[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

"I've already answered this question."

You appear to be allowing yourself to be lured into a debate about whether a poll intended to measure opinion was an opinion poll or not. 😀

As you say, call it a cheese sandwich it really doesn't matter, it doesn't compel the Govt to do a thing.

How so? Your comment is factually incorrect.

Excuse me, I missed the name. Can you repeat it for me?

NW, ask Mark, I have no idea. OOI, what do you think took place on 23/6/16?

Why don't you humour me and list yours?

I don't need to justify my decision (I've posted in the past on it) nobody needs to justify it, because it's irrelevant, it's in the past, it's pining for the fjords, it's an ex-issue, it doesn't matter.

we voted, we voted to leave, it's a political reality that you can't now put back in the box.

We were all told beforehand told that whatever the outcome, the government would follow it, and they are.

Yes you're [b]still[/b] fighting the reasoning/justification/logic - none of it matters, it stopped mattering at the moment the polls closed.

presumably England & Wales will have no problem leaving the Union so Scotland can stay in the EU?

Sounds good to me - you do realise that on that basis only E&W get to vote on the issue though, right?

Question: Do you want to leave the UK so Scotland can remain in the EU?
Answers: Yes - set them free. NO - Drag them down with us

It's 632 pages in and the vote was to leave. Gerrrrroveriiiitt.

Vote???? It was only an opinion poll ATP (apparently)

teamhurtmore - Member

NW, ask Mark, I have no idea. OOI, what do you think took place on 23/6/16?

An advisory, nonbinding referendum.

So, what's the practical difference between a nonbinding, advisory referendum and an opinion poll then?

It's 632 pages in and the vote was to leave. Gerrrrroveriiiitt.

So, what's the practical difference between a nonbinding, advisory referendum and an opinion poll then?

One of the two the government pledged to enact the outcome of.

So, what's the practical difference between a nonbinding, advisory referendum and an opinion poll then?

Opinion poll asks 1-2,000 people then uses smoke and mirros to adjust the "results". Referendum was 35,000,000

Largest democratic excersize this country has even seen, higher turnnout than at a General Election (?)

The people that didn't vote on 23rd June where saying, we will go with the flow - you decide for us.

The Remainers are perfectly entitled to campaign for us re-joining, they can campaign for it in 2020, 2025 etc

As I have said many times the I expect the Remaines to go very quiet when the eurozone hits the buffers hard over excessive government debt

@Edukator apart from the fact the PS are going to be a distant 4th how does M expect to pay for the Universal income ? Note everyone in the EU will be entitled to arrive and claim it - no ?

[i]Sounds good to me - you do realise that on that basis only E&W get to vote on the issue though, right?

Question: Do you want to leave the UK so Scotland can remain in the EU?
Answers:
Yes - set them free.
No - Drag them down with us
[/i]

Absolutely, either way we get independence just the second way we'll have to declare UDI and appeal to EU for 'clemency' 🙂

Jambas, you say this many times despite the fact that our membership of the EU has no impact on the impact of this event.

NW, thank you, a nice defintion, as a bright guy, I know that you know the answer to the second question.

I don't need to justify my decision (I've posted in the past on it)

I'm not asking you to justify anything, I'm offering you the chance to persuade me that I'm wrong (or at best, asking you to put my mind at rest). Whilst I have read this entire thread, you'll forgive me hopefully if I don't wade back through twenty-two thousand posts looking for an answer.

teamhurtmore - Member

NW, thank you, a nice defintion, as a bright guy, I know that you know the answer to the second question.

I'm asking you. Do you not have an answer?

Of course it has an impact if for no orher reasons other than subset;

we need to ween ourselves off our trade with the EU as it will be much weaker in the future
budget confributions are based on relative economic strength
Immigration would go through the roof with a eurozone in even deeper crises
We [b]will[/b] be roped in to the bailout/recovery funds etc etc
In the event (when) the eurozone collapses we need to be free to respond quickly with regard to global trade and to do so in OUR best interests via freedom to negotiate bilateral trade deals independent of the 27

Yes, it'll like apples and a pears. As you iknow dangerous to mix the two up unless you want a pudding

Having skim read the 97 pages of the supreme court ruling I am had that they are not focused on domestic/culinary issues and prefer to focus on what needs to be done in order to move on

"One of the two the government pledged to enact the outcome of."

A problem that was solved with the resignation of Cameron.

Governments break promises all the time.

Thats ok then....carry on

One of the two the government pledged to enact the outcome of.

We pay for most of it already, Jamba, a fairer distribution is what's initially needed. You perhaps missed the "progressive introduction" part.

We'll see about the distant 4th. If Hamond is it will be just behind Fillon.

Who will centre left/centre right vote for - imo Macon. You are right of course we won't really know till April

Mrs B tells me estimated cost is €500bn, no way that's already "factored in / paid for"

How do you stop the entire EU turning up under the Lisbon Treaty with the legal right to be treated as a French citizen would ?

So you are beginning to take Macron seriously. 🙂

Ask the Finns about how they cope with the mass of migration their universal income has created (not).

I'm offering you the chance to persuade me that I'm wrong

I don't need to persuade you

It's the 17,410,742 that were persuaded that matter.

#Disunity

These Brexies couldn't bring the country together if they... well they're just not going to be able to are they?

😆

Face it ninfan, the only difference between you traitorous Brexies and the honest remainder patriots is that we know we lost, and it hasn't dawned on you yet that you lost too.

😀

Zokes, perhaps the reason we lost is a tendency to lose perspective as you wilder comments highlight. By 2020, our economy is likely to be somewhere around 4% smaller than it would otherwise have been. [b][u]OK, not good but not a disaster[/u][/b]. Behind this will be more costly trade and investment. Sad but true, but this is not a rogering, it is merely an avoidable deviation from a trend. We will survive.

You say that so blithely I think you almost believe it yourself. I've emboldened and underlined the important bit.

For the country as a whole, perhaps not. But the country is not one homogeneous entity so that this 4% would be lost equally by all. Rather, certain parts of it, including parts that matter to me an awful lot, such as scientific research, will be impacted to a much greater extent. This is even more acute if you happen to be involved with any form of research that isn't immediately linked to industry, e.g. environmental, ecological or agricultural research.

But as molgrips has already pointed out, it's not just the financial cost, which I'm guessing given your change of tone you've worked out how to dodge. It's also things like the right to live and work where you choose amongst at least 27 other countries. The right for people who you may know or even love to stay in the UK.

Those are but two of the reasons why I'm still angry. Without a hint of hyperbole, Brexit has been the singularly worst political decision to affect me in the 33 years of my life, and by some margin. Some could dismiss that as "first world problems". Perhaps they'd be right. But we live in the first world, and this is a particularly vexatious and self-inflicted problem that can still be avoided if a few hundred men and women sitting on green benches would just do what they're paid for and act in this country's best interests.

You are guessing incorrectly

The referendum (see what I did there) had a significantly detrimental impact on my life in 2016. But one person'/misfortune should not be allowed to overrule the decision of the the majority. The would be extremely selfish.

Are you sure that your final line should not end with your best interests?

Edukator isn't the Finnish one a trial of a subset of the long term unemployed ? 2000 people ? BFM poll below.

Le pen 25
Fillon 22
Macron 21
Hamon 15
Melenchon 3.5
Dupont ?

I don't need to persuade you

It's the 17,410,742 that were persuaded that matter.

So you still don't have an answer then? We're leaving Europe because yay numbers?

C'mon man, it's surely not a difficult question.

The referendum (see what I did there) had a significantly detrimental impact on my life in 2016.

Any business worth doing in H1 2016 is worth doing in H2 2016 and moving in Q4 2019 if necessary, no ? EU cost my business a huge amount 2014-15, all significant players are now outside EU jurisdiction, billions in AUM. I tried to get mine moved to the US but was told regulatory oversight would still be EU based on firm's HQ. What's doubly galling is that EU investors bypass rules by investing via Lichtenstein.

The referendum (see what I did there) had a significantly detrimental impact on my life in 2016. But one person'/misfortune should not be allowed to overrule the decision of the the majority. The would be extremely selfish.

But it's not one person's misfortune is it? It's on average everyone's misfortune to the tune of 4-6%, and as I've said already, that really underplays the far more acute effect that it will have on an awful lot of people.

By all means roll over and let Jamby tickle your tummy, but don't be surprised if many of us do not, for the reasons I've already clearly stated.

If we're in the business of not challenging what's not right, I assume you're wholly happy with all of Trump's decisions so far, as he won an election, so nothing he does should be questioned? It'll be interesting if you aren't, given that he did at least win an election, which is not what the non-binding advisory referendum in June was. Far from it, in fact.

I am not rolling over, I am respecting the decision and getting on with things. I would suggest that you do the same. We are leaving the EU. Get ready, that is not going away..

I am also studying how the Brexshiteers won. This is important if we are to prevent a repetition. That's practical, whining and obstructing democracy isn't.

C'mon man, it's surely not a difficult question.

Fortunately we didn't just ask you and me, we asked forty six and a half million people a pretty simple binary question about whether they wanted to stay, or leave, of which about 3/4 could be arsed to have an opinion - and the majority agreed with me, and the minority agreed with you.

Move on man

I am not rolling over, I am respecting the decision

No decision was made. An advisory referendum, fought on grossly misleading lines, delivered a result for consideration. Nothing more has happened. You can accept May et al trying to tell you otherwise, but that won't change this subtle fact.

getting on with things.

I too am getting on with things. It is possible to both campaign against this madness and also to get on with things at the same time.

Move on man

Would you have moved on were the result reversed, or if there is a second referendum that reverses it? After all, the people would have spoken, even if some had changed their minds.

Well good luck with life/work and with overturning the democratic process.

Well good luck with life/work and with overturning the democratic process.

Your first version was better #ninjaedit

I'm not campaigning to overturn the democratic process, as I've already made clear. We've had a glorified opinion poll and a lot of waffling by some people in positions requiring far greater skill than they appear to possess (Davis et al., I'm talking about you). We've also had a legal battle to ensure that democratic process is actually followed. But, and this is the important bit, the democratic process surrounding this has yet to begin. I don't doubt a lot of the rabid Tories will try to undermine this when it happens, as is their wont, but don't be mistaken into thinking that legally or democratically we're under any more obligation to leave the EU now than we were on 22nd June. I'll concede that the referendum definitely raises a moral requirement for the government to have a grown up discussion about the pros and cons of EU membership, but it has no legal standing whatsoever, certainly not to actually go through with a self-styled hard brexit.

THM - always remember that the whole point of the democratic process is to overturn last democratic decision. Otherwise we'd elect MPs / PMs for life.

Ninfan - that vote was in the past. It's the next vote that matters. And the one after that. And so on. Democracy didn't suddenly stop at 10pm last June 23rd - time to fight the next battle. And if that is lost then the one after that.
And do stop harping on about soon to be ancient history like a broken record.

zokes is right.

I'm not campaigning to overturn the democratic process, as I've already made clear.

You are. Thats clear.

But keep believing that stuff if it makes you feel better (in ignoring the result. )

Being honest would be better

Democracy didn't suddenly stop at 10pm last June 23rd -

Let's keep it that way then

You are. Thats clear.

But keep believing that stuff if it makes you feel better (in ignoring the result. )

You may want to twist it all you want but lets not let that get in the way of the actual facts.
#alternatefacts

a pretty simple binary question

Only an idiot would call it a simple question. Sorry for the passive aggression but it's true.

The democratic process has been stitched up.

And personally, I won't move on. Our country is being screwed as I type this, it will be being screwed for many years after this. My rights are being eroded. My country is being diminished. The democratic process surely demands my point of view is listened to when this is what's at stake?

We all know the basis of the referendum. The government laid it out clearly and sent it out to every household. It's is disingenuous in the extreme to ignore that. That is the alternative fact.

The final decision will be made by parliament. It requires an Act to be passed. It will be.

So at no point are we trying to subvert democracy (that was what the PM was doing) we are free to lobby and petition MP's up until the vote - they will vote as the wish. One step at a time.

Democracy requires an informed electorate. Onthis as on many other issues there was a misinformed electorate with outright lies from many campaigners and a 20 year campaign of lies from the majority of the press

Define "informed" - give the number of factual inaccuracies that you post here, you might be ruling yourself out. Be careful what you wish for.

It's is disingenuous in the extreme to ignore that.

I would never have ignord it. It should have been the starting point for a proper debate and constructive *democratic* process.

Democracy should not be rule by plebiscite. That's utterly insane. As TJ says, and I have said many times - democracy only gives good results if the public take their responsibilty seriously and learn about the issues. They didn't - we know this. So there's no point in holding up majority vote as some kind of golden rule.

That's what parliament is for.