantastic hotel, great people, excellent food). The average Greek doesn't really care who's in charge, much like any other country. They just want to get on with their life.

And tbh saw no trouble at all, even though our hotel overlooked the parliament building and is one of the landmark hotels - plus no heavy security nor police.

Surely better to ask them how they feel about paying extortionate interest levels to private banks which are preventing them from digging themselves out of the hole they are in?

Groundhog Day - as Jamba says - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33311535/greek-money-crisis-who-does-greece-owe-money-to ]lending is dominated[/url] by supranationals and countries - as you have been told again and again, but still you come up with this bollocks. No wonder you never learn anything.

Blimey @Captain you've even upset @mefty. You are free to ignore what I have to say, however I am basically in the investment / lending business. There is no rate I would lend to Greece, in part actually as folk like yourself think lenders would be "ripping off" Greece. It's not worth the bother or the risk of lending to them. As I posted before I was on SCB's project team to contingency plan for a Greek default / euro exit. Having such a plan was (is still I imagine) a UK regulatory requirement.

Sarkozy at least had the humility to admit Greece should never have been allowed into the euro. Inside the euro they had access to an low interest rate that their economic strength / budget management never warranted and when you give a (debt) junky an almost unlimited supply to their drug of choice its only going to end one way. The EU bear responsibility for allowing this to happen and for turning a blind eye.

Yet more mud slinging jamba, it's simply not true to claim that EU legislation involves a loss of sovereignty for any member state, but a pooling of sovereignty
[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_Europe ]pooling and sharing [/url]

From my point of view it's in the best interest of the people of Scotland that they should decide who governs Scotland.

Yup the Government agreed that in 2013 (?) so you had a two year campaign and a legally binding Referendum. You decided.

Safe to say that things have materially changed since the better together campaign made their "promises". So yes, it was decided then. Who is to say that some haven't changed their mind, particularly as the national outlooks on the world between Scotland and England/Wales has been shown to be very different?

I personally am in favour of the union remaining intact but I find it rather hypocritical to have a referendum on the EU that the government now interpret as a mandate to do what Scotland was promised wouldn't happen after IndyrefI and then deny Scotland the right to have their say on whether they are happy with that.

[quote=jambalaya ]

With oil at $50 Scotland's budget deficit is higher than Greece's

JAMBAFACT ALERT

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-trivial-omission/#more-92276

Shackleton, you had two years to discuss this scenario, despite 600+ pages the SNP failed to effectively cover this issue nor the currency one.

Indyref Yes = definitely leaving the EU
Indyref No = staying in the EU whilst UK does

As such No was the best option for remaining in the EU
Yes means re-applying as does Brexit and then Independence. Whatever horsesh.t Salmond/SNP spouted there was no transition option then nor a '"sucessor state" now.

The SNP well knew that a Brexit vote would make Independence much less likely. Hence the result breakdown up North.

Boarding Bob that nonsense link is still bleating about about Scotland not taking any national debt share, if that's the case we will take back all the hospital, military and police equipment etc thats been bought with it.

[quote=jambalaya ]Boarding Bob that nonsense link is still bleating about about Scotland not taking any national debt share, if that's the case we will take back all the hospital, military and police equipment etc thats been bought with it.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/packing-scotlands-trunk/

Tenuous Brexit link.

Good to see that brexiters are not all poor ill-educated old northerns - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39197756 ]there are some middle aged posh ones too[/url]

Few people I have had the misfortune to meet have left my teeth itching quite as much as [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodri_Philipps,_4th_Viscount_St_Davids ]the good Viscount [/url] [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8895016/Viscountess-St-Davids-taken-to-court-over-debts.html ]and his wife[/url]

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