[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

So what if we do pay out more than we get back? It's not a savings account. The money goes to those in need. Or at least, it should.

I dont personally have a problem with rich regions helping poorer ones be it within the UK or with in the EU

Some folk are more "selfish"or think more nationally or are less altruistic - actually best let them explain their position as I am not able to do so without using negative words.

Quite a lot of people seem to think we 'should look after our own first'.

Why? Foreign people don't matter or something? Grr.

Quick question on all the "save the NHS" rhetoric in last night's broadcast. If we do leave has anyone made any commitment about how they'd spend the money that no longer goes to the EU (however much it really is)?

Unemployment benefit 😉

Junky our net contribution after rebate and grants is £8.5bn so that chart is miles off whether you found it via Google or not

Is closer to the correct figure (there are various ways of cacluatling this) although this still ignores other money we get back. But for now, let's stick with this. So given that we are agreed on this number (caveats accepted) how do you arrive at the figure plastered across the BS battlebus and stats used in a lot of the [s]Propoganda[/s] (sorry a bit of Bojo slipping in there) "out" material?

Everyone knows that we do not send £350m a week. That is a clear attempt to mislead and is shameful.

Odd that in the constant deperation to bait you Jambas (!!!!) the wrong figures were also used. (2007 data above) but perhaps wifi reception is poor under a bridge 😉 Google really is your friend!!

Of course none of this takes into account the benefits that we receive from being a member so it's all bollocks anyway

What a great debate! Makes your proud doesn't it!!!

If we do leave has anyone made any commitment about how they'd spend the money that no longer goes to the EU

How d'you think? Tax breaks to the rich, of course!

[b]There is no definitive study of the economic impact of the UK’s EU membership or the costs and benefits of withdrawal. Framing the aggregate impact in terms of a single number, or even irrefutably demonstrating that the net effects are positive or negative, is a formidably difficult exercise.[/b]

This is because many of the costs and benefits [b]are subjective or intangible. [/b]It is also because a host of assumptions must be made to reach an estimate. If the UK were to leave the EU, assumptions must be made about the terms on which this would be done and how Government would fill the policy vacuum left in areas where the EU currently has competence. If the UK were to remain in the EU, assumptions would need to be made about how policy in the EU would develop. Estimates of the costs and benefits of EU membership are likely to be highly sensitive to such assumptions.

But let's not let this stop the fun!!!!

Junkyard - lazarus

shamby the only useful fact gleamed there was that you did not bother to read the links ;we already knew you would object to reality and the facts.

The fact I gleamed was that you posted up 10 year old data as if it were current.

So [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36362047 ]Sturgeon has a good point of view[/url] (it is irritating that she's so sensible 'cos I want Scotland to remain in the UK).

The debate seems to be entirely framed by penny-pinching with a tendency to nationalistic rhetoric.

@molgrips - NHS, farming, British manufacturing, small businesses, reducing budget deficit. Rich earners pay far more tax now than they did in the 2000's (top rate 45+2=47, no tax free allowance, higher vat and they spend more on vat-able items of course etc) top 1% now pay 28% of all income taxes. EU is a massive tax avoidance scam for corporates who abuse its tax rules and cross border trade rules

Junky the UK/Germany only net contributors statement made on Sky was over our membership, our contributions have increased markedly (eg £1bn in 2000's to £8.5bn net recently and if/when we outperform rest of EU they will go up) so charts such as you posted (with wrong numbers) are a singke year snapshot of a moving - for other members - feast.

For those saying our budget contribution isn't that much its reported its the equivalent of 3p of income tax (will check it later) or 10% extra on VAT (checked that) 😯

This made me laugh today (as opposed to the Treasury's marketing slide which had recession is large red font - so much for reasoned analysis)

[img] [/img]

And the £350m banner?

Jambas - re the farmers, they get a further rebate from our net figure, so probbaly a bad example to choose

The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall.

Source: full facts

So what if we do pay out more than we get back? It's not a savings account. The money goes to those in need. Or at least, it should

exactly. and who’s needs will be taken into account with a Brexit? not yours and mine thats for sure, the reason i’m voting to stay in is that i feel the powers that be will have free reign to do as they please outside of the EU constraints and that means screw your people as much as you think you can’t away with. be it fracking in the pursuit of cheaper dirty energy, workers rights, consumer rights, pollution controls etc etc.
at least crapping on your people is done under the scrutiny of your neighbours in the E.U.

the E.U. isn’t perfect but i would much prefer to be part of it than outside it.

@DaRC £8.5bn per year is hardly penny pinching nor is pointing oit the £7bn annual wastage at the EU or the corruption, lack of accountsbility or lack of democracy overly nationalistic. All I am asking for as vote leave is the same level of independence as Canada, Australia and the US.

On trade its really interesting that both candidates in the Austrian governmet are against TTIP and innthe US both Republicans and Democrats (inc Clinton) are lining up to say NAFTA was a bad deal. Perhaps no trade agreements are a good thing, certainly to me what we pay for the EU free trade agreement is a very very high price indeed

Workers rights. Look at whats happening in the rest of the EU, they are trying to make their workers rights more like ours. This is because overly generous workers rights cost jobs as our competitors in Asia, Latin America amd the US don't have them. France with generous workers rights has 8% general and 25% youth unemployment, thats why Hollande is trying to force change through via Presidential decree and without hisnown socialist party's consent in parliament.

Using the EU to try and protect workers rights is a crazy strategy, look at the majority of unskilled, low skilled or unemployed who are pro Leave (economist study). Its no good having employment rights if that job was taken by someone else on lower wages who is sending the money back home to their family.

A high price?

Significant increases in volume of trade at reduced transaction costs. Bloody bargain in my mind.

But to come back to some hard facts for a moment - I am not a campaigner and so have no access to [s]Propoganda[/s] marketing materials. So please from an outers perspective can I have the answers to

1. Why the false £350m claim (nb the use of the word "send" in the banner
2. The UK's role in the ESF - happy to get the answers to all the questions posed in this before, but one will do

I will leave it there.... (for now 😉 )

Its no good having employment rights if that job was taken by someone else on lower wages who is sending the money back home to their family

Sauce?

jambalaya - Member
Workers rights. Look at whats happening in the rest of the EU, [b]they are trying to make their workers rights more like ours[/b]

Which are currently governed by EU rules...

i feel the powers that be will have free reign to do as they please outside of the EU constraints and that means screw your people as much as you think you can’t away with.

except that we can vote out our government if we don't agree with their policies/what they are doing, but we have sod all influence over the EU.

EU Budget Contributions. Just to reiterate our contributions net of rebate and eu grants to the UK is £8.5bn which equivalent to 10% of the total £87bn we collect in VAT (all VAT inc services, new cars etc)

In the interests of balamce I will conceed that the £8.5bn we give to the EU each year is small in comparison to the excessive, disastrous and ruinous £75bn annual budget deficit, ie the amount we spend each year over and above our income.

Jam, can you tell me what is the problem with donating money to help poorer economies?

but we have sod all influence over the EU

Did you vote in EU elections?

In the interests of balamce I will conceed that the £8.5bn we give to the EU each year is small

So the idea that we pay a very high price is also incorrect? 😉

Progress!!

Now - why the £350m a week lie on the battlebus and the materials and what is our role in the ESF?

but we have sod all influence over the EU.

😀

TurnerGuy - Member
we have sod all influence over the EU.

More than we have over the Lords. If accountability is one of your reasons for voting leave are you also campaigning for a reformed upper house?

Jam, can you tell me what is the problem with donating money to help poorer economies?

Three biggest net beneficiaries of EU funding are Hungary, Poland and Romania

Romania - 2015 Budget Deficit 0.7% GDP
Poland - 2015 Budget Deficit 2.6% GDP
Hungary - 2015 Budget Deficit 1.9% GDP

United Kingdom - 2015 Budget Deficit 4.4%

So, your question ought to be:

Jam, can you tell me what is the problem with [s]donating[/s] borrowing money to help [s]poorer[/s] more successful economies?

Can you phrase that question again? What is the point - all countries running budget deficits, who are the more successful economies in that list and on what basis?

You can do better than that

except that we can vote out our government if we don't agree with their policies/what they are doing, but we have sod all influence over the EU.

and look at what we voted in at the last election and how they are keeping their ‘election promises’.
and if that government was now ruling outside the rules of the E.U?

Yep, they promised austerity and delivering a surplus (at the wrong time mind!) - ba******!

Not sure that the EU has had any impact on any of this though 😉

TBF to the outers - the EU rules (designed to overcome the flawed design, yes I know) show that they do not understand how to address balance sheet recessions. Probably why the rules are ignored - the outers do have us on that one!!

Which are currently governed by EU rules...

@molgrips I am in favour of supporting poorer countries, India, ****stan and those in Africa and Middle East for example as we already do, UK far more generous in international support than rest of the EU. Choosing which countries to support should be our decision and need not come with all tye nonsense of the EU.

@MrSmith quite right, they've stalled on their promise to replace the ECHR with a British Bill answerable to the British courts as they well know the EU will block it

in the meantime the rules will have stunted growth and seen us fall further behind.

Really? I wont ask for the sauce??? 😉

You are correct on international aid. We are more generous that the other large EU countries which just shows that choosing which countries to support and by how much is OUR decision.

So now't to do with vote!

and need not come with all tye nonsense of the EU.

Nothing like a balanced viewpoint eh Jam? 🙂

Three biggest net beneficiaries of EU funding are Hungary, Poland and Romania

Romania - 2015 Budget Deficit 0.7% GDP
Poland - 2015 Budget Deficit 2.6% GDP
Hungary - 2015 Budget Deficit 1.9% GDP

United Kingdom - 2015 Budget Deficit 4.4%

What are those countries' structural problems and what are their chances of addressing their deficits? What are their credit ratings? What are their standards of living like? How much are everyday people struggling?

This whole debate is ****ing futile, it's just people trying to manipulate stats to back up the positions they've already decided upon.

It comes down to ONE thing - do you want to tell our neighbours to **** off? Me - no, I don't.

What differences would there be between the 'British Bill of Rights' and the ECHR?

This is because overly generous workers rights cost jobs as our competitors in Asia, Latin America and the US don't have them.

in the meantime the rules will have stunted growth and seen us fall further behind.

Three biggest net beneficiaries of EU funding are Hungary, Poland and Romania

@molgrips I am in favour of supporting poorer countries, India, ****stan and those in Africa and Middle East

I'm unconvinced by either project 'rose tinted glasses' or project 'fear'

whilst both talk about how great everything is or could be ... an improved outcome is dependent upon high quality politicians which neither side have

It comes down to ONE thing - do you want to tell our neighbours to **** off? Me - no, I don't.

You complain about the futility of the discussion and then come out with simplistic rubbish like the above.

You complain about the futility of the discussion and then come out with simplistic rubbish like the above.

What I meant was - the way that most people will vote comes down to that sentiment, rather than the actual issues. They will cherry pick interpretations to back up their predetermined point of view based on that sentiment.

an improved outcome is dependent upon high quality politicians which neither side have

completely agree

why oh why do we keep voting kippers into MEP seats?

despite using the EU fishing policy as a tool to try and lever more votes...

Farige bothered to attended 1 of 42 EU fisheries committee meetings he sat on for 3 years, still managed to claim €100,000s in expenses

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85563e82-8f44-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#axzz49ZatOYNO

Junky the UK/Germany only net contributors statement made on Sky

I'm unconvinced by either project 'rose tinted glasses' or project 'fear'

whilst both talk about how great everything is or could be ... an improved outcome is dependent upon high quality politicians which neither side have

the EU is frankly a sideshow, albeit an important one! Membership does not tackle the fundamental problem of an economy weighed down by excess leverage and the fact that we are in a balance sheet recession

We are wasting time (yes, get the irony) debating this issue, when we should be concentrating on much more important issues

There are a lot of passionate posts for/against on this forum and many others, and much of the media content for weeks has been about the referendum.
However, I have just checked, and we have had just one leaflet from a pro-Brexit campaign but not from the official leave campaign as it was before they were chosen and it was a different lot ( can't remember exactly who as it went in the bin straight away)
We have had two pro-Remain leaflets and the 'official' UK govt. one, but again I don't think either of the former were from the official remain group. All the leaflets have come through the post, not hand delivered
My question is, therefore, where is all the money being spent?
No one has come knocking on the door, no phone calls about it. Nada. That would suggest no one is passionate enough about it to go and campaign face to face in our locality ( and of course I include myself in that group).

@jimw Remain have a lot more money (corporate donations and government money) so are posting leaflets. Leave we hand deliver them so if there isn't a volunteer in your area you won't have seen one. Plenty of info on the website (voteleavetakecontrol.org) or on the facebook page. Campaigning for Leave as far as I am aware has been at events like bus tour and stalls (I've done two of those) there is no house to house stuff.

@Junky despite what you think I didn't just make it up 😉 and yes in the last year for which there is data its not true as there are a handful of others who make much more modest donations.

Which cannot ignore reality and will migrate towards our position, in the meantime the rules will have stunted growth and seen us fall further behind.

Fact or jambafact?.....

[img] [/img]

@mrleb so why was Obama so keen to re-focus the US on Asia at Europe's expense ?

@mrleb so why was Obama so keen to re-focus the US on Asia at Europe's expense ?

Why don't you just answer the question?

(Answering a question with a question does not constitute an acceptable answer FYI)

IMHO - the US has far closer ties to Asia than us economically so it makes sense for them to focus on that I think...though I have no facts to back that up - its just my opinion.

Now, over to you - your opinion or fact? Please state for our listeners..