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ideology
It is not an ideology, they voted against a political construct, which for whatever reason, and there are many, they didn't think was good for the country.
It was won on a vote about what leave didn't want, not what they did.
Leave was, and is, the ultimate negative campaign / ideology.
Anyway Brexy leaver types, don't worry us remainers will bail your sorry arses out.
I was in Denver last week on a "in't Britain great" marketing campaign doing my bit again (that's 4 different initiatives so far for me).
The Brits in Denver were remainers to a man (and woman). The leavers were nowhere to be seen.
Well you seem to be asking two things ; (1) why are we leaving and (2) how are we leaving. They required different answers.
We are leaving for the simple reason that the majority of voters believed that their/our interests were served best by giving up our memberhsip of the EU. Whether correct or not, this seems to be a practical not an ideological decision if for no other reason than most Breshiteers would struggle to spell eyediolojee.
The plan is to negotiate continued access to the single market. Something that requires considerable time to negotiate and organise. - hence the need to get on with it. As before, there is no blue print. This is a live experiment....
IGM, leave may well have been total BS but I am not sure it's was negative, if anything the remain campaign was the more negative of the two - partlally justified but negative nonetheless
Justified isn't negative - it's honest.
What I mean THM, is that I'm pretty clear after the campaign what leave are against. I have no idea what they are / were for.
THM, not quite, the reasons why the people voted a numerous, but I deluded myself that the people pushing vote leave, eg farage, arron banks, rees mogg etc had some kind of theory as to why leaving the eu was gong to make things better.
It is a philospophical approach: I believe that you should only change direction if you have a plan, map, theory. Just because something isn't working well does not mean we should abandon it. EG medical science it is not perfect, but we do not abandon science in favour of magical thinking, we work to make the scientific process better. And one day, maybe someone will find a new "scientific process" which wipes out our current thinking. This analogy is what I was hoping brexit would be. The current "science" (the EU) is not perfect, there are many issues that need to be improved. So we have a new method (Brexit this is how it works and this is why it is better. Boom away we go.
Until someone explains why, brexit appears to be abandoning science in favour of optimistic voodoo.
They did. Although they we split over which parts of their (flawed) ideology were more/most important.
If you need to distill the leave argument down into one very simple (again flawed) sentence it is: we gain more from taking back control than from sharing power.
This v simple concept is displayed clearly in our choice of options for accessing the singe market post Brexshit. At the one end we have EEA which involves sharing more power in return for more liberalised trade and IMO greater prosperity. At the other we have WTO which gives us more control in exchange for less liberalised trade and IMO less prosperity.
Nipper99 - Member
I think the Vauxhall workers at Luton & Ellesmere port will be hoping May gets that Brexit cheque book out again....
Why, they were areas that voted leave and I assume they were happy with all the consequences that might flow from that decision. Leavers all took properly informed decisions after extensive research and consideration after all.
A huge number of the Ellesmere Port workers are from the Wirral area.
[url= http://election.news.sky.com/referendum/wirral-3069 ]http://election.news.sky.com/referendum/wirral-3069[/url]
They did what? Explain some kind of economic or social theory of brexit? Where?
Why, they were areas that voted leave and I assume they were happy with all the consequences that might flow from that decision. Leavers all took properly informed decisions after extensive research and consideration after all.
I think this is a little bit unfair. It seems obvious to me that the 52% of an area can vote out, but the 48% can still ask that the govt replace the EU money or economic inflow that has been cut through brexit. Conflating both groups in one area is unfair.
5+ excuse the edit - hopefully answered rhe question in the edit
If you need to distill the leave argument down into one very simple (again flawed) sentence it is: we gain more from taking back control than from sharing power.
Ahh. So we voted to take our bat and ball home.
Then what?
I've met plenty of people doing practical (if somewhat disparate at times) things to try and dig us out of the Brexit hole the leavers have left us with.
The leavers are conspicuous by their absence.
My god, it can't be just that.
Someone needs to talk about the dependence-independence-interdependence maturity curve.
Think children, teenagers, adults.
The other bit, which leavers argued about, was nasty foreigners.
But yes, essentially that is it. Each argument ultimately corms down to this issue.
Edit: yes igm that maturity argument is a powerful counter argument albeit a bit late now. We lost.
We lost the war agreed.
The peace is yet to be decided. Difference is both sides either win or lose the peace together.
Agreed. Hence my call - largely rejected here - than we now ALL have a responsibility to try to make this work rather than stick our heads in the sand and/or stand crying its not fair,
Life isn't fair, accept that and move on
THM - I am still hoping for the best while preparing for the worst. Hence why I'm help UK gov with various initiatives. Nice if some Brexies helped out.
PS - I'm still blackballing businesses that supported Brexit though.
A good mantra IGM
Not sure about black balling - can you still say that? - but I did send a snotty email to H Landsdown after they sent me an email re the investment implications of Brexshit. I have reduced my business with them although not 100%
Bet you posted that before my edit 😉
Sixty billion.
IN THE FREEDOM BANK.
I'm so excited. That's a lot of freedom.
Perhaps the [s]Mexicans[/s], [s]French[/s], EU will pay.
Perhaps not.
we now ALL have a responsibility to try to make this work rather than stick our heads in the sand and/or stand crying its not fair
That sounds nice, but most of us who are 'crying' aren't in any position to be able to make a difference. That's large part of the problem for me at least.
So no-one rejected your call THM. Just becase we remain unhappy about the situation and are critical of our politicians, doesn't mean we don't want our country to be a success still, obviously.
Life isn't fair, accept that and move on
Hell no. If everyone accepted unfairness (and in this case crass stupidity and poor thinking) we'd all still be feudal serfs. So once again - HELL NO.
[i]Life isn't fair, accept that and move on [/I]
FTFY
Life isn't fair, don't accept it, work to make it better.
I'm not in anyway helping Leavers to f*** it all up, although I'm not sure they need any help.
The priority now is to make sure all the (now Leaving) politicians KNOW that they'll pay for their acquiescence at the next GE, that might wake them up.
Molgrips its a terrible deal as France is a member, has balanced trade and pays a net contribution of zero.
Still none the wiser I'm afriad Jam.
True but working to make this better does not include failing to accept what has happened, rehashing old arguments, clinging to the past. It involves dealing with the NOW - what IS in front of us not what we would like to be in front of us - so than we can shape the future.
Mol, Jambas is incorrectly using trade balances as a measure for determining whether we get a good deal or not. It's the sort of trick Alex Salmond uses. Close enough to the truth to sound vaguely plausible but still flawed when examined properly.
True but working to make this better does not include failing to accept what has happened
Can you define 'failing to accept'? I don't think anyone here is doing that.
You just have! 😉
Wtf are you talkng about?
I am not keen on the failing to accept angle. I imagine brexit will happen, I am hopeful I can find out if there is a plan, but I am just as hopeful that Parliament will have oversight of what ever we decide to do, not just deals but econmnomic plans etc as that is how the country runs. At the moment May thinks the referendum has given her carte blanche to be a dictator.
At the moment May thinks the referendum has given her carte blanche to be a dictator.
Hyperbole - May has the smallest governing majority since Harold Wilson/James Callaghan in 1974
I see May has mistakenly offered Gove an exposed flank
even though a normal person might keep silent over the laughable hypocrisy of it he's never one to miss an opportunity to inflict a wound in the back...
Hyperbole - May has the smallest governing majority since Harold Wilson/James Callaghan in 1974
Well if you refuse to put anything to the vote, this is irrelevant.
Well if you refuse to put anything to the vote, this is irrelevant
But she hasn't, there will be a vote on the "deal", the Great Repeal Bill etc.
That is the deal or no deal, hardly democracy is it.
5+ your previous questions seem simeoneaht diesnegoenous since you are clearly firmly of one mindset and happy to simply stay in hyperbole land
What is the alternative you propose?
^^ indeed, butvthe no-deal is a viable and workable option. It's the same option the US, China etc use to trade with the EU.
TMH I use trade balances as an approximation for the potential benefits. A lot of our trade is tariff free (or minimal) under WTO. If you look at those who pay substantial amounts into the budget they have big trade surpluses. We are the odd one out.
mrmo - MemberAnd if a large subset of native born are incapable of doing the work we need doing because they are too special. It is why the English keep on bringing in foreigners after all what do you propose?
Plenty of times i have heard people say would get out of bed to do his or that, they would rather sit around on the dole scrounging and blaming foreigners for taking jobs they refuse to do.
It's moronic comments like that ^ which is partly the reason why I generally avoid commenting on this thread. Yesterday we had "Britain is racist and xenophobic" today we have "we lost the referendum to dole scroungers"......obviously half the electorate are dole scroungers.
"Britain is a nation of racist dole scroungers"......... It all has the intellectual qualities of Donald Trump and the Daily Mail.
Certain internet trolls posts here, bear a distinct resemblance to the 45th president of United States
It's not a good approximation/proxy and our trade deficit is not caused by Membership of the EU. Leaving it will not help either. Many of our current WTO and other trade deals will also need to be renegotiated so trade will be more difficult, more uncertainand more costly.. None of this is a positive
We already have trade deals in plase with 90% of our trading partners and we are throwing some of this away. Very, very odd logic. Still chin up.....
teamhurtmore - Member
5+ your previous questions seem simeoneaht diesnegoenous since you are clearly firmly of one mindset and happy to simply stay in hyperbole landWhat is the alternative you propose?
I am not of one mindset, I am truly on the fence, I am not armed with enough information to be able to say brexit or staying in the eu are good or bad ideas. There is masses of info on how the eu works for us, I can see its flaws, but I have yet to see any info on how brexit works for us, and I have not seen much democracy since then. 75% of tories were pro eu, the tory party were pro eu at the last GE, but now they are the opposite. This is confusing, the statistics around the opinion polls are confusing, it is all bloody confusing.
I am not sure what you want me to propose - I have nothing to propose on brexit for the afore mentioned reasons, I guess I could propose something about the process- transparency, a decent white paper outlining trade, immigration, patent law, human rights etc, and then 3 or 4 bills in parliament to approve the various changed processes, then invoke art 50. ie redesign the parachute before jumping.
Plus hyperbole? What have I exaggerated? Reading between the lines you seem to agree that the vote on the deal is just deal or no deal. What else?
it is all bloody confusing
Not really. Yes, MPs are pro EU, as are most people who realise it's about more than the shape of bananas. But they are ingratiating themselves to the electorate and fighting each other to be the Brexit party. Which is a downside of democracy - you can't do what you think is right, you have to do what the electorate wants, even if they don't know what they are doing.
Democracy only works if the electorate understand the issues.
Which is a downside of democracy - you can't do what you think is right, you have to do what the electorate wants, even if they don't know what they are doing.
Yes I can see you would drop your principles if its single issue, but our membership of the eu is a massive group of issues, possibly the most important part of the political landscape.
2ndly, in a representative democracy I believe the MP's role is to lead thought, not follow it. Otherwise we should just let the Sun run the country.
Dictatorship - a wee bit OTT don't you think?
Our European friends would be lapping up your proposed A50 timetable - please excuse us for a few years while we decide what we are going to do, exciuse he uncertainly but well, we're worth it. You don't mind it we delay negotiations until 2025 do you?
There is nothing confusing in a government saying it will hold a vote, respect the result and execute it whatever the outcome. The confusion comes from the tactics now being used to deny this. Mol even pretends this is undemocratic. That is just odd.
Dictatorship - a wee bit OTT don't you think?
No, her rhetoric is terrifying.
There is nothing confusing in a government saying it will hold a vote, respect the result and execute it whatever the outcome. The confusion comes from the tactics now being used to deny this. Mol even pretends this is undemocratic. That is just odd.
This is shifting the goalposts, I am not confused by the events, I am confused about how it will work or why it is a good idea. You know that, because that is what I have been asking.
PS I am sure the referendum bill said the ref was advisory.
butvthe no-deal is a viable and workable option
Living with some terrible illness or disability is 'viable and workable' but not necessarily desirable. I am glad to see Jamabalaya has acknowledged that 'viable and workable' is the best we can aspire to.