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[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

 igm
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Aren't Jaguar Indian owned Edukator? Tata? Who own steel works in the UK as well as Tetley tea and JLR?


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:47 am
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1. FX rates should be free to adjust to economic factors
2. Badly designed exchange rate mechanisms always fail - it is only a matter of time that differentiates them
3. In the meantime, they create economic and social havoc

Imagine a central heating systems that has increased pressure but no release valve. What happens.

Tackle the cures of FX volatility, don't hide them away.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:47 am
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Oh a negative and factually incorrect contribution from TJ. Groundhog day.

Only those who truly hate Scotland would wish what the desperate SNP are proposing. Scotphiles in contact understand what is in their best interests.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:50 am
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You're probably right, igm, I haven't followed recently. What I'm certain of is that currency fluctuations were a major headache for Jaguar which made them a take-over target each time sales dipped. They were taken over and have been someone else' pawn since - along with the workers.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:51 am
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THM you're as quick to accuse others of deceit as you are to resort to deceit


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:53 am
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I agree maty, the leavers did not put forward a coherent or honest case. But they won. in return we got to see what kind of country we really live in rather than the one we hoped we lived in. It's not a pleasant sight is it?


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:54 am
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You are correct Edukator - I have published research on Jaguar. For many years back in the 80s they were a one product/one market company that was highly exposed to the £/$ exchange rate. There were lots of other problems that Egan had to deal with at the time of the big restructuring of the time.

But yes, if you are reliant on one market you will be naturally exposed to FX fluctuations which is not a good thing. That's is why givernments should tackle to causes not the symptoms. Companies can minimise the risk via hedging too or by diversifying.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:58 am
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Compare the the "[i]economic and social havoc[/i]" in the Eurozone countries before and after the establishment of the Euro (and the FX fixing mechanisms that prepared for it). The Euro has problems, and as you point out all FX fixing creates problems, but painting the alternative as having fewer, or less serious, problems is an assertion many would question.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:00 am
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Indeed kelvin, the root problem (among many) was uncompetitive labour markets. But that requires joined up thinking to address. Devaluation is not a panacea either as it has other consequences - that's the beauty of economics there is no such thing as a free lunch whatever politicians pretend. But I disagree, since a fixed exchange rate does lead to worse scenarios and amplifies economic cycles. That is a proven.

But and its a very big BUT, if you chose to fix your exchange rate then there can only be two outcomes to this situation - wage deflation and/or unemployment. We have witnessed both on a catastrophic scale. Why would you wish that on anyone?


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:04 am
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EUR:USD volatility has been just as high as GBP:USD vol so no help to Jaguar there. The British economy has learnt alot from foreign ownership, benefits outweigh downsides.

Indeed, Tata own Jaguar now. The Tetley acquisition was the first foreign acquisition by an Indian company.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:21 am
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EUR:USD volatility has been just as high as GBP:USD vol so no help to Jaguar there. The Britsh econmomy has learnt alot from foreign ownership, benefits outweigh downsides.

+1 esp the second bit.

Xenophobia is bad for Britain


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:23 am
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uncompetitive labour markets

I'm really happy that French labour market can't compete with the latest low-cost impoverished developing-world country. Or even with social-dumping Britain. This is one positive I see in Brexit with my French hat on. It's also something I agree with Trump on, a nation or trading zone that doesn't protect its national/trading zone workers' jobs/working conditions with tarifs and trade restrictions will soon become a production desert or as dreadful a place to work as the developing nation.

As for maintaining jobs through technological lead and excellence, we've behind! The Chinese can do most everything we do better. In 1978 they built a whole new technological city in the desert that now has a population of 12 million and French hi-tech entrepreneurs are flocking there rather than Silicon Valley because Silicon valley is slower, more expensive and lagging behind technologically.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:29 am
 br
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Ok, but how could NOT have financial implications?

Comment at 1235

[I]Financial implications of the Bill
22 The Bill is not expected to have any financial implications.[/I]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/26/brexit-article-5-bill-david-davis-theresa-may-accused-of-grovelling-after-praising-trump-for-renewing-america-politics-live


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 1:45 pm
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Why is fast-tracking necessary?

11 The judgment of 24 January 2017 required the Government to complete an additional (and unexpected) step before the formal process of leaving the European Union can commence. Completing this step through the normal Bill timetable would cause considerable delay to commencing the formal exit process, making it impossible to do so before the end of March 2017. This would further generate uncertainty as to the timetable for our exit from the European Union.

Or because we really don't want any of those awkward questions. Which is why we tried to get round having to do this and now that we wasted all that time we are going to miss our own timeline (which is all of the plan really) unless we just skip past the formalities....
All in given the complete debacle so far and the lack of any comprehensive (or even vague) strategy why would you not just sign a blank cheque to this lot...


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 1:51 pm
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Good. Nice tight bill. Almost got it onto two lines.

They are getting the hang of this now,


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 1:57 pm
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Odd how there are no comments from the Remainers here now we have the A50 Bill and Labour has announced a three line whip to ensure it's passed 8)

Did I say the entire EU would collapse or that I want it to ? I don't think so. It's fundamentally broken and require wholesale change but the core members are too tied to it politically to allow it to disintergrate. The euro will change, it cannot continue. @Edukator the issue with what you call eurobonds is that Germany quite rightly has no enthusiasm for being liable for the debts (and total loack of financial discipline) of Southern Europe.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 8:20 pm
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Ok I'll bite. One countries lack of financial discipline as another's creative accounting.

A few Lab MPs have announced they'll defy the whip and few have announced they will tow the line.

The party is ruined and really should reform as two new parties, an opposition that acts like a box full of angry cats is not doing anyone any favours. Who knows how they will vote on the day.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 8:33 pm
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Odd how there are no comments from the Remainers here now we have the A50 Bill and Labour has announced a three line whip to ensure it's passed

Eh? What were you expecting? And what are you inferring?


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 8:38 pm
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Odd how you can't get your head around that most remainers have accepted that 50 is going to get fired, it is a truly stupid thing to do but as you are a Trump fan and don't mind getting on your knees to guzzle from Donald then keep gloating over your support for this disaster.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 8:39 pm
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That is when the hard work begins.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 8:54 pm
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Nothing to bite on. We've covered the role of MPs over and over already. Nothing has changed. We still expect nothing useful from the majority of them. We've covered Labour's predicament, and the failure of their leader, in boring detail, from the very start of the campaign.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:02 pm
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@Edukator the issue with what you call eurobonds is that Germany quite wrongly has no enthusiasm for being recycling its surpluses to the deficit countries of Southern Europe preferring to hide behind the mirage of German financial discipline.

FTFY

Hence the system is bust at its core. Not that this is a reason to stop being a member, outside of the € and Shengen etc. Still that horse has bolted now.

Jezza's done well today - only one resignation from his front bench. He must have feared more from the whipping. Why do visions of Diane Abbot suddenly spring to mind?


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:10 pm
 igm
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jambalaya - Member
Odd how there are no comments from the Remainers here now we have the A50 Bill and Labour has announced a three line whip to ensure it's passed

Mainly because I for one am waiting to see what actually happens.
We're told 50 labour rebels minimum plus some tories - we'll see.
We're told Corbyn won't oppose it but will propose amendments - again, we'll see.
And we know that the libdems and SNP will propose amendments - we'll see how many are deemed to be more than vexatious time wasting.
So really today is just the opening of the piece- whether it's long or short remains to be seen.
It could all be over by early next week and this country will have committed another act of self harm.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:22 pm
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If there are too many amendments, the gov will simply use the guillotine. They are making the timetable a key performance indicator.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:37 pm
 igm
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Indeed. Some might still get through though.

Now remind me. Can the parliament act be used on this bill? I seem to recall it can't but I'm not certain.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:40 pm
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MPs are in general reflecting their constituencies. Seems perfectly reasonable to me 😉 The notion that somehow Brexit is a Government policy which should be contested by the opposition is wrong. It's a cross party issue.

Corbyn's 3-line whipping shows his true EU colours too, he has always been against. A true left wing agenda isn't possible whilst being a member of the EU.

Supposedly Blair was cozying up to Junker yesterday (after a Holocaust memorial event he was invited to speak at)


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:40 pm
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No amendments will get through imho. Far too many will vote for, we already have the "Labour Bill" and a commitment for a White Paper by May - sort of literally, after March and before June 🙂


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:42 pm
 igm
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jambalaya - Member
MPs are in general reflecting their constituencies. Seems perfectly reasonable to me

There are worse things I suppose. Unfortunately we have Julian "alternative referendum facts" Sturdy here. He is currently denying which way his constituency voted.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:44 pm
 igm
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You may be right Jamba. But a very sad day for our country and our children is it goes through as is (not great if it goes through at all).
The Brexies will have ruined a once great country. They will never be forgiven.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 9:46 pm
 br
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+1 iigm

Most folk will have to get use to an ongoing drop in their living standards...


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:03 pm
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You know I think very differently, this will be the making of our country and a much brighter future for our country for my kids and grandkids.

My original gybe at Remainers is we have had months of court / high court nonsense and now we see the result - an uktra short bill and a 3-line Labour whip. All for nought really (and @Mike is quite right to have asked why this didn't happen months ago without a court case)


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:04 pm
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Quick reminder the pm's constituency voted remain. I assume she will vote against the bill.
Some days you would think the vote was a landslide majority....

What it really means is coming out in the excitement of a few here. Leave at any cost, no matter the cost leaving is all that matters.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:05 pm
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"What it really means is coming out in the excitement of a few here. Leave at any cost, no matter the cost leaving is all that matters."

Ruining the UK isn't a vote winner so what it really means is that some better informed people have looked at the facts and reckon it's not going to be too problematic.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:18 pm
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Ruining the UK isn't a vote winner so what it really means is that some better informed people have looked at the facts and reckon it's not going to be too problematic.

Excuse me while I take a moment here...
Find me one of those experts. Let's see how the vote goes, anyway as nobody has seen the plan even the mp's who in reality don't know what sort of leap into the dark they are voting for (except for a tory lead ideological hard brexit) I think your just making shit up.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:23 pm
 br
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Jamba

You seem to see this as a party political thing, it isn't, it's proper stuff this and quite frankly I don't care what Corbin says either as he's as ideological crackers as Davis and Fox and co.

Real world impact will be huge on the average worker and eventually even the pensioners will be hit as we'll not have the cash and won't be able to borrow it (and the Tories have shown themselves to like to borrow, how bigs the debt mountain now?).


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:30 pm
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My original gybe at Remainers is we have had months of court / high court nonsense

Hang on. Nonsense? You don't care about due process of law? You want whatever PM happens to be in power to be able to do whatever they want without scrutiny?

Like hell you do. You are just heavily biased towards 'your' side so you just cheer them on regardless.

Very poor show.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:36 pm
 AD
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I honestly wish I had the same blind faith as the brexiteers on here 🙂
Life must just be fab! Although presumably you need to be wary of buying any magic beans from random street vendors.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:39 pm
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jambalaya - Member
No amendments will get through imho. Far too many will vote for, we already have the "Labour Bill" and a commitment for a White Paper by May - sort of literally

Sort of literally? Say what now?

Why wouldn't MPs force amendments, the white paper is more vague than vague Mc Vaguey face from from vaguesvilles academy of experts in vaguenes.

Given the gravity of the situation, MPs would be irresponsible and abhorrent not to force amendments.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:43 pm
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My original gybe at Remainers is we have had months of court / high court nonsense... ...and @Mike is quite right to have asked why this didn't happen months ago without a court case)

Hang on. Nonsense? You don't care about due process of law?

It didn't happen months ago without a court case because someone made it a court case. Which was upheld. Twice.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:47 pm
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Molgrips +1


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 10:47 pm
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Why wouldn't MPs force amendments, the white paper is more vague than vague Mc Vaguey face from from vaguesvilles academy of experts in vaguenes.

Is it? How can you be so sure when it hasnt been published yet.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:16 pm
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Is it? How can you be so sure when it hasnt been published yet.

Dude... it's all over the internet...sigh.
EDIT.. sorry I'm confusing Bill with white paper..

The bill isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Which isn't saying much considering the volatility of currency right now.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:31 pm
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There has been an extraordinary shift in this debate. Before the vote, it was the Brexshiteers making crap up. Now the whole thing has flipped on its head and it's remainers who have taken over the BS role.

What is the world coming to?

It's odd when May comes out looking like one of the few sane people left, despite her track record.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:37 pm
 igm
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May could have accepted the original verdict.

Displaying a lack of judgement she wasted my taxes on going back to court.

You are right Jamba. This verdict changes nothing- we had the decision before Christmas. Just a Brexy government wasting money. Something we'll have to get used to.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:40 pm
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Now the whole thing has flipped on its head and it's remainers who have taken over the BS role.

Really??
I'd be 99% confident that the white paper holds no more useful information than one of May's massive speaches.
What else is being made up THM?
You seem to have your own reasons for wanting to do this as fast as possible, I get the uncertainty part but also going in completely unprepared (as I pointed out there was a select comittee talking to business leaders this week - no reports from that yet) understaffed on negotiators is a big leap.

Many of us are also deeply uncomfortable giving an exceptional amount of power to what will effectivly be an unacountable group of people with no oversight from parliament.


 
Posted : 26/01/2017 11:42 pm
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