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At least you are not alone zokes - take comfort in that!
half of all people in work pay no tax
You're looking at income tax.
Now compare NI + income tax with Impôts sur le revenue + CSG/RDS + charges socilaes, in other words all direct taxes on earned income.
And don't forget that there has been a transfer for the tax burden to the regions so people will be paying:
Taxe foncière
Taxe d'habitation
Taxe foncière professionelle
Claming people in one of most taxed countries on the planet pay les tax in incorrect. The tax burden is more equitably spread, and that is a good thing but not seen as such by those rich banker types like you, Jamba. But then you pay tax in the UK rather than France (if you pay any at all being a banker type). 😉
It's a system, it's fairer, but the big corporations don't like it so abuse EU treaties to avoid tax in France by having offices in London, Luxembourg or Dublin. That is one abuse of the EU I'd like to see stopped. They're working on it apparently.
WHy not just engage rather than do this ? not only is he not alone no one is agreeing with you[ because what you said is clearly false] and you are not even trying to persuade anyone just be shitty/mocking to anyone who disagrees with you.
Its a very strange MO you have on here THM as all you want to do is be scornful and not actually bother to present an argument.
THM, I hoped I'd get a more sensible debate from you. Stop being a sad little child and try to grow up a little, you'll find it beneficial in the long run I'm sure.
But just as a hint: Scotland is currently a member of the UK, which is also (for now) a member of the EU. Scotland has some devolved powers from Westminster, but a lot are not. Westminster has some powers subjugated by Brussels, but a lot are not. If the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK but joins the EU it will gain far more powers from no longer being bound to Westminster than it would loose from being a member of the EU, which it currently is via the UK anyway.
Your argument makes no sense. You know that, but can't deal with it as being a little Tory you hate the SNP more than you hate arguments that make no sense, ergo cognitive dissonance. I suggest you try to spend a little longer formulating your arguments and you might actually come up with a vaguely logical position.
FWIW I try to avoid anything either fish-related politician says as I'm not a particularly big fan of either of them myself.
And just a point on currency. Right now, Scotland uses the GBP, a currency that it has no control over, and one that has lost >20% of its value in a few months (and indeed 10% in just one day at one point). If a condition of a future independent Scotland joining the EU was that it had to adopt the Euro, it would still be using a currency it has no control over. You could probably make some fairly convincing arguments about the Euro as a viable currency, but a GBP in a non-EU UK that's bled a huge chunk of its income and wealth in the process of leaving the EU doesn't sound too rosy either.
You're looking at [b]income[/b] tax.
I made that point. But there's no point. It's Jamba, just skip over his misdirections and create your own. It's 2017.
I presumed he meant Greece not France by the way…
Scotland is [u]currently[/u] a member of the UK
ahem:
[i]first day of May next ensuing the date hereof [u]and forever after[/u][/i]
😀
You see, not something that you can leave, unlike the EU with its pesky Article 50
but a GBP in a non-EU UK that's bled a huge chunk of its income and wealth in the process of leaving the EU doesn't sound too rosy either.
Even less rosy without Scotland.
A smaller UK, without Scotland, and outside the EU, and not operating in the Single Market, seemed an unimaginable nightmare only a few years ago… I wouldn't bet my home on it now…
Thanks for your generous advice zokes - it will be treated with the appropriate level of respect
But just as a hint: Scotland is currently a member of the UK, which is also (for now) a member of the EU. Scotland has some devolved powers from Westminster, but a lot are not. Westminster has some powers subjugated by Brussels, but a lot are not. If the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK but joins the EU it will gain far more powers from no longer being bound to Westminster than it would loose from being a member of the EU, which it currently is via the UK anyway.
To use your quote - this is what makes no sense. You clearly do not understand how the UK/EZ and common currencies work? Until you do, there is no sensible debate to be had.
But here's a hint - think about how surpluses are recycled within the UK but not within the EZ. Ask yourself why this is the case and what are the implications (the answers are in the last few pages). Then "spend a little longer formulating your arguments and you might (?) actually come up with a vaguely logical position".
You are correct - I do dislike the lies that the SNP tell, their track record and they way they deliberately confuse their own self-interests with the interests (sic) of the Scottish people. They are snake-oil salesmen with a poor reord of delivery. They use all the smokes and mirrors possible to confuse reality and rhetoric #SDBMB
and not operating in the Single Market,
Still having problems with this?
Nope.
In what sense is this a debate THM its just you trying to be clever saying **** all and pretending to be the brightest person in the room
You clearly do not understand how the UK/EZ and common currencies work? Until you do, there is no sensible debate to be had.
Look in the mirror THM. I fail to find any problem with Zokes' appreciation of the situation.
If you and Jamba knew anything at all about where Greek assets have gone over the last ten years you'd be talking about the problems caused by that financial rogue state Switzerland, not the Euro.
And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently
Any eight year old can probably tell you that if Dingwall left the UK and became an independent city-state then it would have a lot more control over its affairs than it does within the UK, or within an independent Scotland.
That doesn't make Independence For Dingwall a good idea.
True but that is not what he said he said independence led to sending of powers to elsewhere and , as you note, that is not true as something independent has more freedom than something devolved
Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?
the only way to think otherwise is to not understand the words meanings or to hate the SNP so much you will post BS whilst saying they are snake oil salesmen who spread BS ...Oh the irony
You are correct THM on what the SNP do to some degree[ what politicians dont?] what I have never understood is why you then do the same
Still they say the people we hate the most are the ones most like us...is that the reason?
For anyone thats interested, here's an excellent article on how big data, precise analytics, and spot-on targeting of FB articles swung Brexit and Trump:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-our-likes-helped-trump-win
Have we not done that to death Codybrennan?
Check out the articles showing that, while there is some truth in it, that Daz Magazin article is overblown.
[ edit - I've dug a short one up to save us time : http://boingboing.net/2017/02/01/trumps-big-data-secret-sau.html ]
I fail to find any problem with Zokes' appreciation of the situation.
Obviously. But two wrongs dont make a right.
If you and Jamba knew anything at all about where Greek assets have gone over the last ten years you'd be talking about the problems caused by that financial rogue state Switzerland, not the Euro.
FWIW, Jambas and I disagree on most aspects relating to Greece, other than the fact that Greek debt is unsustainable - a point I highlighted from the IMF report earlier.
Having spend a large part of the 90s/early naughties working closely with Greek banks, I am comfortable with my awareness of what has gone on - thank you.
If YOU fail to understand that the role of the € in the Greek crisis, then you are admitting all we need to know. But you are partially correct in pointing out the variety of factors involved.
ah dismissing again without evidence and an appeal to your own authority*
If this wont convince folk then what will ?
Still this SNP people eh god they are disingenuous aren't they 😉
Edukator
here are two good reads
Amazon try to flog Mason's book with them, but it is a very pale immitatian. In contrast Varoufakis is a much better argument.
codybrennan - Member
I know I've said this before and its anecdotal, but many of my anti-independence associates/family/friends are now firmly in favour of independence, if it gets offered again.
This^^^, anecodtally.... I have 4 cousins in Scotland, going by their FB
2 were pro indy, 2 I have no idea, ever since brexit all 4 have become ever more vocally pro indy, even the one who plays video games for a living and smokes a lot of weed has suddenly become political.
Post the Brexit vote May and the actions of the Brexiters (and corbyn) have succeeded in alienating them superbly
and my favourite Varoufakis quote
Encouraging free trade by removing tariffs and quotas may be combined profitably with attempts to fix exchange rates in order to make long-term prices more predictable for buyers and sellers, but to do this and at the same time allow for the free movement of money across borders is to ask for serious trouble. The reason for this is that when money is free to travel, during the good times it follows higher interest rates. Deficit countries offer higher rates and, given a fixed exchange rate, are very attractive for the excess money of surplus states. But this causes a build-up of debt in the deficit regions that goes bad at the first sign of an economic downturn. [b]For this reason, one of the few things economists tend to agree on is that the freedom of goods and money to travel unimpeded cannot be combined with fixed exchange rates, unless a political surplus recycling mechanism is also part of the deal.[/b]
Neither the Germans nor Jambas agree with this - they put the blame fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the poor Greeks.
You may recall the misguided response of the Scottish Nats when Carney was making essentially the same point. But then again, they didn't understand currencies either.
And some homework - what is required for a political surplus mechanism and then try to reconcile this with the BS currently coming from the SNP
i think it has just further highlighted to the Scots how being in the UK means doing what england wants not what Scotland wants an that being in the UK union may not be better than being in the EU union.
This is a big big issue to be overruled/ignored on and will clearly add to the wish to be independent from some waverers and just fuel the independent lot.
I expect a vote at some point that the rUK does not authorise and may not recognise - unless they win it.
Clearly the SNP will use any opportunity to try and gain independence - I am not sure this is a reason to despise them. I rather suspect your view on whether this is savvy or opportunistic rather depends on what you think of independence
[quote=Junkyard ]i think it has just further highlighted to the Scots how being in the UK means doing what england wants not what Scotland wants an that being in the UK union may not be better than being in the EU union.
This is a big big issue to be overruled/ignored on and will clearly add to the wish to be independent from some waverers and just fuel the independent lot.
I expect a vote at some point that the rUK does not authorise and may not recognise - unless they win it.
Clearly the SNP will use any opportunity to try and gain independence - I am not sure this is a reason to despise them. I rather suspect your view on whether this is savvy or opportunistic rather depends on what you think of independence
In the eyes of Jamba and his cohorts, my country of Scotland is not even a country at all, merely a region, therefore we have no sway...
Consider what would have happened in Greece without the Euro. So entry was fudged as they never met the conditions, because the structural problems were there before they joined the Euro zone.
The IMF has admitted grossly mismanaging the Greek and other Euro debt problems yet feels free to criticise when it is at heart of the problem. The IMF saved the banks, not Greece.
The key as far as I'm concerned is that anyone in Greece with any assets took part in a capital flight transferring their assets abroad. This is also what happened to the money injected into Greece by the IMF. It was laundered through Switzerland, barely transiting by Greece.
So there are a series of issues with the EURO as one of the minor issues that cause the crisis and a major factor in preventing the country going completely tits up. From the point of view of Greek citizens, the few Euros they have in their pockets are worth something, I doubt that would have been the case if they had hung on to drachmas, they'd have ended up with hyper inflation and worthless notes in their pockets. It would be nice if the money belonging to wealthy Greeks were being recycled in the Greek economy rather than festering in Swiss vaults.
finally a debate breaks out.
How many countries met the Maastricht criteria on entry?
Yes, their structural problems predates the €. The € simply made them worse.
The IMF did a very bad job, true. They are backtracking now hence the current stand off (you are following the Greek news now I assume)
Greek debt is unsustainable - I have stated this all along. It has to be restructured. The EZ merely kick this can, or what's left of it, down the road. making matters worse. Think about this Scotland!!
How did the Euro prevent it going tits up? That's very odd
Of course capital flight took place, why wouldnt it? Do you expect Greeks to have not learned from Argentina?? Why would a sane Greek person not transfer assets abroad?
Greek debt would have been sustainable with a lower interest rate at the start of the crisis. You'll find posts expressing my frustration at the German refusal to Eurobonds and the same interest rate for the whole Euro zone à la Fed on this forum since the hack. Banks have made a lot of money out of Greece paying 25% interest and yet they didn't have to take a risk as the IMF was there to finance the next round of debt. If Greece has the same interest rate as Germany (which hover around negative) any level of debt is sustainable.
The Euro is a hard currency so the Greeks have always had a currency to trade with, that has prevented Greece going tits up in the way Argentina did with money held in banks being lost and individuals and businesses going down with the banks.
Capital flight took place because people transferred assets legally (I agree, why wouldn't they), but illegally on a massive scale, with the help of the opacity provided by Switzerland. The Greek government couldn't track what was happening and enforce laws.
Britain would be in the same situation as Greece but for low interest rats which are justified by the strength of the pound. Greece has a strong currency but paradoxically pays high interest rates. Eurobonds are the answer.
Well why were rates not low? I have posted the basic Maths on debt sustainability many times. Greek debt is unsustainable - period.
Why do Eurobonds not exist? You are gettingn closer to why the € is/was flawed, keep going.
The euro created the conditions that led to the unsustainable position. If you don't trust me, read Varoufakis.
Free movement of capital - what does that mean?
No real questions there that aren't answered in my previous post.
I'm sure you know what free legal movement of capital is. Illegal movement of capital isn't free.
Ok, just dodge them
I do, true
No,,it's illegal
Your point?
THM - I make no comment on whether you are right or wrong on Scots independence.
I'm a Scots ex-pat in Yorkshire as many will know, and I oppose independence for all sorts of reasons, but I can see why it appeals to some.
What I would say is I think you're English (I may be wrong) and if I've got that right, then your opinion, right or wrong, will be as popular with the average Scots as a German explaining to an English audience why they should be ruled (in a devolved fashion of course) from Berlin.
Even if you are 100% right (especially this) then you are wrong.
But you know that I think.
For balance I think you're right in the Euro and Greek debt - much as I like the Euro as a concept it just doesn't work in reality.
Surely you are not suggesting that this is an anti-English thing?
IIRC when Canadians pour cold water on the hot iS lies, they were not that popular either!
(But the alleged debate is flawed. The UK is well designed and can and does work, The Euro zone is badly designed and can't and doesn't work. That aside.....)
Simple point is the scottish are not likely to to be won over by a ranting englishman telling them how nice the union is for them and to stop being so stupid. I understand why you sidestepped the blindingly obvious point with a feeble straw man
The reality is someone like you - right wing tory english is unlikely to help win a vote for remain in muh the same way a pre european german would not have helped remain.
TBH it would be so bad I would imagine the SNP would pay for you to do a tour
The UK is well designed and can and does work if you are english
FTFY
The reality is this vote is an example of it not working for Scotland and always working for the english who do not get outvoted.
No THM - I'm suggesting that it can come across as "you guys need us grown ups to look after you" - a bit patronising.
Whether it's true or not and whether you intend it or not.
And yes much as I love the euro concept, the implementation is broken and I see no practicable way to fix it.
TBH it would be so bad I would imagine the SNP would pay for you to do a tour
😀 tru dat.
Truth is had to swallow some times IGM !
I love the concept of the single market but understand why the € is fundamentally flawed. Separate things. It can't work for very good reasons and on top of that the key elements are missing. The amusing thing for someone who gets accused of certain political biases, is how so-called lefties tolerate the appalling social and economic repercussions that stem from ignoring these basic facts. In contrast, I abhor them which is why I agree with a lot (not all) of what Varoufakis says. As he notes, there are some things that even economists can agree on.
But the ignorance that lies behind it is a the heart of your first point too. 😉
BTW, who is going to shut the window, you or me? Think it needs to be open a wee bit longer yet....quite strong today. Could be the prevailing wind.
The amusing thing for someone who gets accused of certain political biases
Are you still wanting to claim you are politically neutral 😯
Bit delusional seeing as you then followed it up with a cheap dig at the lefties - funny how there are never any at the righties eh
I have no idea why you get so upset when folk point out you are a right winger. We all have biases on here no one is neutral so why sell the snake oil you just look like a right winger who struggles with the truth and that is not a character improvement
Are you still wanting to claim you are politically neutral
You can't be politically neutral - THM claims to be not party aligned, IIRC. There's a difference.
He's clearly somewhat to the right on the traditional spectrum.
well we only have one traditionally right of the spectrum party and he does - or at least has- claimed to be politically neutral.
He may actually be more impartial[ we mean centrist dont we] than most but that is not what he has claimed[ though he might now just to smite me]
I love the concept of the single market but understand why the € is fundamentally flawed.
Agreed. Doesn't stop me wishing the € wasn't fundamentally flawed though. Sadly I have to accept it is.
Shall we leave the window to see if young Nicola calls Indy 2 on the same day (not)mother Theresa calls A50 - make it easier to hear the commotion.
Different spectrum mol, different spectrum.
I am party agnostic, Issues interest me, parties much less so (except for amusement purposes of course, then they are brilliant and compelling in equal measure)
IGM, IIRC it's not her decision, but that apart.....
Scotsman (daily reading) has article on ground work being made with some choice comments underneath!!
If you like the idea of a single currency union - and there are reasons in the right context and the correct design - then by defintion you have to be in favour of the UK for the current member nations. It's a non-sequitur to argue otherwise.h
(I am keeping the window open for a while yet)
Scotsman - not the paper it was...
If you like the idea of a single currency union - and there are reasons in the right context and the correct design - then by defintion you have to be in favour of the UK for the current member nations.
I am - but I can understand why some aren't. And I agree that belief in currency union leads towards belief in political union fairly quickly.
Nah, its pro the Union!
Edit: so can I its a natural consequence of post truth politics. Indeed in its current form it was the birthplace. #SDBMB