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Faisal Islam earlier "as beaming eurosceptics looked on sensing total victory" 🙂
Numerous speakers tonight stating the obvious that had the EU shown flexibility of freedom of movement the UK would most likely not be leaving the EU. It's inability to shift in responce to Europe wide concerns has lead it to this point.
For me the outstanding moment has been the SNP holding up it's 650 page book of fiction as a example of the sort of paper the Government should provide. A document which did not even answer what money people would use, a document which based the country's finances on an oil price of $110 a barrel and topically did not address how any future EU membership would look and it's timing.
Just an aside. If the 23 June last year "will be remembered as a great day in history, comparable with Agincourt and Waterloo", the two years after A50 will probably be akin the the Somme.
jambalaya - Member
Faisal Islam earlier "as beaming eurosceptics looked on sensing total victory"
And that's why Brexies are hated. In one easy quote Jamba.
Sad really.
igm you've brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread. That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.
igm you've brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread.
irony alert...
enimies of the people
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Lies, lies, lies, lies and BoJo?
If people are going to make lots of claims then run away from them the day after the result your going to have to suck it up princess. You actually went from making cast iron claims to the "not in a position to make policy statements" to "well our lie worked didn't they"
That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.
I assume you are referring to the PM in her attempts to prevent parliament doing it's job?
Numerous speakers tonight stating the obvious that had the EU shown flexibility of freedom of movement the UK would most likely not be leaving the EU. It's inability to shift in responce to Europe wide concerns has lead it to this point.
It has nothing to do with it. Its only ever been about getting rid of the ECJ, and the regulations that create a level playing field within the single market, and turning the UK into a low tax low regulation economy.
This of course this wouldn't sit at all well with the population when they find out the employment rights are going to curtailed, or funding to public services will be cut, so out comes the immigration card.
Quite how you are going to reconcile an economy that will need freedom of movement, with restrictive immigration will be part of brexits undoing. See Australia for details.
Ah once we are past the point of no return
We WILL return. We have to do some house cleaning first.
Wonder if Scotland will go for Independance now , and with election in Northen Ireland , would be interesting if Sin Fen get majority .
Brexit might be remembered for breaking up the UK .
There are zokes true, but that is different from saying that Brexies have already resorted to murder.
Well... he is a brexy, and he did murder her for her political views, which I'm assuming in his mind was an action to resort to, rather than his first point of debate. I'll accept that there are serious questions about his mental sanity, but then the same probably applies to most foaming brexiteers.
jambalaya - Member
igm you've brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread. That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.
I started off thinking that Brexies were misguided but otherwise ok.
But months of xenophobia and abuse (go back through the front pages of the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph) from Brexies, (while the remain leaning press were partisan but not abusive) changed that. The Brexy campaign was based on fear and hatred throughout.
The death threats (how many Brexies have the police had to speak to now? And some have ended up in court) and the killing changed that. I remember lots of rumours about death threats against Brexies but I don't remember anything more than rumours - I may be wrong on that.
Some Brexies (Farage for example) did not deserve abuse, he deserved to be in court on racist incitement charges. That poster with its echos of a Nazi propaganda poster was a disgrace - of course I'm sure it was just a coincidence.
And then the vote happened.
And the Brexies tried to abandon the democratic process (not all you did try and suggest just doing a parliamentary vote - but you were a minority from what I saw).
Brexies instantly in the press, in comments columns and in here started name calling - anything from moaners to traitors - against anyone (about half those who voted in reality) who disagreed with them.
And when campaigners went to court to insist the democratic process was upheld, the Brexy press abused them, abused the judges and abused anyone who supported democracy.
I have tried throughout this thread to be factual. And where there are no facts to give honest and reasonably objective opinions. I won't have managed every time.
Like I say I started off disagreeing, but the Brexies have been teaching me to hate - I am trying to resist.
But let me end on this thought. You may wish to reflect on it.
They say you can tell the character of a man by the company he keeps. Brexies may not, to a man and woman, been racists, xenophobes and thugs, but they certainly kept company with racists, xenophobes and thugs.
And that is not abuse. That is a simple factual observation.
+1 igm, with one addition:
For all the squealing brexies have made when being accused of xenophobia, it's worthwhile citing the dictionary definition of the word here:
[url= http://www.dictionary.com/browse/xenophobia ]
1) fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers:
2) fear or dislike of the customs, dress, etc., of people who are culturally different from oneself[/url]
I think it's pretty clear that most brexies have at the very least a dislike to some level of "the customs, dress, etc., of people who are culturally different from oneself".
I'm afraid if the cap fits...
"would be interesting if Sin Fen get majority"
...because they are so tolerant and understanding of people with different backgrounds.
Personally had threats from an EDL muppet on Facebook over the referendum, so that confirmed everything I suspected about many Brexiters.
no because Sin Fen would probably want to join Ireland .
Many, some, a few, a tiny percentage?
All Brexshiteers are members of the EDL
Killing was a policy of the Brexshit campaign
Wow. You learn something every day...
Us Yorkists are still waiting for our turn. Hope the level of debate will be more informed than I have witnessed so far.
Not once in the whole of these grumpy pages has one of you acknowledged the superiority of those born of the county of York. A UK/EU pox on you all.
Free Yorkshire! An it better be cheap.
IGM plus 2.
Like I say I started off disagreeing, but the Brexies have been teaching me to hate - I am trying to resist.
Step father, sister and brother-in-law all brexopaths. I couldn't bring myself to visit them last Christmas .
I continue to disagree with Brexshiteers but the recent behaviour of (a small but vocal minority of) leavers following the result makes me question and disagree with them too
"Our" behaviour is (becoming) quite unbecoming. The gutter is not a pleasant place to have a debate
Thank goodness the HoC showed us a more elevated example yesterday
THM - my turn to suggest perspective to you I think
All Brexshiteers are members of the EDL
Killing was a policy of the Brexshit campaign
Did anyone actually say this?
I have no knowledge of whether killing was a Brexy policy - my suspicion is that it wasn't.
Incitement was. And that led to one killing and many death threats - threats the police took seriously.
Are all Brexies EDL members? Doubt it. In fact I am 99.9999% certain that aren't all EDL.
But i am allowed to judge them by the company they keep and the Brexy campaign was walking shoulder to shoulder with EDL beliefs.
Wow. You learn something every day...
Indeed you do. For instance, I thought you, THM, could read and interpret information objectively, rather than flying off the handlebar deliberately misinterpreting text in some fit of childish hyperbole. Apparently not...
the Brexies have already resorted to murder.
QED
Ok so now its watered down to a policy of inciting killing. FFS guys, perspective
i hope you didnt take too long composing that zokes. i wasted three seconds reading it, that was bad enough
the Brexies have already resorted to murder.
QED
One brexy has. Do you dispute this? #alternativefacts
Ok so now its watered down to a policy of inciting killing. FFS guys, perspective
Certainly inciting hatred. At least one found enough hatred to commit murder.
i hope you didnt take too long composing that zokes. i wasted three seconds reading it, that was bad enough
Grow up.
Say what you will but the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling. As Dan Jarvis and MP after MP said being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe (posh name calling), as we've said many times the name calling worked in Leave's favour just as the bus moaning kept the focus on Leave's strong issues of EU budget and wastage.
Landslide victory tonight and White Paper tomorrow. Zero amendments passed.
i wasted three seconds reading it
There is a very simple solution for that
"Say what you will but the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling."
This.
...and it's counter productive. You can shut down an argument by calling someone a racist, but you can't win it.
Given the tightness of the vote I reckon with fact and reason instead of name calling remain would have won.
Mind you, did that many remainers really want to win? The MPs were mostly remainers now they're queuing up to vote for it.
On the other side I'm pretty sure Boris and Give didn't want to win.
being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe
That all depends why you are concerned and what it is based on.
If you are concerned about immigration because you don't want more foreigners in "your" country then that is racist. If you are concerned that the countries population is too high then you would also be for controlling the population via other means (number of children permitted etc,.) but don't hear that mentioned much?
As Dan Jarvis and MP after MP said being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe
Doesn't matter who or how many said it if they're all incorrect.
1) Why are people concerned about immigration?
2) Do any, some, or all of those reasons fall under either of the two definitions given under the dictionary entry above for the word xenophobe?
If the answer to (2) is yes, then those are xenophobic reasons. Someone using xenophobic reasons to justify their position is, by definition, a xenophobe. If they discriminate, or wish to discriminate, based upon those xenophobic reasons, then those actions may in some circumstances be considered racist.
the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling
There is a point where even the most reasoned individual cannot deal with an incessant barrage of complete untruths and wilful disinformation posted to deliberately de-rail a debate. There is also a point where if someone continually posts demonstrable falsehoods then they and their argument become one and the same, and equally open to criticism or rebuke. As you crossed that boundary a long time ago, you shouldn't be surprised by what follows.
If you are concerned that the countries population is too high then you would also be for controlling the population via other means (number of children permitted etc,.) but don't hear that mentioned much?
If you suggest population control by limiting incomers you get called a racist. If you suggest population control by limiting family numbers you get called a Nazi - the angst is far worse.
I'm not a brexiter but I am in favour of population control by both limiting immigration *and* limiting family numbers, I rarely admit to the former in conversation and I would never dare admit to the latter. There are some things you can't say.
Interestingly, although 90pc of my friends would go ballistic if I admitted the above, they *all* object to any new build planning applications in our area and campaign accordingly.
But i am allowed to judge them by the company they keep and the Brexy campaign was walking shoulder to shoulder with EDL beliefs.
Well in that case I think we can all agree that the Nazis believed in a united Europe, so can we tar the remain campaign with the same brush?
Well in that case I think we can all agree that the Nazis believed in a united Europe, so can we tar the remain campaign with the same brush?
...and nobody will ever better them in terms of moving Labour between countries.
I suppose the big difference between the Nazi view of a United Europe and the EU view is that the Nazis wanted it to be dominated by Germany... Oh hang on...
Brexie snowflakes 😉 complaining about namecalling?
the problem is that the rightwing press have been able to spout xenophobic nonsense for decades (thanks to an an impotent PCC)
from health tourism to bendy bananas
making fertile ground for UKIP and the staright up lies of Vote Leave
to scapegoat the EU for our own government failings
its happy days if you are a racist, Brexit & Trump, LePenn the politics of hate and the alt-right are a powerful lure to those whove been left behind by their own governments
On name calling… this just brings us back to…
[b][i]"It's not about immigrants"
"It's all about immigrants"[/i][/b]
Suggest that fear of immigrants, or blaming of immigrants, or, at its very worst, hatred of immigrants, are core motivations for many people who voted Leave, and you are accused of name calling.
Suggest that a Leave vote was not a mandate to stop FoM, and you are accused of trying to subvert democracy.
So… Leave… is it not about immigrants… is it all about immigrants…?
ooohh can I just add that my favourite insult of the alt-right (they use it on here a bit) is 'Virtue Signalling'
because signalling that you are virtuous is obviously a bad thing 🙄
On name calling… this just brings us back to…"It's not about immigrants"
"It's all about immigrants"Suggest that fear of immigrants, or blaming of immigrants, or, at it's very worst, hatred of immigrants are core motivations for many people who voted Leave, and you are accused of name calling,
Suggest that a Leave vote was not a mandate to stop FoM, and you are accused of trying to subvert democracy.
So… Leave… is it not about immigrants… is it all about immigrants…?
False dichotomy. It can be all about immigration, without being all about immigrants.
They recently built 5000 homes near me. Everyone was up in arms. We didn't want 5000 new families crowding out our already crowded area.
We didn't have any personal issue with the people moving in, but we didn't want them there all the same.
In the same way, if they built 5000 and sold them to Eskimos, we'd still be against it. But it wouldn't be a problem with Eskimos.
And yes, people would point out the economic benefit we got. The near worthless agricultural land near us is now worth many many millions.
But none that matters, if you're arguing with a racist, calling him a racist *still* doesn't help win the argument. You have to explain the the benefits and hope that overcomes his dislike of the race in question. It won't always, but just stating "You are a racist" definitely won't.
Trying to guess people's motives never wins an argument - they know what their motives are, you don't need to guess and tell them what your guess is.
because signalling that you are virtuous is obviously a bad thing
It's bad if what you're asking for is unworkable.
The time to worry about whether it is counter productive to call xenophobes and racists out for being xenophobic and racist is as you say Jamba gone.
Now is the time to start stamping on xenophobia and racism every time you see it.
Ninfan - I'm calling you out as a barrack room lawyer. And not a good one as by your logic all nazis would be Romans. Fool
"Now is the time to start stamping on xenophobia and racism every time you see it."
Very commendable. Can you give me an example of you doing that recently, being really specific about what the racism was and what your stamping consisted of.
some good points from Ivan Rogers putting the
'we should just leave now' brexies in their place
He says a lot of single market access depends upon trade being certified by bodies that the UK will not recognise after Brexit. So access to the single market will automatically lapse without new agreements.For example, medicines authorised by EU bodies will not be able to go on sale after Brexit without that authorisation.
If the UK walks away without a deal, and is reliant on WTO terms, you need to understand what that means.
[i]If the UK walks away without a deal, and is reliant on WTO terms, you need to understand what that means.[/I]
Yep, been saying it every since whichever idiot it was that said we'd go WTO 'terms'.
And now go look at the implication on agricultural export under WTO. Who's going to give up quota's to enable us to sell back into the EU?
Do you dispute this?
No, I am disputing the idea that Brexies have already resorted to murder. You appear to be struggling with that and the core issues under debate here.
grow up
Ok, but how will I be able to engage with you then?
That all depends why you are concerned and what it is based on.
Indeed, the concerns expressed had no factual basis and we based purely on an irrational fear of foreigners ie, xenophobia. It was a very clear example, about as clear as you could get.
From Bank's book
I’m clear how we can help win the referendum: by acting as the provisional wing of the Brexit campaign, doing and saying the things that, as leader of Britain’s third biggest political party, Nigel can’t. I’ve told him my priority will be to put immigration at the heart of the debate and engage millions of voters who dislike and distrust the political classes.........‘Let’s shake this up,’ I said cheerfully. ‘The more outrageous we are, the more attention we’ll get; the more attention we get, the more outrageous we’ll be.’ He (NF) looked a little unconvinced by this strategy. ‘Only time will tell if you and Wigmore are geniuses or complete idiots,’ he said.
Both?
OOB - given it will be easy for you to check, you will find examples on this very thread where I have suggested to individuals that they might want to reconsider their words as the potential to be interpreted as xenophobic / racist was there. Gentle stamping perhaps, but language was moderated - for a bit at least.
teamhurtmore - Member
Do you dispute this?
No, I am disputing the idea that Brexies have already resorted to murder. You appear to be struggling with that and the core issues under debate here.
He is a Brexy. He resorted to murder. As you say, QED.
[b]outofbreath[/b], does it matter to you if your new neighbours are from Yorkshire, or Linconshire? Now, does it matter to you if they are from England or Poland? Questioning people's motivation is essential when looking at these things. Why do we not have calls for more controls over people moving within a country, only between them?
IGM, you will find examples on this very thread where I have suggested to individuals that they might want to reconsider their words as the potential to be interpreted as joining the Brexshiteers in excess hyperbole was there. Gentle stamping perhaps, but language still not moderated - not for now at least.
There is time.
(a wee jpke IGM, not that I am suggesting that you are demonstrating other friend's lack of basic comprehension)
OOB - trying to convince racists because calling them racist won't help you win the argument.
The racists have already won the argument. It doesn't matter anymore. Time to be honest with them.
Questioning people's motivation is essential when looking at these things.
How?
Why do we not have calls for more controls over people moving within a country, only between them?
We do. In the last two places I live the common complaint is "They keep forcing the overspill from London on us.".