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Brooess, you are correct that you hopes are misplaced: (1) TM doesn't believe in such a distinction; (2) she is currently pitched in the middle of the range of options and more like to compromise towards the softer end of the spectrum.. Other than that....
So how well has Ken Clarke down?
1. Like many of us, lost the argument - cross
2. Decided to ignore the result - cross
3. Achieved no delay and no amendments - cross
4. Happy in himself, looked less of a fool that Dianne Abbott - tick, but not hard
1/4 is not a great result is it?
Why are you having a go at Ken Clarke?
I am not, I am having a go at the idea that he has already done a good job. He hasn't. He has behaved as expected but with little impact either way. Ok he has been more effective that leader of HM Opposition, but since the bill has been passed without delay and/or ammendements that is not saying much.
If you want to criticise KC, you could of course point to his desire to join the folly that is/was the € but we all know that by now.l
If you want to criticise KC, you could of course point to his desire to join the folly that is/was the € but we all know that by now.l
Not "all", not joining the Euro cost Britain trade and holiday makers. The fluctuating pound has been a handicap for some (currency traders excluded). Britain would have doen better with it IMO.
Well, at least you added IMO when flying in the face of all the evidence.
Cos he's now achieved national treasure status as an honest politician?
Ken that is - I have no opinion on THM.
He is delightful company and brilliant after dinner speaker. Getting v v frail these days though.
Only to be expected.
He has got very good mileage out of two ties - one in particular....
You want evidence about something that never happened, THM. There is no point of comparison. An opportunity was missed but unfortunately there is no proof of how well Britain would have done with the Euro as it never happened.
Can we apply that same test nest time someone tells us how good the EU has been for us?
[i]I am not, I am having a go at the idea that he has already done a good job. He hasn't. He has behaved as expected but with little impact either way. Ok he has been more effective that leader of HM Opposition, but since the bill has been passed without delay and/or ammendements that is not saying much.[/I]
So you're saying whenever there is to be a vote (on any subject) all participants should first work out who they think will win, and just vote that way - in fact they should do this before any debate, and if they think it's a win (either way), just not have the debate either and just vote?
An unoposed bill is another gift for Sturgeon and her cause.
Proof that Westminster is not bothered about Scottish interests
4. Happy in himself
Nothing wrong with MPs voting for what they think is right.
MPs [b]should[/b] be voting in a fashion that makes them "happy in themselves", rather than voting as lobby fodder for two flawed leaders, neither of which seem to want the government held to account by MPs when it comes to the big changes ahead.
So everyone goes on about how it's terrible how guarantees haven't been made to EU nationals in the UK, but the amendment to do just that fails. As does the one about money for the NHS.What a bunch of absolute spineless cowards those [b][s]Leave[/s][/b] politicians are.
Fixed.
You need to remember there were more Remain than Leave politicians voting on those amendments.
Your distain needs spreading a bit wider.
You want evidence about something that never happened, THM. There is no point of comparison. An opportunity was missed but unfortunately there is no proof of how well Britain would have done with the Euro as it never happened.
So lets look at the evidence:
1. The Euro Area does not fulfil the criteria for a single currency - fail #1
2. Ingoring 1, the Euro was badly designed with two key elements missing - fail #2
3. Ignoring 1 and 2 (get the driftt?), the Euro was badly executed from the start - fail #3
4. Without the missing elements (2), the inevitable surpluses have not been recycled - fail #4
5. Countries with high labour costs have had to suffer catastrophic levels of youth unemployment and wage deflation - fail #5
{this is looking good so far, isnt it?]
6. Monetary policy has been ineffective - fail #6
7. Growth has been below trend - fail #7
Do we need any more? Right in front of our eyes we can see how and why the € has failed. How much more evidence do you need?
Good job we missed that opportunity.
I'll substitute success for failure for five of those and point out that the high labour cost issue is not currency related. The countries with the highest levels of youth employment are those with the lowest wages, and unemployment was an issue in those countries before the Euro. When I worked in Spain in 88/89 unemployment was around 20%.
You are blaming the euro for structural problems that are not currency related and ignoring the benefits of easier trad, mobility of everything and the currency stability being a member of a big currency block gives. There has been low inflation and slow moving exchange rates for a couple of decades, that's great for business.
I'll substitute success for failure for five of those
You may, but you would be simply incorrect. The evidence is crystal clear.
and point out that the high labour cost issue is not currency related.
True, but a fixed currencies mean that there are only two policy options - wage deflation, unemployment - we have seen a dramatic shift in both with appalling social consequences.
The countries with the highest levels of youth employment are those with the lowest wages, and unemployment was an issue in those countries before the Euro.
Partially true - not bad
You are blaming the euro for structural problems that are not currency related
No I am not.
and ignoring the benefits of easier trad, mobility of everything and the currency stability being a member of a big currency block gives. There has been low inflation and slow moving exchange rates for a couple of decades, that's great for business.
No again! My opposition to Brexshit is very much around easier trade, free movement of everything arguments. Both real benefits.
I was also encouraged that we were not part of the flawed currency regime. We had a great deal. It was that that was "great for business" not membership of the €.
Not "all", not joining the Euro cost Britain trade and holiday makers. The fluctuating pound has been a handicap for some (currency traders excluded). Britain would have doen better with it IMO.
😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯
You (eurozone taxpayer) are propping up a country where the average medical professional earns €40k pa but declares €15k and half of all people in work pay no tax (EU avg 8%). You are doing this so your own currency / economy doesn't collapse under the weight of contagion to a big portion of other eurozone members.
Read this yeasterday
http://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/CR/2017/cr1740.ashx
Those of us not in manufacturing had the ideal deal (in EU but outside Eurozone) but it could be argued that our manufacturing base would be very different now if we'd been inside both, we'll never know.
Also, someone made a valid point just now… many years down the line we'll never know how much better off we'd have been staying in the EU, so leavers will always be able to dismiss the idea that the more damaging path was taken.
The telling quote from that Jambas:
Debt relief: Even with these ambitious policies in place, [b]Greece cannot grow out of its debt
problem. Greece requires substantial debt relief [/b]from its European partners to restore debt
sustainability.
The Germans dont understand/wont accept this. That is why G is screwed. This is all part of the flawed construct of the EZ - its inevitable
An unoposed bill is another gift for Sturgeon and her cause.
Proof that Westminster is not bothered about Scottish interests
Scotland's interests are best served by being outside the EU but remaining in the Union
SNP's interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK
half of all people in work pay no [b][ income ][/b] tax.
This is also true of the UK.
SNP interests do not equal interest of Scottish people - simple!
Kelvin - any source for that?
Nope, I made it up.
I'm applying Jamabafaction to all my replies to him now. I was relying on others letting it slide…
Scotland's interests are best served by being outside the EU but remaining in the Union
Ah hah!
So you agree that the democratic result (Scotland voting remain) isn't always in the electorate's best interests?
Checkmate.
Nope, I made it up.
Fair do's 😀
"Scotland's interests are best served by being outside the EU but remaining in the Union"
Why? As far as Scotland is concerned, Westminster is effectively an undemocratic supranational power with apparently little interest in the wants and needs of the Scottish people. I thought those were some of the key issues the brexiteers had with the EU?
I don't think that's the case. A post-independence SNP will struggle to make it to a second term of government (I'll assume they'd form the first) as the various factions will struggle to hold together without the common goal of independence. I think the Tories might do quite well, Greens would gain. Labour? Who knows. It's possible that they'll have so diminished as a political force by then.SNP's interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK
As far as Scotland is concerned, Westminster is effectively an undemocratic supranational power with apparently little interest in the wants and needs of the Scottish people.
odd that they voted in the way they did then?
But just for fun, lets assume that you are correct. Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels?
Even an eight year old can see that that is "pish"
odd that they voted in the way they did then?
Not really. I suspect that for all it's faults they feel that an outward-looking progressive EU better matches their political views than an inward-looking Westminster riven with little englanders harking back to the days of empire.
I'll grant you that economically it probably doesn't make too much sense, but as we've already firmly established that economics play second fiddle in these arguments, I can't see much difference.
And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently. So I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make unless it was to further highlight your cognitive dissonance on this thread.
"pish" indeed
(dont forget the Welsh and N Irish BTW)
But bravo on bringing in some of Alex's rhetoric from last night. He was on a roll wasnt he - down the wrong slope, but on a roll nonetheless.
I see you're only resorting to dismissing an argument as "pish" when it's an argument you've comprehensively lost. Pretty poor form imo
an inward-looking Westminster riven with little englanders harking back to the days of empire.
Strange, I thought that they were leading us into becoming the 51st State of the USA?
Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?
Even an eight year old can see that that is "pish"
why did you say it then?
we all know the high regard you have for scotland but you would need to be spectacularly inept to think an independent scotland within the EU has not got more freedom than a devolved parliament - the words alone tell you which has the greatest autonomy.
aye what they need is the insight of another english tory telling them that - if only you could convince the scottish electorate of this.SNP interests do not equal interest of Scottish people - simple!
All this is is yet another example of THM going i hate the SNP and I know what is best for the scottish people- with the usual childish name calling.
We get it you hate the SNP- FWIW it seems pretty clear that a party that campaigned on staying in the EU representing a country that voted to remain should vote to remain/not vote for A 50 - its just democratic. You can disagree with the electorate but its particularly daft to attack them for doing what they said they would and what their electorate want.
We get it you hate the SNP no matter what they do and say we have all worked this out so stop using silly arguments to further highlight how your hatred has overcome your intellect.
THM I think the die has been cast for an indie scotland now, unless a hard brexit can be avoided, which i seriously doubt.
as you are so fond of pointing out its time to make the best of a bad situation, just as with Brexshit
they may as well just get on with indyref2 so we can all get to work trying to make things better
get a room. 😀
SNP's interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK
how do you figure that!?
SNP has no reason to exist after independence from UK is achieved.
bit like, err, UKIP frinstance.
Boot. Other foot. Enjoy.
And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently.
😀 No really - your (mis)understanding of what is happening in the EZ knows no bounds. Ditto devolved power. But, fair enough, you did say that you cant see much difference. Guilt admitted.
So I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make unless it was to further highlight your cognitive dissonance on this thread.
Those are very big words. Send a tweet to alex, he could find a use for them.
It is 'pish" clearly but I look forward to it being spun - just stay upwind would be my advice
I know I've said this before and its anecdotal, but many of my anti-independence associates/family/friends are now firmly in favour of independence, if it gets offered again.
And also- trying to apply the "but it makes sense for Scotland to stay, cos: facts!" argument falls spectacularly on its face post-Brexit, which shows that people aren't interested in facts any more- we've debated that to death on this thread, and I hold that to be the new truth.
So, anything can happen.
"Queen Nicola" for instance?
Cody, once the dust has settled, they will see sense
The UK has all the criteria for a single currency area
It has all of the elements in place - it works
Surpluses are recycled across the UK and there is political accountability
Regions have growing levels of devolved power
The UK will continue to have access to the single market post Brexshit
...but lets throw that away in a fit of pique??? A few hot-heads aside, Scots are too canny to fall for that.
"And also- trying to apply the "but it makes sense for Scotland to stay, cos: facts!" argument falls spectacularly on its face post-Brexit,"
...and this is why there will never be another Referendum unless the establishment don't GAF which way it goes.
And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently.
No one can seriously argue against this, I wouldn't, and I desperately want Scotland to stay in the UK.
What is even more worrying, is how Westminster's increased powers in a few years time (it is they who are getting "their country back" after all), will further shift that equation.
Depressingly for the Scots though, they do not have the option of being outside the UK, but inside the EU.
have you considered explaining why this is true rather than just dismissing it?No really - your (mis)understanding of what is happening in the EZ knows no bounds
An INDEPENDENT nation MUST have more power than a DEVOLVED nation
Its not even debatable and if it is it is with an intellectual point rather than your usual scorn for those not as bright as you - which is ironic given how wrong you are being
The UK will continue to have access to the single market post Brexshit
Access but it seems quite unlikely we will be a part of it
No one can seriously argue against this
I have never accused THM of being serious on here 😉