In order to increase trade you to agree to common/different standards, you have to remove your tariffs etc. These are all exercises in giving up sovereignty. It cannot be avoided unless you want to simply [s]play[/s] trade with yourself.
Its classic Brexshit BS - #fakecontrol
So you're saying the country that buys the stuff we sell dictates to us the how we have to make it, interesting......
yes, clearly
So you're saying the country that buys the stuff we sell dictates to us the how we have to make it, interesting......
Only of we want to sell to them, otherwise we just have to meet our home sovereign standard.
Serious question as I don't know - do many companies make two versions of a product, for EU and non-EU sale?
I can only speak for one set of (complex) products but in practice you can usually build one product that meets the standards of all the countries you export to.
But yes, I'm sure there are conflicting standards where if you want address both markets you have to make a slightly different product for each market.
But it's not just different specs - there are different fashions and different preferences. Each market is slightly different a product that sells well in Germany might not sell well in Italy.
These are all exercises in giving up sovereignty.
I'm still at a loss as to why this is giving up sovereignty, we just discuss and agree on a harmonised standard? Which bit of this is giving up sovereignty?
Serious question as I don't know - do many companies make two versions of a product, for EU and non-EU sale?
Liek cars I guess, we have Eu standard cars and US market cars don't we?
I don't know, I haven't made any claims about sovereignty. I am just exploring the relative merits of this free trade idea. It seems the proposal is that to make trade easier, instead of having trade area standards harmonisation, each country can have it's own standards, but if it wants to trade with another country it may well have to manufacture a bit differently for those products and then meet inspection and customs requirements on import. Seems to add a bit of cost and red tape right?
We seem to have moved off sovereignty but since you ask: No, in my example there is no additional cost or red tape when two countries mutually waive import duties.
And presumably when you have a FTA or trade under the WTO rules you have an independent arbiter who resolves disputes and you've given up sovereignty there.......
In order to increase trade you to agree to common/different standards, you have to remove your tariffs etc. These are all exercises in giving up sovereignty. It cannot be avoided unless you want to simply play trade with yourself.
Nope, mutually waiving tarrifs isn't giving up sovereignty.
You give up your control/elements of control over the issue - not suggesting this is a bad or good thing - it just is.
Its like marriage/relationships - to gain from them, you inevitably make compromises. You are stronger for doing so.
And presumably when you have a FTA or trade under the WTO rules you have an independent arbiter who resolves disputes and you've given up sovereignty there
I've no idea - but since you never had authority over that in the first place you can't have given up anything.
No, in my example there is no additional cost or red tape when two countries mutually waive import duties.
What about the cost of making a product to a different standard, and the cost of inspection to ensure the product meets the other countries standard? How is that paid for? And it is extra red tape in that now we have to understand a different set of rules for each target export country?
We may have to invest in additional equipment/manufacturing methods for each market place we sell in to?
Regardless of whether we're in the EU or not, the UK has chronically poor productivity compared to other western economies as well as an acute shortage of technical skills, dominated by an ageing workforce demographic and dependence on imported skills. In many technical skills we have a structural deficit in the region of 50,000 jobs/year that can't be filled - half of the skilled workforce in some sectors will retire in the next 10 years. We no longer have the capability to manage our own major infrastructure projects without significant numbers of highly skilled Poles, Slovaks etc. Any notion that we can simply grow our economy into highly competitive export markets is a fallacy when you don't have the workforce to deliver it - something sadly those in Government are ignoring.
And now we're discovering dependence, independence and interdependence.
Bit late but that's life.
You give up your control/elements of control over the issue
Control over what issue? There's no control given up at all.
What abiut the cost of making a product to a different standard, and the cost of inspection to ensure the product meets the other countries standard?
That's not changed by mutually waiving tariffs.
Control over what issue? There's no control given up at all.
Well if there is no tariff you cannot control how much comes n, it is free trade right, so they might be cheaper and sell much more into our market place than we sell out?
Control over what issue? There's no control given up at all.
Please give us some examples then of product standards that don't require surrendering some control.
That's not changed by mutually waiving tariffs.
Of course it is, in the EU there is one standard, one manufacturing method for any particular product - if I am making products for many markets, just because there is no import tariff doesn't mean I can suddenly waive the extra manufacturing cost and red tape of making a diff product and inspecting it?
FYI outofbreath, I am neutral, I just want to understand the issues, so appreciate your effort in explaining them.
Hes not explaining them, hes just saying you dont give up control with no examples
WTO 'rules require minimum standards on labour laws
patent protection
environmental standards etc etc
Any disputes have be settled under the WTOs own set of regulations
Oh god, what have i started????
Kimbers and 5plus8, I don't think either of you have understood my example. It was the simplest deal I could think of so I can't make it any simpler and since I only offered it to explore if Sovereignty always had to be traded away in a trade deal, and that question has been answered to my satisfaction, there's not much benefit in continuing down this rat hole. Sorry!
Kimbers and 5plus8, I don't think either of you have understood my example. It was the simplest deal I could think of so I can't make it any simpler and since I only offered it to explore if Sovereignty always had to be traded away in a trade deal, and that question has been answered to my satisfaction, there's not much benefit in continuing down this rat hole. Sorry!
Listen I think we agree about sovereignty, I dont see the loss of sov in a trade deal either way, but I just want you to explain how making products to different standards to suit diff markets doesn't cost more than only having to make it to a single standard. I am sure you have an explanation. Please don't give up.
We don't "lose" sovereignty by being in the EU, we *share* sovereignty.
To follow my marriage analogy, that is wonderfully romantic captain... 😉
Of course it costs more to produce products for different markets with different standards.
Just think of electrical products, they need different plugs, and you also need to have your instructions translated etc...
Of course it costs more to produce products for different markets with different standards.
Just think of electrical products, they need different plugs, and you also need to have your instructions translated etc...
Indeed, although the translation thing is a one off, I can see you would need an importer or agent in the target country to handle warranties etc. Many EU companies doing all that direct now. (Eg YT, Canyon etc)
Still might not be the end of the world, I just want to know why doing trade this way is better than harmonised standards, either way according to outofbreath there is no loss of sovereignty so that's not the issue. For example he said zero tarrif = no loss of sov, that by his definition is the same as the current EU arrangement.
teamhurtmore - Member
Oh god, what have i started????
You are David Cameron and I claim my [s]£5[/s] €5
That's not changed by mutually waiving tariffs.
Mutual? If you're trading with economies much larger than yours, you take what you're given to a large extent. Seen the tariff arrangement Switzerland negotiated with China? That's hardly mutual, is it?
And what are we likely to get from the US? Cheap, shitty meat, whether we like it or not, and a farming industry with options: a) reduce standards or b) suffer. Hooray for control, hooray for sovereignty.
Bob Young, chief economist at the American Farm Bureau Federation, made it crystal clear that any US trade deal struck by Theresa May would be contingent on the UK public stomaching imports of US foods that it has previously rejected: beef from cattle implanted with growth hormones, chlorine-washed chicken, and unlabelled genetically modified (GM) foods.
We'll be calling the shots alright, we're the 7th largest economy in the world...
Whatever the arguments about health and standards, it must be noted that US meat is actually delicious.
unlike their chocolate
"Mutual? If you're trading with economies much larger than yours, you take what you're given to a large extent."
See my reply to Kimbers and 5plus8.
Mutual? If you're trading with economies much larger than yours, you take what you're given to a large extent."See my reply to Kimbers and 5plus8.
What did they say about this I am confused again?
"Mutual? If you're trading with economies much larger than yours, you take what you're given to a large extent."See my reply to Kimbers and 5plus8.
Which reply about this? I cam confused.
ummm sorry...
You are David Cameron and I claim my £5 €5
I've already tried that, THM is a bad payer.
Nah, you just couldn't afford my rate of interest.
[i]Whatever the arguments about health and standards, it must be noted that US meat is actually delicious. [/I]
A bit like much processed food, just don't look at the ingredients now method to 'create' it...
"Whatever the arguments about health and standards, it must be noted that US meat is actually delicious."
The only US foodstuff I regularly buy in the UK is Californian Merlot or Cab Sauv. Seems OK to me.
teamhurtmore - Member
Nah, you just couldn't afford my rate of interest.
Depends on the currencies involved and how fast the exchange rates move.
US cheese and butter is pretty disappointing.
Never yet seen any convincing sausages for sale.
The conditions that cattle are reared in are pretty grim.
Forget about lamb.
Anyone else seen the "he's lying to you footage"?
😀
At what point will it dawn on Corbyn what he's done - when the Speaker says "it's a Govt win" maybe?
So are UKIP going to be done for fraud? Suspect it's not a criminal charge in that sense but it would be nice to see Farage in an EU jail.
milleboy - Member
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38819185Great............
I refer you to my prediction a few pages back where I called this 🙂
the economy etc is just a smokescreen- we're debating it here endlessly but HMG aren't fussed- the objectives are:
-keep UKIP in check by changes to immigration
-get us out of the ECJ
....and of the two, the latter is the most important to them.